Walking Dead Season the Second

[twmac]

Yeah, I was going to say that it might not have to do with the medicine, instead it was about the gun.

[Tanukitsune]

Frankly, the gun is even more in favor of my theory of them forgetting things, if Arvo says the medicine was stolen even if you let him go with it, but they completely forget that you stole his gun, something that seems to happen in both paths, it just shows they wants a new "steal provisions" situation, but pulled it off horribly for the reasons I stated before (nobody really uses them and they only exist to get you in trouble). The water you worked so hard to get magically disappears, I refuse to believe they drank it that fast (I made some guestimations and there is no way they could have drank both even if you rest before leaving) and it would be stupid to leave such a precious resource behind... they just forgot about it... or hoped we would.

 

So yeah, so far, the gun Arvo left behind is forgotten, the medicine is practically forgotten if you take it and the results are the same whether you take them or not and the most precious resource after medicine just disappears, so yeah.... they did forget things.... or hoped we wouldn't notice.

 

I guess you're kinda right, SuperBiasedMan, it would make sense for Kenny to act like Clementine is the new Lee, but the rest? As much as I like seeing Clementine grow, the way they treat her like she can do anything is kinda disturbing, even the new guys quickly join the "Yeah, I bet Clementine can solve this problem."

 

I just realized the group though Kenny was losing his mind and becoming dangerous and they send the CHILD to talk with him.

 

It's one thing to have a character grow and become stronger, but when you stop to think about it, she's not even a teenager yet and people are depending on her like she's some super hero.

 

If would be kinda hilarious if they they took this to an even bigger extreme and made the baby the hero of the next season and have the baby kill it's first zombie before it even learns to speak.

 

They never named the baby, did they? Is this another thing they forgot or is this some important decisions you make in the final chapter? I bet you get the option to name it Lee.

[Twig]

Nobody cared about the gun. It had no part in anything. The medicine isn't even remotely forgotten. Watching the youtube again just convinces me Argo was lying and he stole the medicine. That's why he was trying to hide it. And then he had a convenient scapegoat in Clementine, etc.  They probably didn't want to carry the water all the way to the city in the middle of freezing cold weather because it's so heavy. Who cares about the water when you're in a huge rush to get to a safer place.

 

You're reading way too much into this and what you're saying doesn't make sense.

 

EDIT:

You even have the option to blame Jane even if you didn't steal the medicine. Nobody forgot anything...

[Coods]

On that Clementine point:
 

I did like how they finally squashed the fucking "clementine fit into this hole" routine this episode. I was already groaning when red-hair was like "if only somebody could fit into this and open the door...." but then she gets stuck because shes not small anymore. 

 

I think having Clem talk to Kenny, considering that they have a long history, is perfectly reasonable.

 

Jane also basically seems to be exactly what Molly was for season 1. Sort of fell flat even though giving Clem a big sister was enjoyable.

[Tanukitsune]

Nobody cared about the gun. It had no part in anything. The medicine isn't even remotely forgotten. Watching the youtube again just convinces me Argo was lying and he stole the medicine. That's why he was trying to hide it. And then he had a convenient scapegoat in Clementine, etc.  They probably didn't want to carry the water all the way to the city in the middle of freezing cold weather because it's so heavy. Who cares about the water when you're in a huge rush to get to a safer place.

 

You're reading way too much into this and what you're saying doesn't make sense.

 

EDIT:

You even have the option to blame Jane even if you didn't steal the medicine. Nobody forgot anything...

But if you take the medicine it only exists to give the pills to give to the mother who is going to die anyway. Like I said it makes no sense for them to take the medicine and NOT treat their wounds, specially Kenny.

And the scene I was shown has Arvo leaving with the medicine, so if you didn't steal it and Jane leaves... it's just so far-fetched that she'd go after Arvo just for the medicine.

It's possible that the birth made everybody forgot about their pains, but if you choose the stolen medicine path, we never see it again. That's what I'm saying, the moment you leave Jane behind, you never see the medicine again. That's sloppy.

As for the water:

-It IS a precious resource, it's worth carrying around.

-They could have easily found at least one container and split the water among the team members.

It's kinda frustrating... in the final scene only one of them is carrying a backpack and not a single canteen, but of course, everybody is armed to the teeth. :|

I'm kinda tempted to replay the second season to see how many essential resources the game forces us to gather only to forget about them later.

I have a feeling the first season was a bit more careful about this.

Anyway, drama-wise the writing is OK, but it's sloppy how somethings are just left unmentioned or forgotten.

To sum it up, they are constantly whining about resources, but unless the item is part of Clementine's inventory, they always seems to forget about the resources they had or make a lame excuse, like how when you find the water they claim it will be used up very quickly so when we never see the water again, we're supposed to believe this stupid story.

[Twig]

Nothing about the medicine is forgotten. You're wrong about that. I'm sorry.

[Tanukitsune]

I don't know what to say, but 

if having it disappear after the Arvo incident doesn't count as it being forgotten, I don't know what does. I know Arvo uses the medicine as an excuse to attack your group, but it simply ceases to exist as an object the moment you leave the scene, you can tell your group about, you can get in trouble for it, but you never use it. Kenny needed the medicine for his eye, Luke seems to have broken a rib or two, Mike has some cuts and bruises the could do with some medicine and yet... all you do is give some pills to make the birth less painful, which I'm sure the scene plays the same if you don't have medicine and she dies anyway, so I simply can't see how you can say the medicine is forgotten. As a plot device to get you in trouble? That they remember, but does the game actually let you USE the medicine? No, that's what I'm trying to say.... it exists as a plot element, not as an object, they do forget how much the rest of the group needs medicine and not just use it as an excuse for you to make a grey moral decision to help a pregnant woman.

 

TL;DR version: plot-wise, the medicine isn't forgotten, as a physical thing that can be used for more than helping a pregnant woman, the game pretty much ignores it (What? We have other wounded? But giving pills to a pregnant woman is more emotional, dammit!).

 

That's all I'll say about the issue, I only partially agree with you... In the way you see it, it wasn't forgotten, in the way I see it, they did.

[Twig]

Why do you assume that because they didn't show every single person needing the medicine using it that they didn't use it off screen? It's pretty common in story-telling of all varieties to leave out the unimportant details like that because it's obvious what they're going to do.

[Tanukitsune]

Because it's obvious they didn't, Kenny has the exact same bandages he had since the injury, for example, I know it's extra assets to create, they didn't even give him clean bandages. And don't say it's unimportant,

for all we know Kenny will have to wear an eye patch in the next season because we never treated his wounds.

 

 

Oh and...

I'm only making an assumption here but when Kenny is surprised to hear you "robbed" Arvo, he doesn't add or assume it was the medicine. As if he didn't even know about the medicine.

 

I've rewatched a few longplays and she doesn't tell them about the medicine, so yeah, she literally forgets about the medicine until Arvo comes back.

 

Clementine really didn't have time to tell anybody about the medicine, unless she did it "off-screen", which she couldn't have... because of what I said before about Kenny's looks and reaction.

 

So after rewatching different versions of the scene, I'm even more positive that she literally forgets about the medicine, now more than ever.

 

The more I think about they more it seems it's like car supplies scene in season 1, it exists just to get us in trouble and then "stops existing" once it's served it's purpose of dooming you all. It's a plot object to trigger a future cutscene, not a "real object".

[Twig]

So because the models and textures didn't change, you assume the worst?

I mean, have you played a video game before?

 

Kenny's going to be wearing an eyepatch because he doesn't have a fucking eye anymore.

[Erkki]

This is an adventure game, not a survival horror / resource management game. The medicine as an inventory object is not important. The game barely makes use of inventory any more, anyway. And I don't see how the episode would have improved if you (as Clementine, M.D.) had to go and use the medicine on everyone.

[shammack]

But what if there weren't enough medicine for everybody and you had to go around and choose whom to give it to

[Professor Video Games]

This conversation is dumb and I'm going to get involved!

 

In my playthrough I didn't steal the medicine. It seems reasonable that Arvo has kept some for himself and his sick sister. Or that he hid some to explain to the others why he lost his gun (which they go out of their way to show has been left behind). If they never explain why the rest of the Russians think you stole it when you didn't, then yeah that's pretty weak but I'll wait for the next episode to judge. If you do steal the medicine, do they explain what kind there is? Maybe most of it isn't immediately useful. Regardless, I don't think showing the characters use it would have added much. Same with the water. Maybe they put it in smaller bottles they have on them? They mention having other supplies (like baby formula) even though the character models don't look like they have space to carry much. It's not worth agonizing over.

 

What bothers me more is that Clem never mentions Arvo to the rest of the group. Seems like a big deal that there's definitely another group somewhere nearby. A guy in a leg brace is not making it on his own. It's hard to believe both she and Jane would keep this to themselves, even if they just leave the medicine part out of it to avoid a fight (assuming you let him keep it). Instead she never tells anyone which conveniently lets this ambush happen. And I agree there's been a bit too much leaning on Clem. Her opinion is too highly valued for just a kid, no matter how tough she is. I think the game would benefit from her being treated like a child by at least a few of the adults. The only time I've really felt helpless was in the cabin with Carver.

 

In the end, despite waiting the few extra days, Rebecca dies and I chose to shoot her, which results in lots of unseen gunfire. What happens if you call for help? I was too preoccupied with the image of Rebecca munching on her own baby to think about the consequences of my taking the shot. I thought that decision was really well implemented and overall I liked this episode a lot.

[Tanukitsune]

Kenny shoots her if you hesitate.

 

Fine, let's ignore the medicine and assume Kenny has lost his eye, even though the game has yet to say how bad the wound is, but like Spork just said they never mention the whole Arvo thing, which still supports the whole "something ceases to exist until it comes as a plot device to hurt them" theory.

 

When Clementine didn't tell anybody about the guy on the walkie talkie on season one, it made sense, he threatened her. But Arvo? Fine, ignore all the wounds or assume the use the medicine somehow, but like Spork said, Clem and Jane know there is another group nearby and tell nobody.

 

I don't think it would have prevented the ambush, since they raise their weapons pretty quickly and were at a Mexican stand off, I wouldn't say they fell for the ambush. But I still think it's a big mistake plot-wise for her not to tell, it's out of her character not to warn others of danger. Maybe they are carrying the medicine and the water somehow, and maybe Kenny's eye is still bleeding so badly after a few days, but in the ending it's obvious nobody but Clem knew who Arvo was.

[Twig]

He got bashed on his face for like thirty seconds right where his eye is. It ain't comin' back. How you can think it has any chance of still working is beyond me. In fact, if it does come back, it's only because Kenny's developed some sort of supernatural self-healing powers. He is the anti-zombie. Explains how he survived the end of season one, I suppose.

 

Yeah, it all makes sense now.

[Tanukitsune]

No, I re-watched the scene and he beat him in the area next it, nobody says he's lost his eye, they just say he's beat up pretty bad. He got a big gash next to his eye, but who knows maybe Telltale is explicitly not saying Kenny is blind in one eye just in hopes of surprising people when he is... even though he was never punched directly in the eye. 

 

I did some research and it just happens the episode I found some flaws in it was written by people who haven't worked on a TT game before, so I stand by my stance that this episode has sloppy writing. If nobody else wants to see it, fine, it's not worth talking about anymore, although it feels some people are agreeing the episode has flaws, we can't seem to agree on which ones are valid, which only makes me want to stop talking about it even more.

 

Frankly, TT games generally have a forgivable flaw or two, this just happens to be the only episode where the flaws did bother me. That's all I'll say. 

[Professor Video Games]

I'm pretty sure the doctor guy mentions he's unlikely to be able to save the eye. I'll bet it's looking GROSS under that bandage.

 

Can we speculate on the next episode? Should that sort of thing be spoilered?

I think they (whoever survives that gunfight) will find Christa with the Russians and she'll end up taking care of the baby...a second chance after having lost hers. And I think Kenny will survive everything despite more attempts at noble self sacrifice because he is clearly unkillable. I also think Jane will come back because she doesn't actually have it in her to abandon Clem after what happened with her sister. She'll probably die in the process though. Or maybe they'll all join up with the Russians who actually have some sort of awesome and safe basecamp and everyone will live happily ever after!

[Tanukitsune]

Well, we all know at least someone will die and since they confirmed a third season at SDCC we know it WON'T be the grand finale.

 

It's hard to tell, but I don't see them joining forces with the Russians, they are obviously surviving by robbing others, but I could speculate that Arvo was used as bait and might join the group... if we accept them.

 

All we know is that are trying to reach the city, it's possible there will be a big argument and you might have a pick a group of the few that survive. It would be weird to kill Kenny since died in the season one finale.

 

Like in all Walking Dead games the plans will be ruined someway and Clementine will leave the city by the skin of her teeth with some other survivor... but that would be a repeat of the season one finale too, right? but since the episode is called "no turning back", it might be about them going further North in the end.

 

The baby should play some important part in the plot, I bet Clem with have the choice to name her, and that one of the choices is Lee. I'm calling it!

 

Frankly, since I think Kenny came back only due to his popularity, Kenny, Clem and one more survivor will make to the next season... It might be a new addition, someone from the past or someone from the current team... I'm not entirely sure the baby will survive the episode, but if it does I guess it might actually cause some conflict between Kenny and Clem... Kenny already sees Clem as "the new Duck" and the baby seems to have triggered something in him... with the mother dead, the only one with experience to take care of the baby is Kenny (more reasons for him to survive until next season), but he's being creepy about it and I think he's already got "New Duck" syndrome again.

 

Does anybody think they'll kill Clem, most of us are here just to her story arc and see her grow. At least I am.

[Twig]

No, I re-watched the scene and he beat him in the area next it

that will murder your eye

[Twig]

Well I finished the game. Don't have a whole lot to say, surprisingly...

 

...I don't really like the way it ended.

 

Also

 

I know Telltale already confirmed there's going to be a season three. I am

 

not

 

I don't think it's a good idea? A third season of running around avoiding zombies or maybe killing zombies while everyone argues with each other about what's best? Hm. What I'd like to see them do is pull a whole Prison out of this place they've ended up in. Like just a whole arc where they live there and survive there and deal with new people showing up and old friends leaving. Not that there are many old friends left.

 

Also I went with Jane. I shot Kenny. I hated it but I couldn't not do it. And then I was pissed at Jane for tricking me and tricking Kenny and making me fucking kill Kenny. And then I had to pretend to forgive her because I couldn't be alone with this baby. That would be fucking irresponsible as shit. Except it's rather obvious the game took my forgiveness as sincere. I think this is the first time the amount of player agency provided was so little that it actually pissed me off. I've had conversations every now and then where I couldn't say what I wanted to say or what I chose to say wasn't what I meant, but I rolled with it as "that's Clementine, not me". But this time Clementine wouldn't have just up and forgiven Jane. Not as I played her. And she also wouldn't have abandoned Jane. Not as I played her. Fuck. Sucks. C'est la vie. Can't win 'em all, I suppose. Anyway, yeah, ended up back at Carver's old kingdom, and some family showed up and it was Super Tense Guys Watch Out and I let 'em in.

 

Wonder just how different things would be if I let Kenny kill Jane, instead. Would we have gone north? Would we have found Wellington?

 

If there's a season three, I have a hard time seeing how such a possible branching could believable come back together. And if there's a season three, it obviously can't fulfill my wishes of being a static environment for the duration.

 

I don't know why I said "if" twice, since it's confirmed, but whatever.

 

Maybe it'll be like a years-long time skip and Clementine will be older with like a five year old kid in tow. Hmmm. That could be interesting, too. Raising a brand new kid in the post-apocalypse, instead of just a not quite brand new kid.

 

Anyway I found the ending rather... lackluster. It just kinda farted in my face and it was over. Ugh.

 

turns out i had some shit to say after all

 

blargh

[Coods]

 

Sometimes I wonder if the thought of branching-narrative unsustainability is what pressures the game to skew in certain directions. I'm really not too hot on the idea that literally EVERYONE except Clem either dies or becomes a huge asshole (except for the baby, we'll see), and I'm afraid they made that decision because they needed Season 3 to have more freedom. 

 

My theory for season 3 is what I think is the natural progression of Clem's story. A lot of the Season 2 trailers emphasized the growth of Clementine and how she develops as a person based on your choices, and there's a lot of cuts back to season 1 Clem just to show the contrast. 

 

While you only play Lee in Season 1, the most "significant" decisions you make are ultimately the ones that affect Clem in season 2. In season 2 you actually play Clementine, and rather than be a child that is "in-progress" and somewhat of a liability, you are capable, articulate and treated as an integral member of the group. To finish her growth, Clem of Season 3 is a little (if not a lot) older, who is responsible for a child and most likely also the full-blown leader of her own group. Seems like the only logical set up to me. 

 

Season 2 was of course a different kind of product than Season 1, and I still enjoyed all of it. This finale unfortunately ends on such a shameful note for every character that I can't help but feel genuinely depressed about the whole thing. Regardless of the "do what you need to do" motif that ran through this whole season, it still sucks seeing Kenny, who ended last season sacrificing his life for another, dying this season right before he kills another group member.

 

[Tanukitsune]

I'm kinda annoyed by the ending specially knowing there is a third season, it just means that Wellington (or wherever you ended up) will be overrun by walkers in the next season and all the effort was for naught. If you end up with Wellington with Kenny and at Carver's with Jane.... how will season three even work? I already answered my question with "overrun with walkers" thing.

 

I'm kinda angry how all of the sudden everybody was against Kenny, I never really trusted Arvo and the fact the group was leaving with all the supplies leaving us with a newborn... makes them bigger monsters than they claimed Kenny is... I'm getting tired of the old "KENNY IS DANGEROUS!", specially since Jane provoked Kenny to attack her.... You told the baby died and he doesn't like you, you know he probably think you didn't care about the baby and probably let it die on purpose... You know he's in dark place... what the hell is wrong with you? Did she expect Clem to just go "Wow, you sure showed me Kenny true colors by being an evil manipulative person! Let's be a family now!"?

 

Seriously, it's stupidly convenient how everybody turned on Kenny, Arvo convinced the group to betray us and leave with all the supplies and with the baby.... proving KENNY WAS RIGHT! Arvo shot Clem, dammit!

Kenny just lost the love of his life, was brutally beaten up and when the mother dies, he feels like the only one capable of taking care of the baby.... And he probably is.

 

Jane didn't seem to like the baby that much and seeing that the rest were willing to let the baby die to escape the "evil" Kenny proves he was right. It's also too convenient that Arvo hates Kenny, but not me... the one who shot his sister when she turned. 

 

Everything seems so forced in this finale, in the first one it seems natural to lose the group slowly, but here? It felt like everybody had to die because it's the finale.

 

I know I said the next season will do something forced to make the selection we make practically meaningless, but just how many different ending does this have?

-You can leave with Arvo, apparently, who know how that would branch out.

-You can kill Kenny or let him kill Jane or let him kill Jane and kill him?

-You stay at Wellington or leave with Kenny since they don't allow more people.

 

That's at least five different scenarios to start with, even if they do the "five years later" thing, I'm curious how to see they will force all the paths back to one, there is no way season three will have more than a prologue with all these scenarios to juggle. And like I said, I'm upsetting to know that you decision will have to be undone for the sake of a new season. 

 

I'm not sure I'm looking forward to a new season, if every Telltale game from now on is going to be a "Bad Decision Simulator", it's going to get old fast.

 

I really hope the Borderlands game will be at least a comedic "Bad Decision Simulator" to have some variety, specially since it's already to feel like a "Incredibly Forced Bad Decision Simulator".

[Twig]

I feel like you miss a million story beats and character cues every time you play these games.

 

Arvo fucking hates Clementine. There are at least three instances I can think of off the top of my head, and more I'd see if I went and played again to find them where he gives her dirty looks. Arvo fucking hates Kenny. There are at least fifty instances of Kenny bullying Arvo, and one specific instance of Kenny beating Arvo bloody.

 

Arvo is allowed to hate more than one person. Especially when both of those people are obviously close, and he already has reason to hate them both separately. It's naturally going to build up.

 

The fact that Arvo is also obviously a conniving bastard who took advantage of Mike and Bonnie feeling pity for him after Kenny beat him bloody for no good reason only further compounds the situation. Or did you forget that Kenny's reasoning for beating Arvo - that there was no food - ended up being false? Arvo was telling the truth! WHOA. CRAZY. He was obviously going to turn on Clementine eventually, because of his sister (as evidenced by the aforementioned dirty looks), but he had no reason to hate Kenny until Kenny gave him a reason.

 

Not to mention...

 

Of course everyone hates Kenny! He's an egotistical, arrogant asshole! If someone disagrees with them, he gets angry! If someone CONTINUES disagreeing with him, he STAYS angry perpetually! This is not a new thing. It happened all throughout season one, and continued to happen all throughout season two once he showed up. The fact that he lost his loved ones is not what caused this behavior. It only amplified it. And even if it was, people are naturally inclined to dislike someone when they're being a piece of shit, no matter the reasons. He was acting like a goddamn crazy person. You act like it's completely out of the question to hate Kenny, for some reason I don't understand.

 

Also, I don't know why you think Mike, Bonnie, and Arvo had the baby with them. They didn't.

 

Kenny is one of my favorite characters precisely because of the way he's written, but that doesn't mean he isn't also a piece of shit within this world.

 

And if you want to play a Telltale game that isn't a... "Bad Decision Simulator", as you call it, there's A Wolf Among Us... Another thing that makes them different is how TWD is all about having no control over the situation. AWAU is all about taking control of the situation, regardless of what the universe tells you should be happening.

 

I agree with your general unhappiness with the ending. I don't like it, either. I just feel like you missed a lot of things that would've made it considerably less shitty for you.

 

I especially don't like

the way it basically sets up a total reset for season three - neither Jane nor Kenny can be in it, obviously, unless they want to develop two separate storylines. Or want to kill them off early next season depending on who you went with. If you even went with anyone, because you could choose to abandon Jane if you end up saving her.

 

Or unless they just go with an entirely new character.

 

Bleh. Such a sour taste.

[Jordan A]

But this time Clementine wouldn't have just up and forgiven Jane. Not as I played her. And she also wouldn't have abandoned Jane. Not as I played her.

 

It's not explicit, because there's no Y button "..." option, but you can remain silent there by letting the timer run out and Clem will do both things you wanted.

[Twig]

Ah! Dagnabbit darn dangit damn.