Microsoft Surface

[Nachimir]

The moral of this story is: Many people respond primarily to aesthetics. If your competition is prettier, you are often doomed.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I must be a complete idiot, because that looks really bulky. I never had the original fat iPod -- only had a 5th gen one, but whenever I saw/held one of the thick ones, it seemed really fat and bulky. And the Zune is a bit more so. But if it was otherwise better in every way, I might have decided to get a Zune if I had needed one. I don't usually buy new hardware often (e.g. my current iPhone 3GS I've had 3 years and it's my 3rd ever phone, and I suspect it will last 1-2 more years -- the second one was a stupid Fujitsu Windows Mobile 5 PDA/Phone that was a real mistake to buy).

Firstly, as I said, the photograph is not an accurate portrayal of real life (it's distorted).

Here's an image that shows far more accurately the differences in sizes (yes, SiN, this IS a 30GB 5G iPod -- the curved edges and reflective surfaces help hide its true dimensions in photographs, but not in real life).

(Also, I made mistake before, I said the Zune screen was 20% bigger, when actually it's 44% bigger. Math fail.)

Secondly, Erkki, by my definition then, you would NOT be an idiot... (perhaps you should read more carefully what I wrote).

[MrHoatzin]

You MUSTN'T forget that Zune had HD Radio on it! It is obviously a million times better than the iPoop.

[Nachimir]

the curved edges and reflective surfaces help hide its true dimensions

This is commonly known as "industrial design".

[ThunderPeel2001]

This is commonly known as "industrial design".

Your pocket is immune to "industrial design".

[Nappi]

I like how that size comparison sketch is presented in such a strong perspective. Very Apple Keynote-ish.

Also, that Microsoft Surface thing looks interesting.

[jeremywc]

Also, that Microsoft Surface thing looks interesting.

Stop it. This thread is about Zunes now.

[Thrik]

Not that I find this discussion particularly riveting, but the photos above were looking weirdly inconsistent to me so for what it's worth, here are the actual widths of the devices based on Wikipedia and a CNET review from the time :

Zune30: 0.58 inches

iPod 5G 30GB: 0.4 inches

So the actual difference is 0.18 inches, or to put it another way 31%.

Details and specifications aside, I personally think the Zune looked less ergonomic and attractive than the iPod. I won't deny that the attractiveness of a gadget factors into my purchasing decisions, because if I'm going to be using something on a daily basis I want it to look and feel great in my hand. I think if the Zune had looked a bit better it'd probably have found its way into more peoples' pockets.

[SiN]

So I'm reaaaally trying to not be a jerk here, but man are you making this difficult.

So the actual difference is 0.18 inches, or to put it another way 31%.

This. If you don't see 30% as a problem then, as you said, that speaks volumes.

That speaks volumes.

It certainly speaks to where both our priorities lie, yes.

The moral of this story is: Many people respond primarily to aesthetics. If your competition is prettier, you are often doomed.

This also, but I'm actually making a stronger argument:

I'm arguing that the Zune didn't fail because of media BIAS, or because it was a particularly terrible device. It failed because it wasn't a remarkable improvement over the incumbent, and the reviews reflected that.

If you're 5 years late to the party, being competent isn't good enough. The Zune was a thicker (and yes, uglier) device, with a very young "ecosystem", no price advantage, and didn't have feature-parity with the iPod. It was competent sure, and better in some technical aspects too, but it wasn't remarkable in any way.

It turns out "normal" people don't really care about minor technical improvements (this includes: better sound quality, HD radio, the ejecting thing). They don't care you can't really blame them for it.

They *will* sit up and notice remarkable innovations though, even if the product does have shortcomings that would send tech journalists into a fit (again, see: iPod, iPhone, iPad, Wii, Kinect).

(to be fair, I'd call Zune Pass pretty damn remarkable, but again, it takes more than that when you're 5 years late to the party!)

I don't even know what we're talking about anymore. I think all the points have been made, and needless to say, I disagree.

So, agree to disagree?

Sure.

So how about that Microsoft Surface then, eh?!

[ThunderPeel2001]

Not that I find this discussion particularly riveting, but the photos above were looking weirdly inconsistent to me so for what it's worth, here are the actual widths of the devices based on Wikipedia and a CNET review from the time :

Zune30: 0.58 inches

iPod 5G 30GB: 0.4 inches

So the actual difference is 0.18 inches, or to put it another way 31%.

As I keep repeating, I actually held them in my hands and compared them for myself. I know that doesn't seem to count for anything here, as everyone wants to just go to Wikipedia and argue, but for one final time:

The iPod 5G 30GB was 0.43 inches

Don't believe me? How about Apple? Will you believe them?

So the difference is actually 0.15 inches... As I believe I've stated one or two times before.

The percentage difference is, of course, utterly redundant. Why? Because it's entirely down to what's reasonable or not reasonable to place in your pocket/hold in your hand.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I'm arguing that the Zune didn't fail because of media BIAS, or because it was a particularly terrible device. It failed because it wasn't a remarkable improvement over the incumbent, and the reviews reflected that.

I have to ask, just who exactly are you arguing with? I agree with your statement, with the only caveat that the press turned against it before it was given a chance to live. It was at worst on par with the iPod, but the press treated it as if it was significantly inferior. It wasn't.

I have no argument with the idea that some of the public didn't bite because it wasn't an obvious improvement over the iPod, but I don't see how you can claim with any authority that the poor press reviews didn't also affect things. What proof do you have of that?

[Lu]

0.03 inches is about 0.762 millimeters. It's a bit uh... What's the english idiom for mierenneuken?

Edit: Splitting hairs! it was on the tip of my tongue the entire time.

Edited June 29, 2012 by PiratePooAndHisBattleship

[SiN]

The first Zune shat all over the iPod that was available at the time

It was at worst on par with the iPod

So are you now saying "It was at worst on par with the iPod"? Or it was better? Or it shat all over the iPod?

If you don't believe the Zune "shit all over" the iPod (whatever that means) then perhaps this discussion has been in vain.

I have no argument with the idea that some of the public didn't bite because it wasn't an obvious improvement over the iPod, but I don't see how you can claim with any authority that the poor press reviews didn't also affect things. What proof do you have of that?

No proof. But I mentioned a bunch of devices that did perfectly alright despite the tech media being heavily BIAS against them. The build-up to the DS/PSP being the one I remember the most vividly.

[ThunderPeel2001]

So are you now saying "It was at worst on par with the iPod"? Or it was better? Or it shat all over the iPod?

If you don't believe the Zune "shit all over" the iPod (whatever that means) then perhaps this discussion has been in vain.

I believe that the Zune 30 shits all over the iPod 5G.

[ThunderPeel2001]

0.03 inches is about 0.762 millimeters. It's a bit uh... What's the english idiom for mierenneuken?

Edit: Splitting hairs! it was on the tip of my tongue the entire time.

Well, apparently it's a big deal to some people. I've no idea why.

[SiN]

What you said to prompt this discussion was:

The first Zune shat all over the iPod that was available at the time -- and no journalists actually were impartial enough to notice.

That's a very different statement than:

I believe that the Zune 30 shits all over the iPod 5G.

[SiN]

Also, just for fun, is this the Apple media BIAS you were talking about?

http://www.loopinsight.com/2012/06/29/iphone-turns-5-here-are-the-naysayers/

[ThunderPeel2001]

What you said to prompt this discussion was:

That's a very different statement than:

??? Clearly the problem with this debate was my assumption you were arguing in English.

[SiN]

Very classy. I'm done here.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Praise be!

[Nachimir]

[TheLastBaron]

This was an excellent discussion of the Microsoft Surface.

[castorp]

Regarding your discussion of I-don't-know, PiratePooAndHisBattleship wins it with introducing me to the wonderful word "mierenneuken", which seems to translate to "antfucking".

[syntheticgerbil]

I was about to say, "mierenneuken" was the best part of the whole thread. That it translates to "antfucking" is just pure icing!

[elmuerte]

The english term is nitpicking. But antfucking has a better ring to it