Binding of Isaac: Rebirth

[Bjorn]

A 4x sized room full of spiders in the first floor has made me restart more than any other thing (maybe all other things combined).

[Synnah]

Spiders are total pricks. I also have quite a bit of trouble with the mid-sized poos that charge at you, although I'm kind of getting better at recognising their tells and avoiding them.

[Cleinhun]

Finally finished all of the challenges and fully upgraded the shop. Now I'm only a handful of items away from !platinum god. I still haven't unlocked

the lost

yet though, because that seems like kind of a pain.

[Ninety-Three]

What I love is that those items that are "bad" often have fantastic combinations with other items. Even if you don't get them, I still enjoy the challenge of being hamstrung and doing the best I can.

 

I don't mind the idea of challenge items, what I mind is the game forcing a negative effect on me for daring to pick up an item. To make a comparison, troll bombs are fine, but imagine if they were impossible to dodge, they were just the game telling you "I've decided you should have less health". That would some unfair nonsense, and I feel the same way about items with unknown downsides: the game is just telling me "I've decided to make you worse. Guess you won't pick that item up again, idiot."

 

I think it's the fact that it is avoidable once you know that makes it bother me so much. That way, it's not like it's part of the game, where it will always be the case that sometimes you pick up an item that you don't want and you're forced to improvise. Every downside item will sucker punch you once, and then you can avoid it. It feels like a "Fuck you" directed at players who have yet to learn all the items.

 

I also don't understand the problem with being teleported to another room. There's a map, and is usually a good thing. 

 

I got teleported to the boss while at half health, when there were some hearts I could have picked up if I'd been expecting a big bossfight. I died, and I was not happy.

 

[Deadpan]

"I've decided to make you worse. Guess you won't pick that item up again, idiot."

 

I think it's the fact that it is avoidable once you know that makes it bother me so much.

 

To be fair, very few items in the game are entirely detrimental. Plenty are mostly useless, like the many different flavors of speed, range and shot speed upgrades, or less than impressive familiars. Others raise one stat at the expense of another, but only a very small number of them have the potential to irredeemably mess up a run. Tiny Planet, definitely. Dead Cat, I guess, if you had a lot of health before picking it up and didn't realize it would knock you down to one. Soy Milk, Strange Attractor or Anti-Gravity maybe, but that's already more debatable.

 

Would the opposite of that - for items to be entirely random and impossible to ever learn - be preferable to you though?

 

I got teleported to the boss while at half health, when there were some hearts I could have picked up if I'd been expecting a big bossfight. I died, and I was not happy.

 

That didn't happen automatically though, you did something to trigger the teleport. If it was Telepills, you had some bad luck. If it was an Emperor Card, well then you know what that does now. Either way it's something you could have activated after picking up those hearts. Manage the randomness, you know.

[Ninety-Three]

To be fair, very few items in the game are entirely detrimental. Plenty are mostly useless, like the many different flavors of speed, range and shot speed upgrades, or less than impressive familiars. Others raise one stat at the expense of another, but only a very small number of them have the potential to irredeemably mess up a run. Tiny Planet, definitely. Dead Cat, I guess, if you had a lot of health before picking it up and didn't realize it would knock you down to one. Soy Milk, Strange Attractor or Anti-Gravity maybe, but that's already more debatable.

 

Would the opposite of that - for items to be entirely random and impossible to ever learn - be preferable to you though?

 

I know most of the are tradeoffs, but there are some of them where I find the upside isn't worth the downside, and knowing what they do, I'd rather not pick them up. It's like shotgun versus assault rifle in an FPS. I know neither's just better than the other, but I like the rifle, and I'm not going to trade it for the shotgun if the game offers me that. A lot of these tradeoff items are "Surprise! Now you're stuck with the shotgun you hate!"

 

If the items were always random and unknowable, I wouldn't enjoy getting stuck with the shotgun any more (and since it would happen more often, I'd probably enjoy it even less), but it would bother me less, because then it feels like the game is designed to force you to improvise, rather than just punishing you for not recognizing all the shotguns.

 

That didn't happen automatically though, you did something to trigger the teleport. If it was Telepills, you had some bad luck. If it was an Emperor Card, well then you know what that does now. Either way it's something you could have activated after picking up those hearts. Manage the randomness, you know.

 

It was a Tarot card, and now I know that I should heal before using it, my problem is with the first-time experience. There was nothing I could have done to avoid getting screwed by the card when I didn't know what it did. Sure I could have picked up hearts before using it, but I had no reason to expect I would need to. Maybe I should get down to low life because this unknown card is a full heal. Maybe I should save this card for a level where I haven't found the secret room, because if it finds secret rooms then I'd be wasting it on this level. You can't reasonably prepare for the effect of a mystery item.

[N1njaSquirrel]

It was a Tarot card, and now I know that I should heal before using it, my problem is with the first-time experience. There was nothing I could have done to avoid getting screwed by the card when I didn't know what it did. Sure I could have picked up hearts before using it, but I had no reason to expect I would need to. Maybe I should get down to low life because this unknown card is a full heal. Maybe I should save this card for a level where I haven't found the secret room, because if it finds secret rooms then I'd be wasting it on this level. You can't reasonably prepare for the effect of a mystery item.

 

All Tarot Cards have a fixed ability. The Emporer Card warps you to the boss of that floor, that's the card you picked up. The only other warp cards are the fool, which warps you to the first room of the level, the moon, which warps you to the secret room, the stars, which warps you to the item room (or closest equivalent if there's no item room), and the hermit, which warps you to the store. You can get a pretty good indication of what the card does by holding back on the controller (or holding tab), whereby you can see the flavour text of the card, and it's pretty clear as to what it does.

[Problem Machine]

You didn't know what it was, it was a mystery item, and you used it without preparing for any possible negative consequences. Isn't the issue just that you don't like and/or aren't prepared for items having any negative repercussions? If that's the case, isn't that just because other games have trained you that loot is unconditionally good? I think that's an assumption worth challenging, and one that certainly comes from the Rogue tradition. If you don't know what it is, be prepared for bad shit to potentially happen when you use it. None of them will instantly kill you (with one clearly marked exception which has to be unlocked): Bad trip/ health down pills will reverse effect when they would kill you, and anything else might put you in a bad situation but not one you couldn't hypothetically play your way out of.

[Griddlelol]

If that's the case, isn't that just because other games have trained you that loot is unconditionally good?

 

Damn! I never thought of it that way. That's a really good insight and I think I appreciate the game a little more now.

[Problem Machine]

I don't know a lot about D&D, but the impression I've gotten is that in older editions and in games which inherited from that tradition trapped and cursed items were a big deal. This is why the whole identification trope exists in Diablo, as far as I can tell, because the idea was that if you used something without knowing what it was you were taking a risk which could turn out very poorly. In Diablo itself, though, cursed items are basically just bad items that only exist at low levels, and after that they disappeared completely.

 

It's understandable that this idea of dangerous items has kind of been optimized out of game design, but also really sad. Nothing says "magic is strange and dangerous" like knowing there are rings out there which will turn you into a puddle of goo if you try to wear them. Isaac kind of splits a balance, with pedestal item pickups being largely positive with a few pickups that are neutral, but when it comes to cards and pills they're much closer to value neutral. You really can't expect them to help you unless you happen to know exactly what they do.

 

Also it's worth noting that some of the best items in the game can trip you up if you're not used to them. Many novice players have been killed adjusting to brimstone's charge time or mom's knife's range.

[Griddlelol]

I much prefer the philosophy of items can be good or bad (as in detrimental). The utter worst parts of games is when you pick up an item that is either neutral, or weaker than the one you have. What's the point? It's just trash.

Having to make a meaningful choice in whether you use an item or not is in my opinion, fantastic design, and a far better choice than "NPC lives or dies."

[Problem Machine]

Well when I say neutral in Isaac's case I mean situational. Almost every item has a use under specific circumstances, the only exception to which I can think of are puberty, i found pills, and ruawizard pills. Something like Tiny Planet is neutral in the grand scheme of things, but can make or break a run by choosing to take or leave it.

[Griddlelol]

Oh I know, I was referring to the thousands of other games that provide you with a "grey" item, that you just sell. 

[Bjorn]

I don't know a lot about D&D, but the impression I've gotten is that in older editions and in games which inherited from that tradition trapped and cursed items were a big deal. This is why the whole identification trope exists in Diablo, as far as I can tell, because the idea was that if you used something without knowing what it was you were taking a risk which could turn out very poorly.

 

Yep, you got it right. In old tabletop games, using unidentified magic was a desperate act of last resort (or the choice of a crazy person). Which actually made it fun at times. I can remember a few times of someone activating a wand or putting on a ring in the middle of a fight, hoping that it would give us an edge to get through.

 

Loot was almost always exciting as well, because you never knew what it was and there was often a significant delay in learning (it might be hours or days after getting loot before you actually learn what it was, and for extremely powerful stuff, there could be quests or riddles to ultimately determine it).  My favorite amulet I ever had took me months to figure out exactly what it was doing. 

 

Not that Isaac is exactly like that, but with the synergies between some items, there is still a process of gradual discovery even after you've picked up most items once. 

[Synnah]

Getting bad items never really annoys me; Binding of Isaac is a game about risk. When I get an unknown pill I know there's a chance that it will reduce my health or tears or damage, so I don't particularly find it frustrating when it does, and I know that using one right before a boss or when I have low health is probably a bad idea, in case things go wrong. Similarly with items that I don't know the effect of, I know there's a risk that they might have a detrimental effect on my character, but I'm generally happy to accept the hand that the game deals me and attempt to make the best of it. That's just how I play the game, and I enjoy what I get out of it.

 

When I think about it, I rarely got angry or frustrated with Spelunky, either. I think when I do get frustrated with a game it's because I can see the designer's hand, and I think they've made a bad decision (Or a series of bad decisions) that's having a negative effect on my play experience. If things going wrong is part of the brief, I feel like I have more patience for it. See Far Cry 2. That's probably part of the reason why that game is so divisive; some people are able to accept that the scales aren't really in their favour, and that things are going to go wrong for them and struggling against that is what the game is about, whereas other people believe games should be empowering and that when things go wrong that are beyond their control, the designer is at fault. It's a matter of personal taste!

[Problem Machine]

Well it is, but it's also a matter of what we've been trained to think games are. Like, I have no problem with people saying they want to play a game about personal empowerment, but I do have a problem with people saying that's what a game is supposed to be, which is frequently where that conversation goes. Similarly, there are a lot of game design tropes that have been commonly accepted has 'good design', very much along the lines of never disempowering the player, and I feel that uncritical acceptance of these tropes leads to a whole lot of boring and mediocre games.

[Bjorn]

The rise of rougelikes seems to point to more and more gamers wanting games that are willing to disempower or pull the rug out from under them, not just have power fantasies.

[Problem Machine]

Yeah. According to what were recognized as best practices in game design 8 years ago, the success of Spelunky and the Souls games would be pretty unthinkable.

[undermind9]

i've recently gotten back on the Isaac train hard and cleared the chest with a few different characters.  I'm looking forward to doing the big door soon & opening up dark room work

 

i treat the recent topic of risky loot as part of the game and love the discovery of not knowing exactly what an item does.  if it doesnt work then oops, start a new run.  the game is meant to be played hundreds of times..not getting in and going to the end on the first couple tries nor to be perfected like a mario platformer

[Ninety-Three]

You didn't know what it was, it was a mystery item, and you used it without preparing for any possible negative consequences. Isn't the issue just that you don't like and/or aren't prepared for items having any negative repercussions?

 

I feel some of my complaint has been missed, my problem isn't that negative items exist, it's that their negatives are unavoidable until you get hit with them, and then learn to avoid them. You can't prepare for an unknown negative effect because it could be anything, and it's not reasonable to prepare for each possible bad thing the game might do to you. "Alright, before you use any unknown item, fully heal, make sure you have at least one bomb, go to a large room and stand away from the corners, turn around three times and throw salt over your shoulder..."

 

I'm fine with the game design principle of "Sometimes this game gives you an item with a downside that you have to adopt to", my problem is with Isaac's implementation.

 

In Isaac, it's not like you get messed up by an item every time it spawns, you get messed up by it exactly once, and from then on you remember "Oh right, I hate that item's effect, or it would be really bad with my current build, not picking it up this time." A game that forces you to take negatives and improvise is fine, but I don't feel like that's what Isaac was trying to be. Isaac only forces you to improvise once, and it happens when you're less experienced with the game, which is a poor time to force the player out of their comfort zone. Once you understand what an item does, taking on the negative becomes optional, so you only do it if you either think it's worth the item's benefit, or if you want to force yourself to improvise for fun.

[Problem Machine]

Okay, but how is that different from coming to understand any other game's systems? Like, say, in a fighting game, until you understand what each move is good for, you're going to get your ass kicked without understanding why.

[Ninety-Three]

But the role of items in Isaac isn't the same as the role of moves in fighting games. In Nethack, if you attack a floating eye, you'll be paralyzed for a long time. The first time a player encounters the eye, they don't know any better, so they take the penalty. Every time after that, they know not to do so. It is a poorly-designed aspect of the game, and some modern builds of the game have added in a warning that prevents you from unknowingly doing it.

 

Killing myself by activating The Emperor with low life, taking damage from The Tower, or changing my shots in a way I don't want from many items, it feels like attacking a floating eye. The game screwed me with a system I had no way to see coming, and now that it's happened once, I will always be able to avoid it in the future. It's not gaining skill at the game, it's just an arbitrary knowledge check. "Hey, do you know what this item does? No? Well now the item has messed you up, and you know." Sure it helps to know boss attack patterns to fight them, but it's not like you can never avoid an attack if you don't know the pattern, and you can always avoid an attack if you do.

 

EDIT: To clarify, the fundamental idea of the floating eye as an unattackable monster isn't bad design, what I was referring to was enforcing the idea with a harsh punishment, rather than just telling the player. I think Nethack is just better when it warns you about floating eyes, and I feel the same way about Isaac's downside items.

[Latrine]

It is a poorly-designed aspect of the game

 

It's hard to claim an aspect of a game is objectively poorly designed when so many people say they like it. A design is only poor when there is no love for it.

 

Killing myself by activating The Emperor with low life, taking damage from The Tower, or changing my shots in a way I don't want from many items, it feels like attacking a floating eye. The game screwed me with a system I had no way to see coming, and now that it's happened once, I will always be able to avoid it in the future. It's not gaining skill at the game, it's just an arbitrary knowledge check. "Hey, do you know what this item does? No? Well now the item has messed you up, and you know." Sure it helps to know boss attack patterns to fight them, but it's not like you can never avoid an attack if you don't know the pattern, and you can always avoid an attack if you do

 

All skill is based on some prior knowledge. You know getting hit hurts so you try to avoid attacks. You should also know that not every item in the world is good for you, so you should consider the risk that something bad can happen when you use it. Also you should know that when you start doing something new, e.g. playing a new video game, that your prior experiences don't transfer completely and you shouldn't expect to have complete mastery over the new experience.

 

The exception is when a game is designed to give virtually any player who plays it the feeling of complete mastery, but this requires the design of the game to present challenges that require no special experience and thus pretty much no skill. This is the problem people have had with the last generation of mainstream games and why we've seen a resurgence of roguelike inspired games like Isaac. 

 

EDIT: To clarify, the fundamental idea of the floating eye as an unattackable monster isn't bad design, what I was referring to was enforcing the idea with a harsh punishment, rather than just telling the player. I think Nethack is just better when it warns you about floating eyes, and I feel the same way about Isaac's downside items.

 

Dying in the Binding of Isaac is not a harsh punishment. You're expected to replay the game dozens if not hundreds of times. Part of the joy of the game is playing a completely new random run and not knowing what you're going to get.

 

By the way, once you've learned about most of the items there are very few that are actually bad. The Emperor is an excellent item because it lets you skip many rooms and jump straight to a boss on later levels. The Tower isn't great but gives you a chance to blow something up for resources if you're out of bombs, and most of the time you can avoid taking damage from it. Many of the shot changing items are pretty powerful and beneficial although they may have a learning curve to using them effectively. 

[Problem Machine]

But the role of items in Isaac isn't the same as the role of moves in fighting games

Well they're obviously not exactly the same, but the analogy holds. In both cases, you start out not knowing what they do, and in the case of self-damaging moves or moves with a very long recovery time you can lose a match for not knowing. But, going in, you know that your character has lots of moves, each with their own strengths and drawbacks: You accept it as a potential consequence, each time you use a move you don't know, that it will fuck you over. And that's how you learn.

 

In Isaac, every item has an application, except for those which basically don't do anything at all. You're just complaining about not knowing what all of the applications are beforehand. As I said, even if I tell you that mom's knife is one of the best items in the game and you should take it whenever you see it, you still might die the first time you take it just because you're not used to how it works. That's what learning the game is. That's what learning anything is.

[Deadpan]

Killing myself by activating The Emperor with low life, taking damage from The Tower, or changing my shots in a way I don't want from many items, it feels like attacking a floating eye. The game screwed me with a system I had no way to see coming, and now that it's happened once, I will always be able to avoid it in the future. It's not gaining skill at the game, it's just an arbitrary knowledge check.

 

You don't know what exactly is going to happen, but that's not the same as being entirely unprepared for it if you, as has been suggested, take into consideration that stuff might be bad for you. You may not know that a card spawns a bunch of random bombs, but you know that you don't know what it does, and that you're taking a risk by trying it. You can minimize that risk by testing it in a cleared, open room, stocking up on health, etc. or even just by plain not using it at all if you've got a setup that you don't want to lose to any kind of accident.

 

It's pretty clear that the game just isn't for you, but I don't think it's fair to describe this as accidental or poor design rather than a conscious choice towards making people learn stuff the hard way, which you happen to think is bullshit. Besides, just because you know what the items do eventually doesn't mean you'll always know whether to pick them up or not. Since a lot of them only work well in certain combinations, you might have to weigh picking up something that's useless or detrimental to you at the moment for a chance that it'll be great later. Or you want one of the benefits of an item but aren't sure if its other effects are worth it right now, or you're unsure if picking up something in a devil room is worth the health loss, whether you want to buy that one item in the shop now or see what's on the next level and risk running into Greed instead etc. etc.