V The Elder Scrolls

[Squid Division]

The combat still seems to be 'beating someone with a sack of rubber potatos though'.

I dislike the bounciness of the combat in Oblivion/Fallout, and it doesn't seem like they've fixed it. So, for me, it's a game I think I can wait on that I otherwise would have devoured for hundreds of hours as soon as it was released.

[MrHoatzin]

I was never too bothered by the obvious roll-a-d20-and-see-if-you-hit combat. In Fallout I used Vats more often than not so while it sure wasn't especially visceral, it made up in sheer brutality and grime.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I agree with Mr RacingFreak.

*Don't shoot!*

[racingfreak92]

I agree with Mr RacingFreak.

*Don't shoot!*

Glad to see someone actually read my post and not just the last line

[Orv]

Glad to see someone actually read my post and not just the last line

Well, I'll be honest, I thought your post was a bit, mmmmm, internet-y? To put it another way, it seems like you have expectations without data. But I do agree with a lot of it. That said, if it is Oblivion 1.5 and that .5 is;

-Back to the cool environments of Morrowind

-A better "people engine" (Khajiits look cool as hell now, for instance)

-Less endless rolling forests

Then you know what? I'm fine with that. Take my 60 bucks and call me in 1000 hours when I finally run out of things to do.

Elder Scrolls has very low thresholds of "It must do this to impress me!" for me because I've enjoyed them so much over the years. More Oblivion with a meatier place to explore and a new story?

(Also, the full E3 demo will be shown at QuakeCon this August, so I'm reserving any actual judgement until then.)

[racingfreak92]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ic6dKnv3WdU

You can see some of what im talking about in this video.

They talk about how amazing the free roaming dragons are, yet when the dragon lands in that stone temple its not facing the players position but where he had been before, and more importantly where the path is.

The combat with the bandit in the cave looks VERY much like oblivion with the sword slicing through him like he is a ghost. The only difference being that combat is shorter because attacks seem to do more damage. The finishing moves are not impressive at all.

The 3rd person walking animations do look better, though who knows how that will hold up on steeper terrain.

Todd mentions a "working economy" and says you can participate in it then immediately backtracks to say you can have small effects over it. He mentions how you will be able to destroy a woodmill but it sounds more like a staged event then a real economy. Sure messing up the woodmill changes the economy, but will buying all the wood or killing all the lumberjacks? This reminds me of something that was discussed on idlethumbs regarding world interaction (and how in heavy rain or something you can close a dudes eyes when he is dead, but you can only close one specific dudes eyes, not everyones eyes, which is not a true choice at all).

I was under the impression that Skyrim was running on an upgraded version of the engine used for Fallout 3 and Oblivion, but I see it being called "The Creation Engine" now and I dont believe thats what was used with their previous games. Anyone know whats up with that?

(Also Todd stumbles everywhere in this interview and many times just ignores the questions being asked, guess he was a bit off, I cant say I would enjoy an interview from the G4 idiots)

[Lu]

They're using their own, in-house developed engine and some other tech; their own version of SpeedTree and stuff like that. As far as I know, Creation has nothing in common with Gamebryo.

[Orv]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ic6dKnv3WdU

You can see some of what im talking about in this video.

Yeah, I've seen it (and pretty much every possible cut of the slimmed-down E3 footage as well) and it. . .

I get what you're saying, and yeah, it is kind of annoying that they're promising these things and they might not come through with them.

They're calling it Pre-Alpha footage there, which seems a bit odd to me, even if it is 5 months off. So I'm willing to cut them slack. Hell, I'm willing to cut them so much slack that I could hang the entire EA panopoly of developers and technicians.

The economy is an interesting idea, but I have never expected it to actually have a serious impact. Yeah, maybe killing the lumberjack in that town will mean that the main city doesn't sell bows or arrows anymore. That would be astounding. But I certainly don't expect it.

I guess what I'm saying is, I hold so many other games to such high standards because they haven't proved themselves, or they're trying something that could potentially be amazing but also isn't proven. At this point, I really just want a new Elder Scrolls.

[Sno]

That woodmill thing, i don't believe that will just be some kind of scripted quest event.

There's a lot of that living-world kind of stuff already in Oblivion, a lot of incredibly complex systemic stuff that just nobody really notices. Adventurers will go around diving through dungeons, hunters will go around chasing after deer, NPC's will go to shops and buy things. I mean, those systems are already there, but very restrained and simplified. They had a lot of big promises with all that radiant AI stuff in Oblivion, but it's pretty reeled in for the final release version of the game, and most people don't even notice that it's happening at all.

I remember reading those guys talk about how the entire gameworld just descended into chaos, spiraled out of control, when they gave their AI systems too much power. AI's would randomly break quests long before the player would discover them.

It seems the whole radiant story thing is going to be their solution to opening up on their radiant AI systems, because if the game can also generate quests on its own as needed and even replace NPC's as needed, you don't have to worry about the AI breaking things.

Generally, the impression Skyrim has left me with is that they're building redundancies into their crazy house of cards, to open up on their ideas about dynamic AI in a way they couldn't with Oblivion. (So functional economies.)

Also: Don't hold what was obviously a very heavily scripted E3 demo against the game.

E3 demos are almost always just barely functional charades.

Edit: Morrowind is inscrutable? Bethesda Game Studios is a mediocre developer?

A younger version of myself is flying into a rage.

The economy is an interesting idea, but I have never expected it to actually have a serious impact. Yeah, maybe killing the lumberjack in that town will mean that the main city doesn't sell bows or arrows anymore. That would be astounding.

This is about as much as i would expect, if the final released game actually delivers on this promise of a functional economy, it will probably be something like this.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Sno

[Orv]

So I don't know about the legality of this (there probably isn't any, considering their mild plea in the video) but here.

(Spoilers in case you have cramping ethical humanity left.)

www.dropbox.com/home

Name: skyrimfapfapfap(at)gmail.com

PW: Bethesda

Replace obvious symbology.

Easy enough to navigate to.

It's the QuakeCon presentation. Sync is a little messy towards the end.

[SometingStupid]

I think I'm with most of the other users here, Skyrim may end up being just Oblivion 1.5, but that doesn't bother me because that's pretty much all I want, I'll give you my money and you give me however many hundreds of hours of gameplay that I'll absolutely love and enjoy. Fair deal.

Sure, they may not deliver on everything that they're promising, but it's not too much of a big deal because they're adding new stuff and new systems and overall improving the game.

You could draw a comparison to DLC, but at the end of the day we're getting all new, fresh content, with new systems and a new storyline.

If you want that, buy this game. If you don't want that, stay away from this game.

[MrHoatzin]

I would personally prefer either Morrowind 3 or Fallout With Wizards. Oblivion was somewhat of a disappointment.

[mikemariano]

It's the QuakeCon presentation.

Ooh, even though this demo has been shown off in bits and pieces elsewhere, it's great to see it as one big playthrough.

Dumb question: do The Elder Scrolls games have anything like VATS, or is combat strictly real time?

Do I have to be accurate when I throw a fireball at somebody?

[Gwardinen]

Dumb question: do The Elder Scrolls games have anything like VATS, or is combat strictly real time?

Do I have to be accurate when I throw a fireball at somebody?

Real-time, though those slow-mo execution moves are new (as far as I remember) but they don't look like anything VATS-esque. Yes, you do have to be somewhat accurate, as you can miss with magical projectiles just like physical ones. Luckily they tend to be larger (at least in cross-section) than arrows.

My reaction on the presentation is the same as it's been for everything shown of Skyrim so far; I'm disappointed that the combat still looks floaty and dull (though I may or may not like the fact that bodies still ragdoll ridiculously at the instant of death), I'm pleased and intrigued by the new interface stuff - the 3D models in the inventory and the constellation skill/perks system as well as the "zoomed out" map and I'm suspicious of the Radiant Story and dynamic economy claims. The last primarily because they sound awfully similar to many claims made for Oblivion that never really panned out, or were heavily cut down for the release version.

[SometingStupid]

I would personally prefer either Morrowind 3 or Fallout With Wizards. Oblivion was somewhat of a disappointment.

I'd like to ask as to what sense it was a disappointment?

Just because I'm fairly sure that unless you had fundamental problems with the game, this one will be better.

[elmuerte]

Fallout With Wizards

I'd also prefer a Morrowind 2.0 over a Oblivion 1.5

[Sno]

There's undoubtedly going to be a lot of busted stuff people won't like, especially with expectations flying so awfully high.

Keeping a more critical mindset, I don't really expect to be wowed by the visuals on a technical front. It sounds like they're still trying to cram it all onto a single dvd for the 360 release, and i expect the other versions to be reflective of that.

Those nice screenshots they've been releasing, the character models certainly look much nicer, but there's a lot of blurry textures in those environments. It's like something had to give to get the detail in the places you want it. I mean, and Oblivion fitting on a single DVD was already a minor miracle in its own right, with its some sixty hours of spoken dialogue.

Do I have to be accurate when I throw a fireball at somebody?

Not if you make an area-effect fireball spell!

Anyways, yes, some accuracy is necessary. The combat is all real-time, but you can pause to go into menus to drink potions, select spells, poison your weapons, etc. Some other actions like changing weapons have an animation lag, they won't happen instantly while paused.

There's also no lock-on or anything. (I actually feel TES games could really use a lock-on, it can be awfully easy to stab a friendly NPC in the back if you're fighting the same target. That's a pretty rare incident though, TES games are almost always solo, you almost never have a party.)

I'd like to ask as to what sense it was a disappointment?

Just because I'm fairly sure that unless you had fundamental problems with the game, this one will be better.

I don't rail against Oblivion as much as some people do, i still really liked it, but it does have some problems. I think the biggest thing is just that Cyrodiil as presented isn't a very interesting place, the landscapes and locations aren't nearly as unique and diverse as Vvardenfell was in Morrowind.

That loot and enemy scaling is also truly ridiculous in Oblivion, especially when random bandits all start running around in complete sets of what is supposed to be incredibly precious and rare glass armor.

Skyrim is supposed to be more diverse than Cyrodiil, but the scaling mechanics are apparently more in line with Oblivion and Fallout 3 than Morrowind.

[Orv]

My biggest issue with Oblivion (already partially stated and most people will tell you this as well) is that it's rather dull. Bland. Generic. It's very much Fantasy World #2453. If they fix that, making Skyrim interesting again, improving the Oblivion combat some, and refining certain gameplay mechanics. . .as I've said before, sign me up.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I really wanted to like Oblivion, but I could never penetrate its surface. I'd go to a city and everyone seemed the same. Whenever I visited somewhere in Fallout 3, there were at least characters. If I stuck at it, would it have improved? (I wasn't interested in the main story, either.)

Now I've got a fancy schmancy graphics card, I'm considering giving it another go.

[Sno]

I really wanted to like Oblivion, but I could never penetrate its surface. I'd go to a city and everyone seemed the same. Whenever I visited somewhere in Fallout 3, there were at least characters. If I stuck at it, would it have improved? (I wasn't interested in the main story, either.)

Now I've got a fancy schmancy graphics card, I'm considering giving it another go.

"I hated this game, but if i kept playing it, would i have liked it?" is basically the question you're asking, and i don't really know how to answer it.

I would say that TES games generally try to present entire, realized places. With regards to Oblivion, individual NPC's may not have a lot to say, but most will have a few lines of distinct dialogue. They all reside in detailed environments and have detailed routines, such that the place as a whole is believable. (As opposed to generic NPC's in Fallout 3 or other RPG's, which may not even have unique dialogue or any routines to follow.)

If you want to know what i think is the most enjoyable way to play Oblivion, i'd say start that game, get out of that introductory dungeon, pick a random direction and just go. Don't stick around in one place trying to grind through all the quests there, keep exploring.

The thing i always loved about TES games is that pretty much regardless of where you go, you will find something interesting. They're the kind of games that encourage you to explore and stray from whatever seems to be the intended path. You can kind of build your own narrative out of random experiences you happen upon as you wander.

[elmuerte]

If you want to know what i think is the most enjoyable way to play Oblivion, i'd say start that game, get out of that introductory dungeon, pick a random direction and just go. Don't stick around in one place trying to grind through all the quests there, keep exploring.

Yes, and stay away from the main quest. Because at some point you'll reach the phase in the game that will start spawning random oblivion gates.

That was the point that ruined the game for me. I was happily exploring the world until that. I closed like 30 oblivion gates, and then decided to rush through the main story to get rid of the damn things. After that, I didn't feel like continuing the game anymore.

I played it in the same way as Morrowind and Daggerfall. Simply do whatever I feel like, and sometimes a main quest. But this didn't work great for Oblivion (see above) and it worked terrible for Fallout 3 (because you could skip 50% of the game if you didn't watch out). New Vegas sort of fixed that, because there were now multiple main quest lines.

Also, Oblivion was rather nerfed. Becoming the head of guilds was way too easy. Oblivion was so long ago, I can't recall to what it fixed w.r.t. Morrowind. I believe they did bring back fast travel, right?

[ThunderPeel2001]

Thanks, guys. That's how I wanted to play it, but I could never find anyone to talk to who had something to say, or a quest to give.

[Irishjohn]

Also, Oblivion was rather nerfed. Becoming the head of guilds was way too easy. Oblivion was so long ago, I can't recall to what it fixed w.r.t. Morrowind. I believe they did bring back fast travel, right?

Yup, Oblivion had fast travel. Actually, I haven't played Morrowind, but your post reminded me why I own it on Steam and am waiting to play it.

As for Skyrim, I can't help but be excited. People here are rightfully pointing out a bunch of flaws in Oblivion, but there was a lot to like about it. That's why we're chatting about it, I guess.

Also, dragons.

[Sno]

Thanks, guys. That's how I wanted to play it, but I could never find anyone to talk to who had something to say, or a quest to give.

Oblivion has something like two hundred and thirty quests, so if you're saying that you really can't find any side quests anywhere, i don't know what you're doing wrong.

If you're talking to NPC's, they'll usually bombard you with hints about the location of quest givers in the immediate area. If you're just out exploring in the wilderness, if you happen upon some random shack or small village, there will probably be an associated quest there.

You shouldn't even feel like you need a quest though. Not even counting the randomized oblivion gates, there are way over a hundred dungeons in the game, only a small number of which are even tied into quests.

Or just go for one of the major quest chains, not even the main quest necessarily, but one of the guilds.

Just curious, but how long did you play Oblivion, previously? It's not a game that will just reveal everything to you within five hours, these are games people have played for hundreds of hours without exhausting.

Yup, Oblivion had fast travel. Actually, I haven't played Morrowind, but your post reminded me why I own it on Steam and am waiting to play it.

As for Skyrim, I can't help but be excited. People here are rightfully pointing out a bunch of flaws in Oblivion, but there was a lot to like about it. That's why we're chatting about it, I guess.

Also, dragons.

To be fair, Morrowind certainly had its share of problems too. The combat was heavily dice rolled in a particularly frustrating way, you would simply miss and have no feedback as to why.

Man, and that game had just tons of exploits and bugs and crashes. (Even if you're not interested in the modding scene for the game, there's a few fan patch projects that might be worth looking into if you want to play Morrowind.)

Morrowind is definitely my favorite Elder Scrolls game though.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Sno

[toblix]

From what I remember from my hour or so of Oblivion-playing, it had the Fallout 3 actual open world from the very start. Skyrim looks more Fable-like based on the video. I guess hardcore fans would've picked up on that much earlier, but since I haven't heard any complaining, I guess my impression is wrong, right?