Diablo III

[Gormongous]

I think the goal was to eliminate that decision paralysis that often occurs in Diablo II where you just don't really have a very good sense of what your skill and attribute points will mean long term unless you figure a bunch of stuff out or find a build online, in which case you yourself aren't making many meaningful decisions in the first place. The intended experience of Diablo II is obviously that you just upgrade yourself as you go along and make interesting decisions all along the way, but it becomes pretty obvious as you play the game that doing so has the potential to waste a ton of points due to a lack of information or foresight. This is particularly true with attributes. For any given character build, there is clearly a pretty objectively "perfect" attribute allocation, depending on the needs of the skills and equipment you have, so if you want to actually do the best thing for your character, once again, there aren't a lot of meaningful choices for you to make.

And the "optimal" stat distributions were really counter-intuitive, too. Every class except the Sorceress had to pour pretty much all its points into Vitality, since every other stat started experiencing vastly diminishing returns past 50 or 60.

I don't really miss that, I just miss the feeling that having a lot of moving parts exposed and within reach gave me. I should probably just finish my second The Witcher 2 playthrough if that's what I'm craving, though.

[Hero Protagonist]

So, I don't know if any of you guys have progressed into the Nightmare+ difficulties, but has anyone else noticed that you're basically punished for playing melee on the higher difficulties? Been running Inferno on my monk, and following Act I it's like an exercise in futility. On my monk I am basically required to stack defensive stats, and run 5 defensive skills and basically just use my basic attacks to whittle away massive health pools. Meanwhile on my Wizard I can pretty much kite everything and claim victory, some of the faster creatures in act II can swarm me, but only if I screw up.

[Twig]

Oh god, playing my hardcore WD, ran into a group of FIRE CHAIN VAMPIRIC BURROWERS on nightmare. You know burrowers. Those little annoying fuckers who run super fast and... burrow underground only to appear in a seemingly random spot moments later? FIRE. CHAIN.

But that's not the problem. I was ever-so-slowly whittling away at their health pools. The problem was when I lost connection to the server. I panicked a bit, it's true. Fortunately, I didn't die. Logged back into ol' Twubby and was still alive. But, yeah, I dunno if I'll play again for a while after that scare. D:

[Gwardinen]

In a tirade earlier today, a friend of mine said, "You don't have characters in Diablo III, you have equipment." My gut reaction was to disagree, but it's pretty much true. Once you get past the class selection screen, you're pretty much done customizing your character, especially since you can literally change your skills any time you want, as long as they're not on cooldown.

I dunno, I feel like that makes that less true. In the most recent PC Gamer UK podcast, one of the writers was talking about how runes being changed from being special loot to just part of the levelling system made him less excited about loot but more excited about skills, and I completely agree. I was going to respond with that anyway to your earlier post about how it might have been preferable to have runes be loot still - I definitely agree that it would have made that crap that falls out of monsters more interesting, but I also agree with the PC Gamer guy that it would have made levelling up much less interesting. So I really don't know what I would have found preferable in the end.

What it does mean, though, is that Diablo III is much more about your character than either of the previous games in the series, and much less about your equipment. It might still be a fair accusation to level at the game, but overall I think Blizzard has moved to combat that much more than anyone thought it would. I barely look at the stats of the gear I find, but every level or two I agonise over which skills I should take and with which runes. I think I've shifted my entire playstyle at least two or three times each on my Demon Hunter and Witch Doctor, and they're not even past level 20 yet.

That said, since Blizzard has honed talent trees into a fine art on WoW I think the game may well have been improved by incorporating that alongside the current quicksilver skill system. I definitely have no interest in putting points into stats, and as has been mentioned that almost always just becomes a way for you to either follow the optimal build or be weaker anyway, but a branching tree of extra minor abilities/passives likely wouldn't have gone amiss for a bit more customisation.

[Twig]

What it does mean, though, is that Diablo III is much more about your character than either of the previous games in the series, and much less about your equipment.

I don't see how. Every class of the same level is on the same footing at all times, outside of loot. Your character is defined by your loot, rather than by the choices you make in character development, mostly because there is no character development. Sure, you can pick from a set list of skills and a set list of modifiers for those skills that can be changed literally any time you wan, but that's... not what I would consider a good sense of investment in character.

Also, if you're not looking at the stats for your items, you, uh, have you been to nightmare mode? You say you're only level 20, so I already know the answer to that question. Maybe it's different when you don't play hardcore, but I worry a LOT about my stats - I know I need a ton of vitality and a not-so-ton of intelligence for health and damage respectively - and not so much about my skills. As a witch doctor, I almost never change my skills unless I've leveled up and gotten that rune that finally makes that skill worthwhile.

I have no idea how you could possibly believe that your character in D2 is somehow less important than your character in D3, respective to their gear. Gear is absolutely more important than character in both games, as no matter how perfectly statted/skilled your character is, you still need good gear, but it's significantly moreso in D3. Which is further disappointing due to the gear being far less interesting than it was in D2. Less gems to work with, can't add sockets to gear if I want, no gambling, no set items until late game (actually this last one I'm not so upset about, as who the fuck ever actually completed a set as they were leveling up?)... They even opted to leave out the third artisan that would have added enchanting to the game!

ughhhhhhhh

[Gwardinen]

Really? I've had more of a sense of progress in D3 than in any other game I've played recently apart from Dark Souls. The fact that I'm literally using completely different abilities and tactics now than I was three levels ago, let alone at the start of the game, is really interesting to me. Contrast that to WoW, for example, where if you pick a mage you get a fireball as your first spell and you will still be using that spell at level 85 when fighting the biggest bosses in the game. It's not even just that you have the option to still be using the same spell - you will have to. I've actually been told that Blizzard has potentially changed some of that stuff in recent months in WoW, but if that bothers you replace WoW, mage and fireball with almost any other MMO, class and spell and it will probably hold up.

Meanwhile, yeah, in Diablo 2 you were pumping stats into vitality, so I guess your health bar had bigger numbers in it. That's progression, sure, but it's a much more abstract and (to me) less interesting version of it. You still get bigger numbers in D3, as well, you just have less control over them. Frankly I'm all right with that trade if I get to swap from using a little blow gun to throwing jars of spiders to spreading a plague of toads instead. That's even before we get to how I went back to using a blow gun because of a certain rune and then shifted back to spiders again due to another rune, before combining two secondary powers with different runes to facilitate a completely different play style that involves spreading DoTs between enemies and barely using my primary left click attack at all.

[Wrestlevania]

Oh god, playing my hardcore WD, ran into a group of FIRE CHAIN VAMPIRIC BURROWERS on nightmare. You know burrowers. Those little annoying fuckers who run super fast and... burrow underground only to appear in a seemingly random spot moments later? FIRE. CHAIN.

But that's not the problem. I was ever-so-slowly whittling away at their health pools. The problem was when I lost connection to the server. I panicked a bit, it's true. Fortunately, I didn't die. Logged back into ol' Twubby and was still alive. But, yeah, I dunno if I'll play again for a while after that scare. D:

That's something I've noticed too, playing a Witch Doctor in Nightmare. Whilst running around with Cigol (admittedly 5 levels higher) last night, my WD has gone from being an area affect powerhouse in Normal to being some slight, cloying, and easily dispatched irritation in Nightmare.

It's left feeling like I have no idea what I'm doing in the game again--not something I expected at all. Weaker, sure. But basically useless? It seems to be too much of a jump to me, at least for this class (and the majority of my equipment is rares, too).

Several skill and kit reconfigurations later has made no apparent difference, which only adds to the frustration, and makes me think that actually, yes, there are still optimum builds in Diablo III, regardless of the unlocked skill system.

(Separately, I'm taking a Demon Hunter through Normal at the moment as well; it'll be interesting to compare the experience when that character rolls over to Nightmare.)

[Patters]

That's kinda been the source of my apprehension about D3. It's frankly amazing that, as a dude who beat D2 9 times, I've gone a week-ish after D3's release without buying it. Really though, from what I've heard, I feel like waiting on Torchlight 2 may be the way to go for me. I'm sure D3 is a fine product and all, but I'm not convinced that it's for me. If the price goes down or I get it as a gift (seems like the kind of thing my stepdad would send to me sometime, he likes to send me stuff to co-op with him as none of his professor buddies play games) I'm sure I'll enjoy it, but I think that Diablo 3 and I may just have different feelings about what a Diablo character should be. No hard feelings, Blizzard, but Runic seems to have my back now.

Get it! We can Co-op!!!

[Hero Protagonist]

It's left feeling like I have no idea what I'm doing in the game again--not something I expected at all. Weaker, sure. But basically useless? It seems to be too much of a jump to me, at least for this class (and the majority of my equipment is rares, too).

Several skill and kit reconfigurations later has made no apparent difference, which only adds to the frustration, and makes me think that actually, yes, there are still optimum builds in Diablo III, regardless of the unlocked skill system.

(Separately, I'm taking a Demon Hunter through Normal at the moment as well; it'll be interesting to compare the experience when that character rolls over to Nightmare.)

There will always be optimal builds, don't believe any game developer that says otherwise; they've been corrupted by the lord of hubris. The difficulties beyond normal exacerbate this.

[Twig]

Really? I've had more of a sense of progress in D3 than in any other game I've played recently apart from Dark Souls. The fact that I'm literally using completely different abilities and tactics now than I was three levels ago, let alone at the start of the game, is really interesting to me. Contrast that to WoW, for example, where if you pick a mage you get a fireball as your first spell and you will still be using that spell at level 85 when fighting the biggest bosses in the game. It's not even just that you have the option to still be using the same spell - you will have to. I've actually been told that Blizzard has potentially changed some of that stuff in recent months in WoW, but if that bothers you replace WoW, mage and fireball with almost any other MMO, class and spell and it will probably hold up.

Meanwhile, yeah, in Diablo 2 you were pumping stats into vitality, so I guess your health bar had bigger numbers in it. That's progression, sure, but it's a much more abstract and (to me) less interesting version of it. You still get bigger numbers in D3, as well, you just have less control over them. Frankly I'm all right with that trade if I get to swap from using a little blow gun to throwing jars of spiders to spreading a plague of toads instead. That's even before we get to how I went back to using a blow gun because of a certain rune and then shifted back to spiders again due to another rune, before combining two secondary powers with different runes to facilitate a completely different play style that involves spreading DoTs between enemies and barely using my primary left click attack at all.

I feel like you're completely missing the point or we're arguing different interpretations of the phrase "character progression" or something. There is literally no investment in character in this game. It's all in gear. Everybody who levels a class to 10 or 20 or 60 is on the exact same footing, except for gear. It doesn't matter if you can constantly change your skills. In fact, that goes counter to the idea of investment in character. And I'm not even saying I don't like that I can change my skills at any time. I just don't like that Blizzard felt the need to completely sacrifice any sense of character progression to do so. There exists a middle ground that, for whatever reason, they opted to ignore.

Also, wait until you get out of normal difficulty. Anybody can experiment with anything in normal and still be at least marginally successful. It is a cakewalk for any class. I went into every single boss apprehensive about my inexperience (as, at the time, I'd never made it past Act 1 with a non-hardcore character), and I never even came close to dying.

P.S. Spiders are always awful.

That's something I've noticed too, playing a Witch Doctor in Nightmare. Whilst running around with Cigol (admittedly 5 levels higher) last night, my WD has gone from being an area affect powerhouse in Normal to being some slight, cloying, and easily dispatched irritation in Nightmare.

It's left feeling like I have no idea what I'm doing in the game again--not something I expected at all. Weaker, sure. But basically useless? It seems to be too much of a jump to me, at least for this class (and the majority of my equipment is rares, too).

Several skill and kit reconfigurations later has made no apparent difference, which only adds to the frustration, and makes me think that actually, yes, there are still optimum builds in Diablo III, regardless of the unlocked skill system.

(Separately, I'm taking a Demon Hunter through Normal at the moment as well; it'll be interesting to compare the experience when that character rolls over to Nightmare.)

Well, as I keep spouting nonstop, it's all about the gear. You probably don't have good gear, despite them all being rares. I know I didn't. Unless you've been investing in the artisans, you likely have a ton of gold. Check out the auction house. You can get some pretty good items for not-too-much gold. When you search, just make sure they have both vitality and intelligence. Doesn't hurt to set the min value for each to 50, either. About 15000-30000 gold for the items you'll be buying, unless things have changes drastically since I last ventured onto the AH.

[Forbin]

I feel like you're completely missing the point or we're arguing different interpretations of the phrase "character progression" or something. There is literally no investment in character in this game. It's all in gear. Everybody who levels a class to 10 or 20 or 60 is on the exact same footing, except for gear. It doesn't matter if you can constantly change your skills. In fact, that goes counter to the idea of investment in character. And I'm not even saying I don't like that I can change my skills at any time. I just don't like that Blizzard felt the need to completely sacrifice any sense of character progression to do so. There exists a middle ground that, for whatever reason, they opted to ignore.

I'm not going to say they did a great job with the class progression, but that's completely not true. Gear is just stats and minor effects, and maybe later in the game that's more important, but the game is designed for you to care about the spells and runes you unlock. They put skills behind level gates, they put runes behind level gates, they put skill slots behind level gates, they put difficulty modes behind level gates. The game is not purely about gear.

Maybe it's different at end-game, but in my 1-30 grind I haven't cared that much about gear at all. And if we are talking about end-game, then it's a bit strange to say it's about progression.

Though I think Gwardiens comment about WoW is unfair. I haven't followed what they've been doing for Pandaria, but the talent trees have always been able to support multiple viable PvE, PvP and leveling builds. And while people complain about face roll builds or boring rotations, they're often being incredibly reductive ignoring the rediculous amout of spells, abilities and items they have to manage. Diablo 3's character design feels incredibly shallow compared to that. Again, I've only played it through on Normal so far, but I've basically got 6 abilities I can use at any time 2 of which are typically buffs or cooldowns.

[Forbin]

Wait, I realize that you mean that all level 60 Wizards are the same other than gear. Which I agree is true, but I also think is not a bad thing. Respec'ing is not something that is staying around as a tough penalty in modern RPGs. It's a bit masochistic to ask a developer to force you to grind a character all the way back to cap because they've found a new build. You can lessen the penalties, but then doing so you get faced with the question about why the penalties exist at all. I don't buy the "make choices more meaningful" argument anymore. Designers should be focused on creating more meaningful decisions for the players to make, rather than rely on a grind. If the most meaningful thing you can do in a game is allocate stat points, or pick a talent in a tree, then it's not really deep.

If a game's going to do that, I think it should be a really short time investment to reroll.

[Twig]

Wait, I realize that you mean that all level 60 Wizards are the same other than gear.

Yes!

Which I agree is true, but I also think is not a bad thing.

Irrespective to its quality as a design choice, I can say that, for me, it makes leveling up significantly less interesting. I mean, sure, I get new skills every level. Yay! But I generally get new skills in every game like this (only I have to pick which ones I unlock), plus more. Now I don't get that plus more? Mehhhhh.

[Salacious Snake]

The technical issues with this game are infuriating. I was just nearing the end of a random dungeon (with a little associated quest) when I became "disconnected." When I returned, I was no longer in the dungeon, and the entire area was unexplored (and replaced with a new randomly generated area). The dungeon I was in is no longer even in my version of the world.

I was all excited because I was pulling levers to open doors in the ancient tomb of so-and-so… there was a bunch of dumb lore and everything. But now I'll probably never even see what the fuck was down there.

edit: There doesn't even appear to be a similar thing in its place. It was all totally generic cellars and shit. There was an outdoor event, which I guess is all I'll get.

There was probably nothing interesting down there anyway, but it's crazy how much it pulls you out of the experience to have the randomly generated world suddenly regenerate while you're playing it. Once my version of the world is established, it should stay the same.

[Chris]

So I just can't beat Belial on my own, and the fact that when I die I have to skip a stupid cutscene and start from the beginning is infuriating. Why do bosses work differently to regular enemies? When you die in a non-boss situation, the world doesn't reset. Why should it be any different with bosses? God I hate special cases for bosses.

[AteBit]

So I just can't beat Belial on my own, and the fact that when I die I have to skip a stupid cutscene and start from the beginning is infuriating. Why do bosses work differently to regular enemies? When you die in a non-boss situation, the world doesn't reset. Why should it be any different with bosses? God I hate special cases for bosses.

What class? What difficulty level?

Assuming a melee class, and worse case difficulty.

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[Cigol]

So I just can't beat Belial on my own, and the fact that when I die I have to skip a stupid cutscene and start from the beginning is infuriating. Why do bosses work differently to regular enemies? When you die in a non-boss situation, the world doesn't reset. Why should it be any different with bosses? God I hate special cases for bosses.

I'm glad it's not just me then. I had to forcibly grab PiratePoo from the Diablo menus and drop him straight into the battle. I was going mental and must have tried several skill combinations all with increasingly worse results until he showed up and saved the day. I suppose if you're struggling it's a good indication you need to beef up your characters equipment and/or level up, but that's also why it's a little disappointing the game is so straightforward and doesn't offer alternative routes for farming (eg; Disgaea...)

[Chris]

I'm glad it's not just me then. I had to forcibly grab PiratePoo from the Diablo menus and drop him straight into the battle. I was going mental and must have tried several skill combinations all with increasingly worse results until he showed up and saved the day. I suppose if you're struggling it's a good indication you need to beef up your characters equipment and/or level up, but that's also why it's a little disappointing the game is so straightforward and doesn't offer alternative routes for farming (eg; Disgaea...)

The thing that honestly bothers me a lot more than the difficulty is the goddamn resetting of the world state. That is some lame-ass shit. It's exactly how Diablo DOESN'T work. I should respawn and get to keep going, like I do with every other type of enemy in the game. Instead of having the boss use the same system the rest of the game does, it's a "setpiece."

Duriel, the Act II boss in Diablo II was way more ridiculous in terms of difficulty, but you could do crazy shit like a party of eight people all madly spawning town portals before they die a half a second later, creating an endless bonkers revolving door of death and respawning. I mean, it's absurd, but it's absurdity borne out of the actual rules of the game world.

It's exactly the reason I hated the Deus Ex 3 boss fights. It's less about the specific difficulty and more that they simply arbitrarily change the way the game system works for no reason other than some designer or writer thought it would be Awesome To Have A Shitty Setpiece Here.

[dibs]

Bring a friend maybe. I died twice on my mage to him last night, but my monk friend was able to revive me to continue the battle.

When i did him 1st time round on my monk i had no issue though.

It was bugging me that a boss death meant a reset of the last few minutes as well. First time it happened i thought i had been hit by some lag artifact.

Edit: I miss there is no "Council" type boss as well. That was the bit I always looked forward to the most in D2.

[Twig]

I beat Butcher on Nightmare on my HC Witch Doctor!

He was kind of a cakewalk. I almost even got the don't-get-hit-by-fire cheesemint, but I screwed up at the last second. Spirit walk wasn't off cooldown fast enough. O woe!

Next up: Act 2. Ugheughhugh beliallllll.

[Gwardinen]

Yeah I recommend having friends for boss fights, being able to be resurrected is invaluable. It's also pretty hilarious to have one or two people sprinting around trying to avoid AoEs or even the world itself attempting to kill you (see Butcher fight with the flaming floor) long enough to resurrect a party member.

[lobotomy42]

It's exactly the reason I hated the Deus Ex 3 boss fights. It's less about the specific difficulty and more that they simply arbitrarily change the way the game system works for no reason other than some designer or writer thought it would be Awesome To Have A Shitty Setpiece Here.

This is way off-topic, but I hated this in the final battle of Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg, too. Literally right before the final battle, they give you a new ability which only works on the final boss and is the only way to defeat it. Suddenly, at the end of the game, you're playing something completely different and all the skills you've developed up to that point are useless.

[Lork]

Boss troubles

The easiest solution to difficulty spikes if you just can't or won't get someone to help you is the auction house. Buying a good weapon or a few square/radiant gems (which are absurdly affordable) will make all the difference in the world.

I'll have to completely disagree with you about the boss fights though. I even have fond memories of cheesing Duriel with a friend using the exact method you described, but I don't consider town portal exploits to be part of the core gameplay, so have no problem with them removing my ability to use them. It's not like in Deus Ex 3 where 90% of your skillset is suddenly useless and you're forced into gameplay that the game isn't even designed to support. It's almost the opposite in my eyes: they're distilling the experience, so there's nothing between you and the boss but your skills as a player, your character's loadout, and your gear, which is what Diablo is all about.

I guess it sucks if you hit a wall and can't progress, but the solution isn't to keep banging your head against it or try to exploit the game like you could in previous Diablos, it's to improve your strategy, your gear, or your character, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

Also is anyone else amused by the fact that the current subject of controversy in the Diablo 3 community is 55Wizard ON?

[youmeyou]

I finally got around to finishing normal mode. Wow, what a disappointing and boring story. I know it's Blizzard but I still managed to be surprised by how bad it was. If it wasn't for a very fun multiplayer mode I'd be finished with this game. (and angry I spent $60 on it)

Additionally, the fact that you can get everything you need for cheaper at the Auction House makes redundant any need to replay D3 for loot. I guess this is a good thing as you can focus on the actual combat, but it also seems to break most of the in-game loot related functions. I haven't messed with my blacksmith or jeweler in a long time. I just sell everything I find and use that money to buy better loot and gems on the AH. Is this what Blizzard was planning?

[Brannigan]

I honestly just ignore the auction house