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Jake

Idle Thumbs 71: Nothing's as Good as Ya Eat 'Em

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I'm not saying people are forbidden to make jokes about sexism. I'm saying that care has to be taken to tell jokes about sexism that don't just serve as a blind or even an excuse for sexism's ubiquity and acceptability, however inadvertent. I rarely see would-be comedians and humorists willing to take that care.

I mean, look at that poster. Really, if there is a joke to be had besides a nice set of cartoon breasts and hips, what is that joke? Is it just supposed to be funny that sexism and the male gaze are pervasive enough to make their way onto an unrelated wanted poster? How does that raise awareness? Minstrel acts reinforced that racism existed in the early- and mid-twentieth century, but they weren't exactly an asset to that cause.

In the end, I feel like it's a little cowardly to hold humor as sacrosanct when it is such a powerful normative force in society. "Chill out, it's just a joke" is a nightmarish statement for a lot of people to hear about a lot of things.

I don't think the analogy to minstrel shows hold up, because they weren't made to make fun of racism, they were made to entertain white people by reaffirming their stereotypes. There's a lot of 'humor' around that consists entirely of referencing a stereotype without commenting on it in any substantial way: I like to call this Mencia humor. This sort of 'joke' is super not useful, but it's worth pointing out that's it's also not very funny, so maybe that works out. Conversely, actual intelligent jokes tell us about ourselves, how sometimes we can be surprised to be shocked by something (or surprised by our implicit assumptions being laid bare by comedy). Comedy, as with fiction, can tell subversive truths we aren't willing to hear barefacedly.

I really don't want to get into freedom of speech issues here since that often tends to get into weird conflated arguments about legal freedom of speech vs ethical speech. However, I would never say 'chill out, it's just a joke.' I don't think humor should get a free pass because it's irrelevant, but I think it should never be verboten to be humorous because it's an incredibly important element of social interaction. Humor is powerful, humor is dangerous, humor changes the world, parody pierces our problems, satire shows us the scabs. By sacrificing this for pointless solemnity we sacrifice much of our ability to change minds which weren't already receptive to our message.

So, yes, comedians have an ethical obligation to reflect on their jokes, and the great ones do. However, if I never again hear someone unironically say 'no laughing matter' it will be too soon.

PS: The joke is that the gravity of the crimes on the wanted poster is at odds with the frivolous and self-interested behavior of the photographer.

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I don't think the analogy to minstrel shows hold up, because they weren't made to make fun of racism, they were made to entertain white people by reaffirming their stereotypes.

[...]

PS: The joke is that the gravity of the crimes on the wanted poster is at odds with the frivolous and self-interested behavior of the photographer.

To me, your first sentence corresponds exactly to what the poster does, not what's in your PS. But I haven't been exposed to Borderlands beside trailers an short playthrough; so maybe I don't have the context.

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I think that gets to the heart of what's so tricky about debates like these, so much of it is up to the perceptions of the individual involved. But that's communication for ya. It's entirely possible that just because I tend not to occupy quite the same space as most other people culturally my interpretations are super divorced from reality, or the commonly accepted reality. I think in interactions like these I tend to employ a highly literal mindset, because otherwise things tend to devolve into, well, internet arguments. So maybe I'm deaf to the connotations that are apparent to other people-- at the same time, I feel like those connotations often override the actual communications that could be happening and turn things into fights that never should have been.

I don't know. I'm rambling.

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Regardless of the intentions of the people who created these things, I understand that many women find that kind of depiction of them to be off-putting and to contribute towards a general culture that makes them feel unwelcome or uncomfortable. That even when there are 'strong' female characters they are almost always as seen through the lens of a man, for other men. That this kind of thing emphasises an asymmetry in the culture that is gross and unhealthy.

I like boobs and I like looking at that poster, but I think I would rather have games that are more welcoming, or at least not actively hostile, toward half the population.

Maybe where there is a question about whether something is or isn't sexist, or when creating something that, on reflection, might be considered sexist, we should perhaps take into account the context of the society and especially the industry in which we exist. Where there is huge amounts of vitriol and contempt for women, who are casually and regularly objectified or talked down to. Maybe it might be a good idea, just in terms of compassion, to behave as though things that might not be intended to be sexist, but might or might not actually be sexist, are acting on the culture just the same as if they really were sexist.

If we are to take the most generous interpretation of the poster, then if a game wants to comment on the issue of sexism, maybe it should take into account that context and not just do it so casually and ambiguously and try to say something more substantial or thought provoking than "haaa, boobs. That photographer was a sexist."

(sentence structure, you have defeated me)

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It's a very good point, and I wish that was the dialogue that we were having with the industry. Instead of explanations, I usually see excoriations, which only puts people on the defensive.

Oh well. All I can try to do is to do better myself and foment dialogue where I can.

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Who would have thought a dominant atmosphere of female subjugation would arise from an industry trading heavily in male power fantasy? This is why I usually wait until my wife has gone to bed before I indulge my grottiest and most lowbrow of pastimes.....or possibly my second grottiest.

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At first that poster kinda made sense, in terms of what the most effective way of garnering the attention of the average Pandoran, but I don't honestly think Steele would've let that shit fly.

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At first that poster kinda made sense, in terms of what the most effective way of garnering the attention of the average Pandoran, but I don't honestly think Steele would've let that shit fly.

Funny you say that, those posters were in the general Knoxx DLC when Steele was dead and Knoxx was kind of the guy who hated doing his 9 to 5 and wanted to be ANYWHERE but Pandora. Since dealing with the valut hunters was such a chore he probably didn't give a damn about some posters.

Anyway I wish I had time to catch up and make some solid arguments here but unfortunately I don't and some people are pretty weary of this topic anyway. I will say that I have been convinced that the marketing of this game was pretty demeaning in regards to Lilith which is a shame because none of that is really characterized in game. There she came off as this thrill seeker on a bit of a power trip.

Since I gotta go though here are some articles that I think shed some pretty good insight on the whole debacle

http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/sexism-as-inclusion-why-the-press-and-developers-have-such-trouble-talking

http://www.kotaku.com.au/2012/08/this-is-an-interview-with-randy-pitchford/

The PAR one is another great editorial from Ben Kuchera, the Kotaku one is a bit fluffy but still worth the short read.

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What.

Ya, I think it has to do with you not being able to play as a female character in ARMA 2 and the designer of Day Z said it will be fixed in the future.

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I love how once TF2 came out, game art became noticeably more "Oh, silhouettes are important!"

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Funny you say that, those posters were in the general Knoxx DLC when Steele was dead and Knoxx was kind of the guy who hated doing his 9 to 5 and wanted to be ANYWHERE but Pandora. Since dealing with the valut hunters was such a chore he probably didn't give a damn about some posters.

Oh yeah, I forgot they only appeared there. I felt so bad for Knoxx. He was clearly in the wrong game universe, he desperately needed one where anyone was sane.

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I tried to watch the DayZ vods on the Twitch channel, but none of the videos work any more. I watched the FTL ones last week and it worked then, are any of you guys having the same problem?

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Part 1 never worked for me; but I just checked and Part2/3 are still working on my end.

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They're all working for me right now in Chrome.

Edit: Man, I am watching the streams right now (was in and out with errands last weekend), and they are stressing me out! The ghost zombie in the castle was so freaky.

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Well now everything works again, I don't know what the problem was but it seems to have been specific to the idle thumbs channel because I could still watch SC2, and it's all back in working condition now.

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Okay well I'm pretty sure everyone here is super fucking sick of the girlfriend mode topic but just in case anyone isn't I wrote a thousand words on it last Friday:

Insensitivity and Marginalization

In it I discuss how, while I still don't believe the phrase 'girlfriend mode' is sexist per se, it is super insensitive to the current climate of categorical dismissal and diminution of women in gaming. I think it turned out pretty okay!

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I never know whether to laugh or cry when Chris spends ten minutes talking about how he's uncomfortable reading a reader mail if it takes more than 90 seconds to read aloud.

I get the impression he thinks that spending too long reading aloud makes for bad radio? I don't think that's the case. Sure, if the e-mail is tedious or repetitive or digressive or spends two paragraphs on how much he loves the 'cast, you wouldn't want to read the whole thing. But if it's a good e-mail, I don't think it would make the podcast grind to a halt, and I don't think it actually takes as long as it seems when you're reading it.

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I never know whether to laugh or cry when Chris spends ten minutes talking about how he's uncomfortable reading a reader mail if it takes more than 90 seconds to read aloud.

I get the impression he thinks that spending too long reading aloud makes for bad radio? I don't think that's the case. Sure, if the e-mail is tedious or repetitive or digressive or spends two paragraphs on how much he loves the 'cast, you wouldn't want to read the whole thing. But if it's a good e-mail, I don't think it would make the podcast grind to a halt, and I don't think it actually takes as long as it seems when you're reading it.

We get some REALLY long email. Even the relatively long ones I've read have been heavily paraphrased.

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Regarding Ultimas: Ultima 9 (rightly) gets pilloried for being an unfinished mess that required hardware that didn't exist when it released. But Ultima 9 did (or tried to do) first a whole lot of stuff you see in open-world, single-character, action RPG's like Morrowind, Oblivion, Gothic, Risen, Divinity 2 (Dragon Knight), the Witcher, Two Worlds, Venetica, etc.

The first of those I played, Gothic 2, felt practically like a remake of Ultima 9--done right.

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This is an interesting discussion I didn't get to participate in. I'm so glad that internet forums allow me to think of conversation in a non-disposable way.

I hadn't heard the critical argument that Borderlands had sexist content. It's interesting.

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I'm kind of trying to parse what exactly the deal is with that quote...?

That math stuff wasn't originally posted by you was it?

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