Twin Peaks Rewatch 50: The Return, Part 15

[Marius]

30 minutes ago, Mentalgongfu said:

When Lucy transfers Margaret Lanterman's final call to Hawk, she tells him it is on Line One. She does not say, for perhaps the first and only time in the show's history, that Line One is the one that is flashing.  An omen? Margaret's first words to Hawk, "I'm dying."

Wow, good catch. It is odd and out of character that Lucy doesn't mention the blinking light.

 

30 minutes ago, Mentalgongfu said:

Margaret says to Hawk before the conversation ends and she says her final good night,

 

"Watch. Watch for that one - the one I told you about, the one under the moon on Blue Pine Mountain."

I feel like the lines before your quote are important too:

"Remember what I told you.

I can’t say more over the phone. But you know what I mean.

From our talks. When we were able to speak face to face.

Watch for that one. The one I told you about. The one under the moon. On blue pine mountain."

 

To me the "speaking face to face" part seems very significant. And since Frost and Lynch seem to like referencing material from the earlier seasons and the film, I wonder if there is actually a scene where Margeret and Hawk have a conversation. Maybe a moment in season 2 that felt random and unimportant, but now makes sense. But it's hard remembering Season 2, everything is a blur.

[Mentalgongfu]

@Marius

Certainly the lines you cite are important, if for no other reason than they are part of the last thing Margaret ever says, or will say, to Hawk.

That, in addition to the "face to face" part. At the least, it indicates they have communicated in person in the relatively recent past, even though all we've seen in The Return is the phone calls. I don't recall anything that seems relevant from Season 2, and my last rewatch was just as the new season was starting, but it's definitely possible there's something I'm forgetting or that just didn't seem important at the time.

 

To your first comment - it is a great catch - but again, I can't take credit. All the observations I mentioned back on page 3 of this thread should be credited elsewhere. All I did was screenshot the map and quote and summarize some dialogue from Twin Peaks that supports what  the Almost Cancelled guys said in their youtube video.

 

And for the record, I do feel a little weird giving props to someone else at a forum run by Jake and Chris of Idle Thumbs, but they're still my favorite Twin Peaks podcast, and the only related discussion board I take part in other than sometimes commenting at AV Club, which will cease to exist as of sometime this morning when it becomes a Kinja site. And besides, I figure TP is really all one big community, so as long as we do give credit where it's due, I don't see the harm in sharing info from other superfans when they find something that intrigues me as much as this does.

[Urthman]

I know they couldn't film it this way because of Catherine Coulson's health, but I sure wish there were a line confirming that Hawk rushed out to spend the evening at her deathbed before coming back to inform the rest of the Sheriff's department instead of just hanging up on her.

[Urthman]

Am I the only one who was really turned off by Nadine cheerfully acknowledging that Ed hasn't really loved her and has been moping about Norma for 30 years, but this is Nadine's fault and she's sorry so go run along and forget about her?  Or that Norma has just been sitting around pining for a married guy for 30 years (or have they been having an affair all this time?) ready to fall into his arms whenever he's finally ready?

 

I loved Ed & Norma in the original show, but the idea of them remaining stuck in the same situation for all that time just seems gross and wrong.

[Cleinhun]

1 hour ago, Mentalgongfu said:

When Lucy transfers Margaret Lanterman's final call to Hawk, she tells him it is on Line One. She does not say, for perhaps the first and only time in the show's history, that Line One is the one that is flashing. 

It seemed like Hawk was expecting her to say that, too. He pauses a second before picking up the phone like he's waiting for Lucy to finish talking.

[Mentalgongfu]

So I hope this is cool to share - a sort of synthesis I wrote about my ideas on Twin Peaks and the connection between Project Blue Book and the Blue Rose task force just got posted at a friend's site. It is essentially a collection of my thoughts on the relation between Lodge entities, tulpas and "aliens" (though not in the pop-culture sense of extraterrestrials), and includes a lot of textual references to all three seasons of the show as well as some outside sources on owls, UFOs, and abduction events. It is lore-heavy, since that is what interests me most. I know the deep, dark depths of the lore is not everyone's preferred cup of coffee, but even those who prefer a little cream and sugar in their cup of joe might appreciate some of the thoughts. It relies specifically on the show and doesn't refer to anything in Frost's books alone, as I personally find the imagery Lynch associates with the ideas to be more powerful than any tome of Secret History.

 

This is the link.

 

If for some reason posting such outside links is not considered appropriate, @Jake @Chris, just let me know and I will remove. Otherwise, I hope you might enjoy.

 

 

[Vellan]

31 minutes ago, Urthman said:

Am I the only one who was really turned off by Nadine cheerfully acknowledging that Ed hasn't really loved her and has been moping about Norma for 30 years, but this is Nadine's fault and she's sorry so go run along and forget about her?  Or that Norma has just been sitting around pining for a married guy for 30 years (or have they been having an affair all this time?) ready to fall into his arms whenever he's finally ready?

 

I loved Ed & Norma in the original show, but the idea of them remaining stuck in the same situation for all that time just seems gross and wrong.

 

It didn't read that way to me.   (Admittedly, I saw Nadine striding in with the shovel and thought she was going to brain him with it.)  I saw her cheerfulness as being rooted in catharsis. We can't control other people or what they feel, and accepting that it's not your responsibility can feel like a weight lifted from your shoulders.  I think someone (last episode?) commented that Jacoby had inadvertently helped someone, and she looked to me like a Nadine who had finally worked out her issues.  She is feeling released from her burdens, and she wants Ed to feel that freedom too.  (Side note: I adore her coat embroidered with pine needles and pinecones.)

 

Likewise, I don't really buy into Norma-as-pining-other-woman, because she also married and while it's not clear if she was actually dating franchise-wanker, she seemed to at least entertain the possibility.  Ed clearly has a moment when he believes she no longer loves him (the 'cyanide pill'), so presumably they aren't having an affair but were just friends (as Ed says to Bobby, "There's nothing going on here").

 

You're right though, it is wrong for people to stay stuck in an unhappy situation.  People should grow and change, becoming better versions of themselves.  Continually re-committing themselves to the same mistakes, however, rings true for what people are more likely to do.

 

YMMV, as ever.

[thaquoth]

1 hour ago, Vellan said:

You're right though, it is wrong for people to stay stuck in an unhappy situation.  People should grow and change, becoming better versions of themselves.  Continually re-committing themselves to the same mistakes, however, rings true for what people are more likely to do.

 

YMMV, as ever.

 

I feel like this has actually been sort of a recurring theme this season, kind of apparent whenever we are looking at the depressing white trash hellhole that Twin Peaks has apparently become.

 

A hefty amount characters are "stuck" in some way or another, in some kind of limbo, unable to move on. Audrey in her nightmare home situation with Charlie, Big Ed and Norma still circling around each other, Shelly still throwing herself at horrible men, James still singing the same old terrible sappy love song.... heck, Sarah, Dougie... it goes on and on.

 

I feel like it's only in the recent episodes that some of these knots are beginning to loose.

[marblize]

Listening now and wanted to clarify before I forget - The text Diane received in episode 12 did only say "Las Vegas?" and with the same capitalization as Doppelcooper's sent text.

 

The question of the fbi asking about vegas came from Diane's response: "THEY HAVEN'T ASKED YET."

 

Minorly potentially notable though is that he sends the text at 9:34pm and she receives it at "19:28" so 7:28pm (according to their prop phones, lol).

[Nordelnob]

On 8/21/2017 at 0:52 AM, Marius said:

The Convenience Store is a Tardis.

Well that's not a very nice thing to say. It's just a little slow.

[Nordelnob]

2 hours ago, marblize said:

Listening now and wanted to clarify before I forget - The text Diane received in episode 12 did only say "Las Vegas?" and with the same capitalization as Doppelcooper's sent text.

 

The question of the fbi asking about vegas came from Diane's response: "THEY HAVEN'T ASKED YET."

 

Minorly potentially notable though is that he sends the text at 9:34pm and she receives it at "19:28" so 7:28pm (according to their prop phones, lol).

Perhaps the message took 5 minutes because Mr. C was out in the boonies, roaming and not near any cell towers?

 

I’ve been thinking about this for a couple episodes now, and I’m sure if there are holes in this theory that I’m not seeing, somebody can correct me. But it seems to me that Mr. C is the real Coop. He’s the darker side of Coop sure, but ultimately it may turn out that he has been acting in the interest of the good guys all along. His motives seem to be opposed to Bob/Mother, even if his methods are a bit evil. What if it turned out that his ultimate goal was to destroy the evil lodge entities?

Perhaps Coop is so good deep down, that even his dark side is capable of acting altruistically and for the greater good. Think about it, when he was first possessed by Bob and unleashed onto the world, he acted more like the animalistic id that is Bob, but as time went on he seems to have been able to subdue him. And he even gains Bob’s super strength lodge powers which he also gets to harness.

I haven’t gone back to check, but hasn’t every single person he has killed been a “bad guy”? Besides the hit on Dougie (which is more of a self-preservation thing than an act of pure malice), every character that we know he has killed or ordered to be killed has been murderers themselves. Or am I wrong about that? I haven’t really thought this one through all that much. Also, killing bad guys still makes you a bad guy. But I thought it was interesting anyways.

The entire time that Coop has been attached to the Bob entity, it hasn’t had the opportunity to do what Bob normally does. Wreak havoc, rape, murder. It seems to me that Mr. C has sort of imprisoned Bob for a good 25 years, taking him totally out of commission. Or perhaps Bob doesn’t work that way. Can he have multiple hosts? The whole scene where Mr. C is like “Good, you’re still with me" comes to mind.

Anyways, sorry for the long post. I just wanted to see what some of you might have to say about this. I guess we’ll find out soon enough. Or not.

[Crunchnoisy]

1 hour ago, Nordelnob said:

He’s the darker side of Coop sure, but ultimately it may turn out that he has been acting in the interest of the good guys all along.

 

 

This is very interesting.  But, on the other hand, KyleMc and Lynch have done such a very good job of making him pervade each scene with evil... like even with the arm wrestling scene, and 20 "bad guys" around him... you never once questioned that he was the most evil person in the room.  Overwhelmingly, powerfully evil.

 

I'd also take the note that the warden was not a murderer, and his killing was very much a "fuck you too" killing.  Mr. Strawberry or not, that hit was the plot of a scorched-earth evil man.  And obviously the people he employs (Tim Roth and wife) are completely reprehensible.

 

nevertheless, an enticing thought experiment.  And not impossible.

 

It was refreshing to see Mr.C get in a little over his head this week.  For the first time, he had to raise his voice.  For the first time, he was desperate for what he wanted ("WHO'S JUDY?") and he didn't get it. 

 

MJD

[Yuecake]

I know Chris and Jake mentioned that blood coming out of peoples mouths/faces is a thing this season. Its something I noticed too, and definitely a motif this season. Its something that Poppy/Titanic Sinclair/Mars Argo have also done throughout their body of work (if anyone follows them).

 

I have been watching the music video for the Veils - Axolotl track which was featured on part 15.  It also features black goop coming out of people's mouths at the end (like the woodsman in the convenience store!) and a round puddle of black oil looking stuff in the road with a feather plant coming out of it.  Anyway, not sure it means anything, just something I observed!

 

 

[pdm]

Hey people, newbie here but love the podcast and have lurked the forum.

 

In the scene where Chantal and Hutch are eating burgers in the van a visual shot of them through to the back of the van shows a shadowy figure pop up and down in the back right window. Looked like a woodsman type move. Did anyone see this? I had to check it twice.  Is Evil Coop going to get rid of them once the final job is done or is this some other type of force? 

[SuoTempore]

My theory...

Re: line one and the blinking light on the phone

 

From the start of the original series, I've thought that Lucy is more clever than she is ever given credit for. She has always known what her job is and takes pride in doing it correctly, regardless of how important or menial the tasks are.

 

She doesn't tell people what line to use because she is stupid, or because she thinks they are stupid, she does it because it is the correct procedure. When she transfers Margaret's call, she understands there is no procedure required, it will be the last conversation between life-long friends.

 

I have other thoughts on this but need to go to bed!

 

 

 

 

[Woodfella]

Because Doppeldale sent the Las Vegas? text that Diane received a few episodes ago in this episode are we to assume that this is happening days ago? Or was he just checking up with the exact same text. 

 

PS. It was great to see Richard and Doppeldale meet. Richard all the way through has been shown as an utter scumbag, a horrible and violent criminal and he runs up against Doppeldale and nearly gets his Gregory snapped!

[The Great Went]

15 minutes ago, SuoTempore said:

 

She doesn't tell people what line to use because she is stupid, or because she thinks they are stupid, she does it because it is the correct procedure. When she transfers Margaret's call, she understands there is no procedure required, it will be the last conversation between life-long friends.

 

 

Also, just tonally, it's a more serious scene so it's a no-brainer to not have the funny business happening. I like your take, though, and I do think it's significant that no one has ever rolled their eyes when she tells them what line to pick up. If you actually watch the Sherrifs Truman faces in the various seasons, they are plausibly benefitting from the blinking light information and not reacting like "Duh" or anything. 

14 hours ago, Urthman said:

Am I the only one who was really turned off by Nadine cheerfully acknowledging that Ed hasn't really loved her and has been moping about Norma for 30 years, but this is Nadine's fault and she's sorry so go run along and forget about her?  Or that Norma has just been sitting around pining for a married guy for 30 years (or have they been having an affair all this time?) ready to fall into his arms whenever he's finally ready?

 

 

I did think about this a little. The way Ed busted into the Double R felt fairly presumptuous to me, if for no other reason than the dynamic between them this season wasn't really established, it's just been riding off what we know about them from the preceding 2 seasons. This was one of the sequences that would have far far less significance if you hadn't watched the other 2 seasons (kind of hilarious to hear that at some point David Lynch said you didn't need to see the original run of Twin Peaks to watch The Return). And to go from zero to "marry me" seemed a bit much, considering they had even been there before toward the end of Season 2 before it apparently all ended when Nadine "woke up" (which to me actually points to a degree of unreasonable martyrdom on Ed's part -- any husband would be within his rights to be like "look, you lost your mind and were bonking a high school boy for a week, sorry we're going through with the divorce." -- considering that, I would think Norma's interest in Ed would have diminished a lot, especially with the passage of 25 years).  Having said all that I was watching this alone in the middle of the night with headphones on and I said "Yes!" out loud and did a fist pump thing so it worked its magic on me despite everything. 

[BonusWavePilot]

32 minutes ago, The Great Went said:

The way Ed busted into the Double R felt fairly presumptuous to me, if for no other reason than the dynamic between them this season wasn't really established, it's just been riding off what we know about them from the preceding 2 seasons.

Hmmm, I suppose it does lean a fair bit on the old seasons, but we did at least get his "Nothing going on here" interaction, and his sad evening of burning things while staring at his glitchy reflection at the Gas Farm.  Granted the latter was short on detail about what was motivating it exactly, but it did look like big Ed was lonely.

[marblize]

5 hours ago, Nordelnob said:

Perhaps the message took 5 minutes because Mr. C was out in the boonies, roaming and not near any cell towers?

 

Well, if we're to believe the prop phones, she received it two hours and six minutes *before* he sent it. I considered timezones but if he's farther west he'd be behind her timewise, not ahead.

 

Unless...

 

Unless timezones are BACKWARDS 

[richardco]

Not sure if Chris meant to, but at 1:12:45 he refers to Z.Z. Top as The Z.Z. Top and it made my whole damn day.

Love this podcast.

[WickedCestus]

Like Chris and Jake, I was assuming/hoping that Sheryl Lee and Ray Wise would be more used in this season, especially Sheryl Lee. I thought she was phenomenal in FWWM, and she has such a distinct presence as Laura Palmer that completely made that film what it was. I'm hoping that she will show up more in the finale, when I assume things will go completely off the rails. 

 

 

[Nordelnob]

2 hours ago, marblize said:

 

Well, if we're to believe the prop phones, she received it two hours and six minutes *before* he sent it. I considered timezones but if he's farther west he'd be behind her timewise, not ahead.

 

Unless...

 

Unless timezones are BACKWARDS 

Oh shit you're right!

 

Well, this is Twin Peaks. The notion of time/timezones running backwards isn't all that far fetched a notion! Especially for lodge entities!

I don't think that is it though. I still think we are being misdirected and this is another hint.

[Cleinhun]

Mr. C asks Jeffries something like "did you call me five days ago?" which I assumed was in reference to the scene in epsiode three. I don't think there's any way the events of the other plot threads could have taken place in five days, so that somewhat confirms that, at the very least, the various plot threads aren't happening exactly concurrently. It's weird to me that we get an exact timeline for badcoop's story when every other thread is so vaguely defined that it's not unreasonable to assume time travel is involved. Can any useful conclusions be drawn from the five days thing?

[Nordelnob]

I'm sad at the lack of Ray Wise . He was probably the best part of the original run, next to Dale of course. But, he's dead, and even  as a lodge spirit, I can't think of much he could do in the story. His whole death scene in the original felt like closure, and to dig him up takes away from it.

[FRENDEN]

Wasn't he in the two part premiere?