Sean

Dota Today 12: Creating a Gestalt with Aaron Ayesee Chambers

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Hey, fellow readers. On the topic of silly handles bringing down the overall level of prestige:

 

That's amazing.  And a very good point!

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Just a few American sports names.

 

Chad Johnson becoming Chad Ochocinco

Ron Artest becoming Metta World Peace

 

The short lived XFL (Vince McMahon of the WWE's attempt at beginning an American football league) allowed players to put whatever they chose as a name on the back of their jersey.  Rod Smart's "He Hate Me" was the league's best selling jersey.  And per Wikipedia apparently this was a thing that is hilarious:

 

When Smart and the Outlaws played divisional rival Los Angeles Xtreme, two Xtreme players put "I Hate He" and "I Hate He Too" on the back of their jerseys to express their disdain for Smart. In a later game between those two teams, those two players changed their nicknames to "Still Hate He" and "Still Hate He Too". The curious maxim also caught the eye of American audiences (as well as Smart's future Carolina Panthers teammate Jake Delhomme, who named one of histhoroughbreds, "She Hate Me").

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Chad Johnson becoming Chad Ochocinco

Ron Artest becoming Metta World Peace

 

To be fair both of those guys actually legally changed their names to be allowed to have that on their jerseys by the NFL and NBA respectively :P

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I seriously wish casters would stop saying things like "Balls Deep" and "No homo" casually.  The fact they do this often wearing sports jackets and pretending to be adults can be hilarious.

 

My favourite casters right now is the pair of Synderen and Sunsfan.  The latter is guilty of saying "Balls deep" constantly, but the pair seem to be able to have fun and not take themselves too seriously while still respecting the game.  Particularly I enjoy Sunsfan calling out failures in pro games.  I guess it's from recording fails of the week on DotaCinema, but it really helps break the tension.

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I very much enjoy casters who are willing to be constructively critical. I want analysis. I come to sports and games for competition, but also for strategy. I strongly dislike the "two pros yelling" experience, and also the dismissive caster experience. They're the ones who will just proclaim the game to be over after a critical point with no followup. I'm a layman, it doesn't look over to me! Can you offer some insight to back up your bold proclamation 18 minutes into a game?

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Can I just say: holy cow, what a fantastic episode this was. Great conversation, a high level of excitement, and I loved that it was about eSports in general, radio and casting.

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I very much enjoy casters who are willing to be constructively critical. I want analysis. I come to sports and games for competition, but also for strategy. I strongly dislike the "two pros yelling" experience, and also the dismissive caster experience. They're the ones who will just proclaim the game to be over after a critical point with no followup. I'm a layman, it doesn't look over to me! Can you offer some insight to back up your bold proclamation 18 minutes into a game?

 

Yeah not to take this in a negative direction, but I find it difficult to watch people like Tobiwan who scream about team fights.  I also don't like that people feel an obligation to just fill the air.  That's something that bugs me about sports commentators as well. It's not radio, "dead air" won't kill you.  My brain needs a break from the non-stop intense chatter, and often it feels like the commentators need one too because it doesn't seem like they're thinking about what they're saying.  And if everything is constantly exciting and important, then basically nothing is because the tone has been at full blast for 50 minutes.

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Since multiple commentary streams are so easy in the spectating client, I'd love to get a stream dedicated for entry-level watchers. I too have trouble following all the actions, and wouldn't mind listening to a dumbed-down stream as an alternative.

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Just a shout-out to the folks in WV. Both my best friends in college were from WV and we took a road trip there for spring break one year. I can confirm that the mountains are gorgeous and the roads and infrastructure are terribad. The people were courteous and the WVU parties were out of this world. Sadly, WV is undergoing a serious brain drain as young people leave the state for college and never return. West Viriginia's motto was briefly changed to "Open for Business" in the mid-2000s by the governor, ostensibly tongue-in-cheek. The current motto "Wild and Wonderful" was decided by popular vote.

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Since multiple commentary streams are so easy in the spectating client, I'd love to get a stream dedicated for entry-level watchers. I too have trouble following all the actions, and wouldn't mind listening to a dumbed-down stream as an alternative.

It's likely there's some streams for this already, but they're not in the game client since there's a limit of 6 casting teams. Probably some twitch channel with few viewers.

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I'm half way through the episode but damn this is a great discussion.

 

The name thing of players is pretty silly, at best. As far as what names they pick. I wouldn't want that to go away ever, because (as was pointed out) that's just what video game players do and are like. As long as the name isn't like "Hitler was Awesome" or something like that. But the constant rotation of names, that can be pretty stupid. Consistency is everything. It helps to sell everything, and selling e-sports means bigger prize pools. The players should consider that stuff.

 

Anyway. What was the funny quote Sean was asking about, at like 37 minutes in? The one from an ad.

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Thanks for the kind words about this episode! I think it's my favorite so far! Ayesee was awesome! :D!

 

Since multiple commentary streams are so easy in the spectating client, I'd love to get a stream dedicated for entry-level watchers. I too have trouble following all the actions, and wouldn't mind listening to a dumbed-down stream as an alternative.

 

Such a great suggestion! I would like that too! :D!

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So I have a lot of thoughts on the question of how to bring more spectators to the game, particularly spectators who do not play the game themselves.  A lot.

 

So, Ayesee, if you're checking this thread at all, here's the first and most important idea for attracting non-player spectators:

 

1. We're already here.

 

And you can start addressing us in casts or coverage any time you like.  I've never played a LoMa.  I installed Dota2 once, but I never opened it.  But I watch a lot of pro games, and read a fair bit of online stuff about the game.  I mentioned this in Sean's Twitch chat a while back when he was playing some Saturday Dota, and the reaction was unexpected:  Sean seemed shocked, and offered the opinion that what I do is crazy*.  And then several other people in that twitch chat piped up, saying they were more or less in the same boat: don't play, do watch.  This was in a low-ranking pub match with maybe 50 people watching it: there are many, many more of us non-player spectators watching when you cast big events or well-known teams.

 

So start talking to us.  

 

On the Idle Thumbs cast, they're constantly putting the brakes on a conversation about a game with a phrase to the effect of "OK, for those who haven't heard of this game, here's a summary...".  Do this in LoMa casts.  Assign someone to periodically say "so, for those who haven't played this Lord much..." and just explain Basic Things.  Do this for items too.  You often have tons of action-free slow time in a game, fill some of it with information instead of banter (but please don't jettison the banter).  Don't be afraid to repeat a few Basic Things from game to game (but don't repeat yourself too much in a single game). I'm sure new or infrequent players would appreciate this just as much as non-players.

 

People are smart, we can pick up a lot of jargon from context.  What we can't pick up from context are the things you can only get in-game; the two biggest ones are the Items Spreadsheet and the Lords Spreadsheet. Which Lord has what spells, what a Lord's basic stats are, what each spell looks and sounds like, which items do what and which item names** correspond to which icons on the screen.  Players get all of this by loading up the game and playing it for 100 hours.  Non-players need help, infrequent players need reminders, and new players need tips.

 

Most of all: when you're casting or writing coverage of the game, remember there are already people in your audience who don't play the game.

 

 

* Um, don't do this if you're trying expand the spectator pool to non-players.  I'm not crazy.

 

** we can handle multiple names for items and lords, we manage to cope with endless nicknames for things in every other sport.

 

*** I have at least two more Important Things To Say, but I'll put them in their own posts.

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I'm sorry I only seem to post negative things in these threads. The qualifiers are great so far, I was very surprised that MVP (the Korean team) managed to do as well as it did. The bracket isn't done yet so they might end up in the main tournament. They're playing well. Shame Zephyr choked so hard.

 

Back at TI3, with the Korean commentators and the winning team of the Gom league getting free tickets to TI3 (watch, not play), people were saying that a Korean team might get into TI5 or 6.

 

robotslave, aren't there already plenty of Youtube videos for beginners? There's plenty to talk about between CLUTCH fights though most casts need a player to talk about that. I think many people would avoid a caster team that explained what a BKB or bounty hunter's track do every game. If you're watching in game you can look at the tool tips yourself anyway, especially at TI4, the games are free to observe in game.

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Want to chime in with support for robotslave.  I've only ever played the tutorial of Dota 2 and though I haven't watched many pro matches I'm happy to consume every Dota Today because I like the guys and enjoy listening to people talk about something they are passionate about.  I've heard this echoed before in other podcasts (for example if you aren't watching a show but listening to its analysis on a podcast you must be crazy) but for the most part the personalities are enough to deal with much of the confusion.

 

The only bit I would add is that many American pro sports commentators explain basics of the game or keep explanation of strategy at a fairly basic level.  While this certainly is frustrating if you are a much more experienced watcher and the audience is more broad than I expect the one watching Dota 2 matches, novices or folks who just want to watch without playing certainly exist.

 

And I want to reiterate this was a great episode since most of this probably reads negative and I don't intend that to be the takeaway.

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I'm a watcher not a player, but I want the DEEP strategy. I want to know why people pick comps and counter comps. Even if it's just because you have to get this lord because they're super popular right now, I want to know why. I want to know why they have a lane setup like they do. I want to know what parts of the map they're trying to control. I want to know why teams will glyph in some cases but not in others (is there strategic significance to glyphing as often as possible, for example, or saving it  for the Most Important time (aka the RPG Potions Theorem)). Something that is probably more basic is sometimes casters show concern when teams are down by X amount of gold or experience and sometimes they're like "no they'll be fine". I want more explanation about that. Sometimes it seems simple and sometimes it's not.

 

Here's my lord and item knowledge: BKB gives you magic immunity, force staff shoves people around. Invoker has a lot of buttons. Wraith King was cooler as Skeleton King. That's it.

 

Teach me the important parts of the game! I'll pick up spell names as I go.

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I'm a watcher not a player, but I want the DEEP strategy. I want to know why people pick comps and counter comps. Even if it's just because you have to get this lord because they're super popular right now, I want to know why. I want to know why they have a lane setup like they do. I want to know what parts of the map they're trying to control. I want to know why teams will glyph in some cases but not in others (is there strategic significance to glyphing as often as possible, for example, or saving it  for the Most Important time (aka the RPG Potions Theorem)). Something that is probably more basic is sometimes casters show concern when teams are down by X amount of gold or experience and sometimes they're like "no they'll be fine". I want more explanation about that. Sometimes it seems simple and sometimes it's not.

 

Here's my lord and item knowledge: BKB gives you magic immunity, force staff shoves people around. Invoker has a lot of buttons. Wraith King was cooler as Skeleton King. That's it.

 

Teach me the important parts of the game! I'll pick up spell names as I go.

Why people pick certain comps

1. Sometimes it's because certain lords are so strong in the current state of the game.

2. Sometimes it's because a player is specialized with a certain lord. Recently in The International SEA qualifiers every team banned (or first picked) Naga Siren when they played against Scythe because they didn't want a player called Meracle have the hero, if he goes through ban phase Scythe will probably play around a Naga Siren split push lineup so this includes having heroes that are strong 4v5 for the early game while creating space for Naga Siren.

3. Sometimes in a Bo3/Bo5 teams will try a "cheese" lineup that catches the opponenet off guard usually involving a fast push strat that ends the game in 20~ mins. Heroes like Pugna, Rhasta, Chen/Enchantress with fast mekansm, item that heals the whole team and Pipe, item that gives all heroes a shield that absorbs magic damage which is usually what the opponent will use to defend against a giant creepwave knocking on your front door sub 20 minutes. It's very normal to ban out Keeper of the Light if you try this as his nuke will demolish most pushes.

4. Most importantly it's trends though I would say, teams see other teams do well with certain lords so they will start incorporate those lords into their drafts. Before EG started picking Treant Protector frequently he was basically only used by one other team (Rox.Kis) but now it's common for everyone to pick that hero because EG is one of the best teams in the world at the moment, though when Rox picked him they didn't always do well so I guess teams weren't sold on the hero.

5. Some combos are just strong SD+Mirana, Kotl+PL, Tiny+Wisp etc

 

Puppey captain of Na'Vi talked about certain comps only work if you bait the other team into picking certain lords so there's a lot of mindgames going on.

 

I can probably go on about this for longer but will go on to your next question.

 

Lane setups

1. There's a lot of mindgames going on when figuring out how to lane, normally at high level it is easy for one team to see how the opponent is gonna lane based on the lords picked but because the team knows this they might completely change their lanes so it will favour them but then the other team might change their lane thinking the other team will change their lane etc :D Because of this teams might change their lanes after 5 minutes because they got outsmarted by the other team and this will set them back in gold and experience and it doesn't mean they will recover.

2. Teams might smoke 4-5 people into the opponents jungle to find first blood but also gain information on how the opponent will lane and set their lanes up accordingly.

3. The norm is still 1 offlaner, 1 mid, 3 safelane I would say but you can put aggressive trilane if you have the lords for it like Ancient Apparition, Razor, Visage etc. Teams put aggressive trilane to completely shutdown the opponents carry who is usually in the safelane. It's not set in stone so you can lane however you like 1-2-2, 2-2-1, 1-1-(jungle)-2 etc it all depends on the lords, the other teams lords, what you want to get out of laning phase,

 

Glyphing

In the early game glyphs are usually used for either defending a push or getting a tower of your own. In the midgame you probably want to glyph for either defending, roshan or getting one sometimes two towers in your favour. In the lategame you hold on to those glyphs for the Tier 3 towers/Barracks it's okay to lose Tier 2 towers if you can't defend it but you might be able to defend Tier 3 (saving it for the most important time).

 

Being down in Gold/XP

You can be down in gold/xp early game by quite a bit if you have a team composition that comes online in the mid game, if laning phase doesn't go so well but you have lords that when they reach level 6 get a really important ultimate you can easily turn the gold/xp lead the other team might've gotten. Other times it's fine to be down in gold/xp when you have a really strong lategame hero that comes online after 30-40 minutes like Naga Siren/Spectre. You can however be completely screwed if you're down in gold/xp when you have a early game lineup. If however the game is 70+ minutes long and both teams are still in it the gold/xp graph don't matter at all because every hero probably have their key items by that time so it all comes down to one team fight or potentially no team fight if one team just split pushes their way to the win.

 

 

I don't know if any of this helped. Interesting tidbits BKB used to always be 10 seconds of magic immunity now it scales down with each use down to 4 seconds as minimum, Force Staff when first implemented was basically never purchased by pro teams as they deemed the item bad in comparison to blink dagger. Invoker way back in the day used to have 27 spells, now he only has 10 so it was even more buttons! :D, Skeleton King used to never be picked in competetive Dota but has now seen a lot of play after a lot of tweaking with his spells from Icefrog.

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I meant analysis during a game, but thank you. I know enough to ask some questions. I have general knowledge about some things and I'm familiar with multiple forms of managing lords in general. I need specifics, which is not to say you have not provided useful information, but more to say that my competition watching brain demands them. I'm a member of SABR (well, was until I let my dues lapse), I watch All-22 film of football games, I know where to look up my hockey team's Fenwick scores, Kevin Durant was a deserving winner of the MVP award because he led the league in PER. I want my casters to go into strategic depth, because the basic tactics and strategy get absorbed easily.

 

I like numbers'n stuff.

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I meant analysis during a game, but thank you. I know enough to ask some questions. I have general knowledge about some things and I'm familiar with multiple forms of managing lords in general. I need specifics, which is not to say you have not provided useful information, but more to say that my competition watching brain demands them. I'm a member of SABR (well, was until I let my dues lapse), I watch All-22 film of football games, I know where to look up my hockey team's Fenwick scores, Kevin Durant was a deserving winner of the MVP award because he led the league in PER. I want my casters to go into strategic depth, because the basic tactics and strategy get absorbed easily.

 

I like numbers'n stuff.

 

If you want in depth articles, all the results, schedule and such you should check out http://www.liquiddota.com/

 

example http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/dota-2-general/3060-ti4-americas-the-new-world

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I need specifics, which is not to say you have not provided useful information, but more to say that my competition watching brain demands them. I'm a member of SABR (well, was until I let my dues lapse), I watch All-22 film of football games, I know where to look up my hockey team's Fenwick scores, Kevin Durant was a deserving winner of the MVP award because he led the league in PER. I want my casters to go into strategic depth, because the basic tactics and strategy get absorbed easily.

 

I like numbers'n stuff.

 

I say this in all seriousness. There is a huge opportunity right now for someone to become the Bill James of Dota. The stats I see quoted during esports matches are the type of things you saw in US professional sports telecasts during the 70's and 80's. "This lord is 4-1 when picked in tournament play by that team since the last patch" is great for filling air time by giving commentators something to banter about, but it's a statistically insignificant sample. How has that lord performed across all tournaments since the last patch? How has it performed in ranked matches above a certain MMR since the last patch? How has this five lord combo performed in those settings since the last patch? Dotabuff does a good job of compiling raw statistical data, but it does very little to contextualize it. Datdota is doing some interesting things, but the analysis is in the very early stages. If the prize purses for esports continue to rise it's only a matter of time before some pro team brings a statistician on board to do a deeper analysis and find ways to exploit that knowledge in tournament play. I look forward to it.

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DotaMetrics does great analysis of builds and win rates, with some insight as to how he uses the stats the API spits out. 

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If you're watching in game you can look at the tool tips yourself anyway

 

But I am not watching in-game, and I am not going to be watching in-game any time soon.  Effectively zero non-player spectators will be watching in-game.

 

This is probably the most important thing to wrap your head around when you're thinking about expanding the audience of non-player spectators:  We do not play the game.

 

Most of us have never used the game software at all, and few of us ever will.

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You don't have to play the game to watch in-game. It's a really handy tool if you actually enjoy the game purely as a spectator sport. Why are you so down on that?

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You don't have to play the game to watch in-game. It's a really handy tool if you actually enjoy the game purely as a spectator sport. Why are you so down on that?

 

His point isn't that the viewing wouldn't potentially be enhanced by running the spectator client, it's that you can't build non-player coverage around tools inside the game because the people you're trying to appeal to may not even have heard of Steam before. You just have to approach non-player viewership as if you were presenting a telecast.

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No, he very specifically said he had no plans to use the game client for watching games any time soon. I'm addressing that. I don't care about anything else in his post, at least insofar as it's related to my last post.

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