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Thanks for posting Miffy, I really enjoy getting a local opinion of things I likely would never have heard of. The new right wing, hyper nationalistic movements that seem to be cropping up all over the world are terrifying to me, particularly in their effectiveness at gaining political office. That effectiveness seems to be largely based on corporate backing and lobbying interests, which makes it all the more worrying in many cases. I've even heard some talk of trying to go to more extreme measures in order to break logjams around projects like oil pipelines with potentially absurd political ramifications.

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Thanks for posting Miffy, I really enjoy getting a local opinion of things I likely would never have heard of. The new right wing, hyper nationalistic movements that seem to be cropping up all over the world are terrifying to me, particularly in their effectiveness at gaining political office. That effectiveness seems to be largely based on corporate backing and lobbying interests, which makes it all the more worrying in many cases. I've even heard some talk of trying to go to more extreme measures in order to break logjams around projects like oil pipelines with potentially absurd political ramifications.

 

Saying their success is built on corporate backing is incorrect. Various politicians of both left and right have succeeded to various degrees in to tapping into peoples discontent meant in the wake of the last 7 years of economic turmoil. These movements could well be copted by corporate or established party interests like what happened to the tea party in 08 but that isn't what makes them successful in the first place.

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Saying their success is built on corporate backing is incorrect. Various politicians of both left and right have succeeded to various degrees in to tapping into peoples discontent meant in the wake of the last 7 years of economic turmoil. These movements could well be copted by corporate or established party interests like what happened to the tea party in 08 but that isn't what makes them successful in the first place.

I'm not so sure about that. Sure a lot of it is xenophobia, but I don't think it's a coincidence that the rise of these movements have also coincided with massive deregulation all over the globe, particularly in the case of oil and telecom companies. I'm not saying necessarily that one is the product of the other, just that the two tend to go hand in hand. Then once those groups get into power, they tend to favor heavily pro-business or even anti-labor agendas. They tend to promote agendas to exploit national resources, and remove various regulations or costs that prevent such things from being done, usually under the guise of removing "red tape".

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I don't think it's corporate 'backing' per say... more like damage caused by deregulated corporations made people more susceptible to 'us-v-them' mentalities, including xenophobia.

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Are you guys outside Europe following the refugee crisis? Germany is apparently expecting to accept 1.5 million refugees this year, and Sweden is taking as many or more per capita. How it works is often that one or two people show up, and if/when they get residency their family is allowed in too, making the real figure even larger. That's a lot of people, and it's not counting the unregistered ones which by some estimates are just as many. I'm worried that it's going to add even more fuel to the fire that is European right extremism and I'm worried (more like convinced) a large portion of those people will never integrate into society (there aren't many manual labor jobs here for example). The other western European nations are basically doing nothing and they can get away with it because Germany and Sweden said they will accept everyone. It's a completely fucked situation. On one hand, how can you deny those people help, but on the other hand we can't help everyone (we all implicitly accept a higher standard of living in the west even though people are miserable in places all over the world).

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Germany and Sweden are doing something quite clever, if they can pull it off as well as America and Australia have: they're accepting enough refugees that they'll be able to help each other acclimatise. They need food, they need shelter, they need to build a life, so they're going to grow the economy as they establish themselves. And there will almost certainly be people who'll find use for people who are educated, not picky, relatively cheap and don't need to speak the language at first. So long as the Syrians don't get ghettoised, and manage to forge links with the natives, it'll be a win-win for everyone.

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I never really understand the "integrating into society" concerns. There are a lot of large immigrant populations in America that never fully integrate, instead just opting to form their own (large, robust) communities that they only really leave to work, if they leave it at all, and they're pretty successful communities.

 

But also the only explanation of what "integrating into society" means to a European I've gotten came from a Frenchman trying to explain the great success they've had with the French Algerian population, so my understanding of what's meant by the phrase might be tainted by the obvious racism that conversation had to involve.

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Hurray, Canadian election day is here!  I don't know the political leanings of members of this forum, so I hope that I'm not too out of bounds when I say that I would greatly appreciate it if another party could come in and knock the Conservative Party of Canada out of the big chair.  It's been a very acrimonious election cycle here, and I'm looking forward to having a party in power that actually believes that climate change is a thing, that doesn't hate Muslim people, and just generally is more driven by policy and facts, rather than crazy ideology.

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Personally I think having a segregated society is slightly odd. I imagine that it'd lead to more racial tension / conflict, because that happens whenever people group together, but I don't live in the US so I don't know how well it works for you guys. With integration I mean that all these immigrants need to become functioning members of society, they need to get jobs, they need to learn the language and from the other side they need to not be discriminated against. Their kids need to have the same opportunities as everyone else and not form a lower class in society. That's harder than it sounds and we've frankly been doing a poor job at it so far, before this flood of immigrants started, which is why you see the rise of right wing extremist parties.

 

Since we have very strong laws governing job security and because employment fees are high, it's both expensive and risky to hire people. That actively works against immigrants. And because we have extensive social security and subsidized healthcare it's very expensive for society to support so many new people until they can support themselves; that builds resentment which only makes the situation worse.

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Personally I think having a segregated society is slightly odd. I imagine that it'd lead to more racial tension / conflict, because that happens whenever people group together, but I don't live in the US so I don't know how well it works for you guys. With integration I mean that all these immigrants need to become functioning members of society, they need to get jobs, they need to learn the language and from the other side they need to not be discriminated against. That's harder than it sounds and we've frankly been doing a poor job at it already, before this flood of immigrants started, which is why you see the rise of right wing extremist parties.

 

Typically they get a job, pay taxes and abide by the laws but kinda half ass or don't learn much of the language because there are enough people speaking your native tongue that it becomes a non issue.  And it's not 'segregation'.  It's just people living where they find convenient (mostly language and food convenience).  Think of chinatown as typical sample.

 

I mean I get some of the concerns you represent in a form of raw 'strategy' aspect, as in is this the best that immigrants do to better their situation, but this isn't some voluntary immigration from one stable society to another but more economically open one.  These are refugees from a war zone...  Even in the worst case scenario of heavy discrimination, that's IMO better than being displaced around the world without legal status.

 

Hurray, Canadian election day is here!  I don't know the political leanings of members of this forum, so I hope that I'm not too out of bounds when I say that I would greatly appreciate it if another party could come in and knock the Conservative Party of Canada out of the big chair.  It's been a very acrimonious election cycle here, and I'm looking forward to having a party in power that actually believes that climate change is a thing, that doesn't hate Muslim people, and just generally is more driven by policy and facts, rather than crazy ideology.

 

This is probably one of the most left leaning forums I have visited, but that may speak more about where I visit than this forum hahaha

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Personally I think having a segregated society is slightly odd. I imagine that it'd lead to more racial tension / conflict, because that happens whenever people group together, but I don't live in the US so I don't know how well it works for you guys. With integration I mean that all these immigrants need to become functioning members of society, they need to get jobs, they need to learn the language and from the other side they need to not be discriminated against. Their kids need to have the same opportunities as everyone else and not form a lower class in society. That's harder than it sounds and we've frankly been doing a poor job at it so far, before this flood of immigrants started, which is why you see the rise of right wing extremist parties.

 

Since we have very strong laws governing job security and because employment fees are high, it's both expensive and risky to hire people. That actively works against immigrants. And because we have extensive social security and subsidized healthcare it's very expensive for society to support so many new people until they can support themselves; that builds resentment which only makes the situation worse.

 

I largely relate "they need to learn the language!" with the American far right who want to pull a Hungary and build giant walls on all our borders, so I don't see learning the language as a necessity. Once there's a large enough population to make it worthwhile, I think a government and society should change to accommodate the population and their neighbors. It might be a pipe dream, but that's still how I'm going to say things should work!

 

It's not segregation in society, as long as they are able to get jobs and work and aren't excluded by society/government for their alterity as a big-O Other. And any segregation isn't the fault of people refusing to change their way of life to better fit into a certain country's idea of the way things should be, but rather the fault of government and society not making a space for an incoming population to flourish.

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I think part of the assimilation argument is specifically related to women's rights and religious liberties. Mainly that the new coming residents must respect the laws of the country they are in above what they are used to, if there are any differences at all. On the language front, I would say it is important to learn the language of the country you are moving to first for concerns of operating in that society, but more so because the laws are written in that language, and not knowing it makes you an easy target to be taken advantage of by landlords or anyone else you are purchasing things or services from.

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My friends and family have been following the refuge crisis from NZ. A few are on their OE's right now so they've met many people who are camping out at places like train stations hoping that they can find their place to restart. One friend even decided to buy something like 50 kebabs or more and passed them to people she saw stranded around Turkey and a whole bunch of supporters sent her donations so she could do it more while she stayed there.

I've forgotten the number that John Key said we were taking but I remember that it sounded pretty low and for the longest time it was a struggle for the PM to stop giving crappy non answers and even acknowledge there was a refugee crisis (wouldn't be surprised of he said migrant instead). Something tells me that if his govt hadn't watered down our social services and turned our state housing into a joke (despite relying on state homes as a kid) welcoming the displaced middle class of a nation that once had an even better standard of living than ours might do wonders for our economy.

Also on the TPPA front it's all done and dusted. A deal ten years in the making brokered by MFAT a department that costs 250m a year to run has taken a perfectly reasonable deal between comparable economies of equal bargaining power and turned it into this shadowy deal almost no one but lobbyists and lawyers knows about that's expected to garner NZ a return of about 2.8 billion over the next decade..

..

For reference the destruction of Christchurch costed around 2 billion.

Y'know maybe in the long run instead of making terrible trade deals like the TPPA or the upcoming EU FTA we're in talks for now, maybe our diplomats could talk about issues like climate change which are sure to bring us bigger costs than what measly FTA returns can cover.

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I think part of the assimilation argument is specifically related to women's rights and religious liberties. Mainly that the new coming residents must respect the laws of the country they are in above what they are used to, if there are any differences at all. On the language front, I would say it is important to learn the language of the country you are moving to first for concerns of operating in that society, but more so because the laws are written in that language, and not knowing it makes you an easy target to be taken advantage of by landlords or anyone else you are purchasing things or services from.

 

I think the onus is on a government to serve all people within its borders, and if that means providing language resources to a population then that's what it means. Language barriers are pretty simple to tackle. They just take effort, time, and collaboration. Society is not immutable in the way that toxic Western nationalist attitudes makes it seem, so making room for an incoming population should be fairly simple.

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Are you guys outside Europe following the refugee crisis? Germany is apparently expecting to accept 1.5 million refugees this year, and Sweden is taking as many or more per capita. How it works is often that one or two people show up, and if/when they get residency their family is allowed in too, making the real figure even larger. That's a lot of people, and it's not counting the unregistered ones which by some estimates are just as many. I'm worried that it's going to add even more fuel to the fire that is European right extremism and I'm worried (more like convinced) a large portion of those people will never integrate into society (there aren't many manual labor jobs here for example). The other western European nations are basically doing nothing and they can get away with it because Germany and Sweden said they will accept everyone. It's a completely fucked situation. On one hand, how can you deny those people help, but on the other hand we can't help everyone (we all implicitly accept a higher standard of living in the west even though people are miserable in places all over the world).

 

Most of people fleeing Syria are middle class - doctors, nurses, engineers, mechanics. The ones who don't have money/ work low skill jobs don't have the resources to make it to Europe. They are either still in Syria or a refugee camp in Turkey, Jordan or Lebanon.

 

Immigrants are rarely from the poorest parts of society cause leaving your country ain't cheap. Also Germany and Sweden need immgrants cause otherwise they won't be able to pay the pensions of their aging populations with the taxes of a shrinking working population.

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I think the onus is on a government to serve all people within its borders, and if that means providing language resources to a population then that's what it means. Language barriers are pretty simple to tackle. They just take effort, time, and collaboration. Society is not immutable in the way that toxic Western nationalist attitudes makes it seem, so making room for an incoming population should be fairly simple.

I tend to agree with you on the language front, but even when governments do this the people immigrants interact with typically don't. My Grandfather basically made his business around the idea that people were going to take advantage of people who didn't speak English, so he offered to become their accountant (mostly Italian immigrants) on the cheap and made sure they got setup with decent people who wouldn't gouge them after seeing it happen to virtually everyone in his neighborhood. The part that is most concerning to me is the idea, and I don't know how much of this is just a fantasy, that the immigrants won't accept the laws of the country they are entering. Any customs that don't respect the basic equality of men and women are unacceptable in the west and as an immigrant you must denounce them and discontinue their practice in order to live in one of those countries. I have a couple friends who are cops that say they run into this kind of thing all the time (either the person breaks a law, or they mete out some punishment for a person breaking a law that doesn't exist in the US) so again I don't know how much of this kind of thing actually goes on beyond the stories I've heard. There is one instance I know of where the UK government allowed for arbitration by non governmental entities so long as the parties agreed to it, which lead to some abuses in recent years. You may have heard about this when a bunch of fox news pundits went on about no go zones where sharia courts exist (they don't, but similar tribunals have handled things like inheritances).

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Re: The Canadian Election.

 

 

YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAY!!!!!!!

 

 

(I would have rather NDP, but still, holy shit this is a big turnaround. I am a happy Canadian tonight. My riding isn't done reporting, but there is only a 4% gap right now between the Conservative incumbent and the Liberal candidate. In downtown Calgary, the Conservative stronghold of Canada, this is HUGE. 110 polls left to report here. I am hopeful.)

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I am also a happy canuck tonight, it seems our NDP incumbent will be booted out by the Liberal candidate, but this is a change I can be happy with regardless.

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UPDATE: As I go to bed (it's nearly midnight in Calgary and I still have to teach in the morning), the gap between the conservative incumbent and liberal has closed to 2%. Sleeping will be difficult.

 

UPDATE TO THE UPDATE: The liberal is now leading by about 400 votes, or 0.7% of counted votes. 12 polls still need to respond. Fuck sleep.

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Another happy Canuck here.  Stayed up to watch the speeches, so I'm pretty wiped today.  Nice to see Harper get the boot - the man was dangerous for the future of the country and made Canada the laughing stock of the environmental world.  Once Atlantic Canada and Quebec sent their regards, it was basically over.

 

His concession speech was one of his better speeches, but I thought it was pretty cowardly to give that speech without mentioning that he was resigning, which he advised the press in a simultaneous press release.

 

A lot of good NDP members paid the price - Megan Leslie, Andrew Cash, Peggy Nash, Howard Hampton, Olivia Chow, they all hit the bricks in favour of the local Liberal candidates.  It was most assuredly a referendum on Stephen Harper, not a ringing endorsement for Justin Trudeau.

 

Harper's non-stop attack ads really fired up the anti-Harper population.  His string of infantilizing "Just not ready" ads set a stupidly low bar for success for Trudeau - all he had to do was not overreact and act as though he was ready, and he'd come out the winner.  Plus, the style of those ads really struck a chord with young voters, who actually appear to have somewhat voted, as 67% of the eligible population voted.

 

"Hey young people, do you remember all the job applications you've been sending out that you never heard back from ? Let's make an advertisement that reminds you of that and makes you identify with our political opponent.  Do you suspect that old idiots are blocking you from working for stupid, superficial reasons? It's true. We're those old idiots." (stolen from Reddit).

 

My riding was decided by six votes in 2011; it was a Liberal blowout this time.

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Congrats, I listened to a couple of steams and chatted with a few Canadian friends last night. It was cool to see how the political system up there actually works, as opposed to the US one that seems unfixable at the moment.

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Glad that the Conservatives are out. Super surprised by the big Liberal majority. Even though I voted Liberal, I'm disappointed in the NDP losses. Thought for sure Peggy Nash would win in my parents' riding in Toronto and Paul Dewar would win in Ottawa, but I was wrong. I think the NDP were pretty hurt by the shift to the center here. I may have voted for them had they not been so adamant about balancing the budget immediately.

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My riding went Liberal! The guy I was watching slowly catch up to the Conservative incumbent ended up winning by 1.5% of the vote. I now live in one of two Liberal ridings in Calgary, a city which has not had a Liberal representative since the mid 1960s. I'm an NDP guy at heart, but that's just not realistic in the heart of Canada's oil country. I'm super happy with what I got, despite being sad about how much of a hit my NDP had to take in order to make it happen.

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Sounds like it was a really dramatic swing in seats at that Canadian election. I wonder what is going to change over there.

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The NDP kinda screwed themselves by situating themselves to the right of the libs with the whole "oh yeah we're totes going to balance the budget too" thing. If, as the left party, you let the centrist party come across as more keen on spending than you...well that's not particularly inspiring to your base, and in an election where strategic voting has been a factor like I have NEVER seen before, that is going to cost you.

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