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I found Destruction to be shit. You just end up running away much of the time. With high level Conjuration I don't necessarily even watch as my creations wreak havoc :x I've raised difficulty back to Expert, but I guess I'll have to raise it again!

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Hooh. I only played 4 hours today but I feel like I saw a lot during that time. This game is so much more varied than Oblivion, it seems, and I've only seen a tiny part of the world -- Whiterun and some of the surroundings, Riverwood, Helgen and Ivarstead and the big mountain. Today I ventured into some really awesome looking cave/dungeons and the misty geyser pools near the underground tree of life thing. I love it! But really should tune the graphics a bit.

On the other hand, the game is definitely still very player-centered and trying to spew out most of the lore in text. Others have said it better than I could. Everything that happens is mostly quite disconnected from everything else. I understand why it is -- Bethesda have been perfecting what they already know how to make and make it full of details; they are not inventing something completely new.

But still, I'd love to see an RPG of this scale where the designers took the opposite approach. Instead of seeing everything as branching out from the player and being there for him/her, make everything in the world work and have a reason and then throw the player into it as if he/she was just another NPC. And only then make sure it works for the player. I don't know, could end up like crap, or having a smaller scale, but I'd love to see something like that attempted. I haven't played Dark Souls (countered to Skyrim in the article I linked to) but I suspect that's not quite what I mean.

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Decided to play through the main quest and the civil war quests today since people assured me that it wouldn't break the rest of the quests. Then I went to a city I'd never been to before, and everyone was talking to me as if they knew me already. It seems to be from the civil war chain that's ruined me. I'm going to have to reroll another character to play through those areas.

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1. It's logical that the dunmer, altmer, bosmer et al are collectively known as the elven races. They need that monniker to signify the collective. There is, however, only one 'dwarven' race, the dwemer. So there's no need for that collective name, even if it is correct in-universe.

Maybe i'm just tired, but i'm fairly certain what you're saying doesn't make any sense. I think you're having a misunderstanding about the naming conventions for the series.

2. It's not the in-universe part of the game that subjectively calls dwemer dwarves, it's the interface. 'dwarven armor' and the like. That's just messy, since it arbitrarily mixes dwarven en dwemer. To my recollection this didn't happen in Morrowind, where the word dwarf rarely if ever fell. I could be wrong on this though. It just irked me that dwemer were referred to as dwarfs.

This interface naming convention applies for other things too though, all elven items are named like that. I mean, they're "elven" weapons and armor when the people group on a whole is "Mer". It's repeated with the Orcish items. (TES Orcs are elves, they're the Orsimer.) Dwemer items being labeled as such only occurs in Morrowind, and it makes sense, since that was their home province.

Going on a tangent, I am perpetually disappointed that the whole dwemer theme is never exploited fully. This disappointment was already present in Morrowind, so it's not Skyrim-exclusive. The dwemer ruins in these games are largely just tile-swaps for regular dungeons. They look really cool (steam, valves, pistons, gears, whatnot), and there is a bit more emphasis on levers and extremely light puzzles, but it's still pretty vanilla.

The first time I went into a dwemer ruin I was expecting all the machines I found there to have some purpose, to be able to activate and do cool things. In Skyrim, you can pick up dozens of weird dwemer gizmos, but then the only purpose they serve is to melt into dwemer ingots. How much more interesting would it be if you could craft and construct actual dwemer machinery? Little drones to help you, or explosives or whatever? World of Warcraft has a whole engineering class which is the best. It would perfectly fit into Elder Scrolls. Well, maybe next time.

This sounds like a case of "always wanting more", honestly.

This game deals with the dwarves a lot, and so did Morrowind. I don't think you can go much further into any of that without ruining the sense of mystery and ambiguity that is supposed to define the history of that race in the context of these games.

As for an engineering skill, presenting a situation in which people are easily reproducing Dwemer technology, i think it would be very out of character for the series. It's lost technology, lost science, lost industry. It is, exactly as you say, so you have cool steampunk dungeons to explore that don't clash with the swords and sorcery setting.

(Except, there won't BE a next time for the dwemer since maybe only Blackmarsh has some dwemer ruins still in it!)

(So, what do we expect for the next game, Summerset? Elsweyr? Valenwood? I'm thinking Valenwood.)

I think Valenwood would be cool, it would make sense with the way the fiction is leaning in Skyrim, and some of the things that have been described about Valenwood would make for a very cool setting.

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Aren't Dwemer just elves anyway? I don't think they're even short like Tolkein dwarves...

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Aren't Dwemer just elves anyway? I don't think they're even short like Tolkein dwarves...

No, they're elves. Yeah. Not even short.

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Oh, so in TES you only really have the beast races, different human races and different elven races?

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Yeeeep. There's also the dremora, but that gets into weird metaphysical shit that is kind of convoluted by this point/last I looked into it. Easier just to keep them as demons.

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OK, I am probably a little confused now. I thought the Dwemer were a different race thatn elves. The game never calls them elves, they're 'dwarven' for crying out loud. Why make the distinction in that case?

I do agree with your reasoning why engineering would be out of place, Sno, by the way. It's sound reasoning.

Races I'd like to see have a part in Elder Scrolls are some point are Akaviri and Sloads. Hehe.

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OK, I am probably a little confused now. I thought the Dwemer were a different race thatn elves. The game never calls them elves, they're 'dwarven' for crying out loud. Why make the distinction in that case?

I'm not hugely informed on the TES lore, but as I understand it people are generally split into "men and mer" (the beast races don't even seem to count, most of the time, in scholarly books). Literally anything with a "mer" at the end is essentially a kind of elf, including orcs (orsimer, as Sno mentioned) and dwarves (dwemer, obviously). It's just that, as in real life, official terminology is not used at all times.

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All right, it makes sense if 'elves' is not the same thing as 'mer'. Gotcha!

Well that's a purely semantic distinction. That's basically the point of what we've been saying. There are men, mer, beast races and what D&D might call "celestial" - various otherworldly shit. Orcs aren't really ever referred to as elves, and nor are dwarves, but in terms of all actual species classification, they are. Mer are elves. Orcs even have pointy ears, if you want to judge things that way.

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But if mer are elves, why make the distinction between the mer races as elves, dwarves and 'other'? It makes it seem sloppy, unless mer is a classification above that. In that case, mer are mer, and can be divided below that as dwarves, elves, etc. It's only way for this to make any sense.

It might be that dwemer and orcs started out as an elven race, but evolved into something else along the way that made it logical to classify them no longer as an elven race. But it's such a weird thing for a race to be both elven and dwarven, they're not the same and Bethesda apparently thinks so too, or they wouldn't have made the distinction.

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Man. No offence to any Elder Scrolls fans, but seeing this list really reminds me that I hate their universe. It just seems so bland. Maybe you have to play it for a long time before it becomes more compelling, but I remember reading the booklet that came with Oblivion, with all the history of the world in it, and it was SO dull and uninteresting that I couldn't take any of it in.

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Yeeeep. There's also the dremora, but that gets into weird metaphysical shit that is kind of convoluted by this point/last I looked into it. Easier just to keep them as demons.

The dremora might be distantly related to the Mer races, but it's best not to think about it.

The metaphysical stuff in TES gets real, real weird.

But if mer are elves, why make the distinction between the mer races as elves, dwarves and 'other'? It makes it seem sloppy, unless mer is a classification above that. In that case, mer are mer, and can be divided below that as dwarves, elves, etc. It's only way for this to make any sense.

It might be that dwemer and orcs started out as an elven race, but evolved into something else along the way that made it logical to classify them no longer as an elven race. But it's such a weird thing for a race to be both elven and dwarven, they're not the same and Bethesda apparently thinks so too, or they wouldn't have made the distinction.

You're trying too hard to have it all be neat and tidy, the only real point of the double names is so that they can establish their unique mythology while still calling on familiar, recognizable fantasy-tropes.

In universe, the dwemer are called dwarves because of a misconception that they were a race of little people. People thought the dwemer were literal dwarves. Which is to say, not fantasy dwarves, fantasy dwarves do not exist in TES.

They're extinct and greatly misunderstood by living peoples.

As for orcs being known as orcs instead of "elves", i believe there's also an in-universe justification for that too, though i don't recall the specifics.

Check it out though - Bosmer, Falmer, Chimer, Dunmer, Altmer, Dwemer, Orsimer. There's your consistent naming scheme. The only elves that don't follow suit are the extinct Ayleids of Cyrodiil. (Which were, i believe, supposed to be the earliest settlers of Tamriel.)

Man. No offence to any Elder Scrolls fans, but seeing this list really reminds me that I hate their universe. It just seems so bland. Maybe you have to play it for a long time before it becomes more compelling, but I remember reading the booklet that came with Oblivion, with all the history of the world in it, and it was SO dull and uninteresting that I couldn't take any of it in.

I remember reading that the series was borne out of a D&D game some of the original Bethesda leads used to hold, so that's kind of where it's coming from.

It's definitely pretty standard high fantasy, but there's a lot of small touches and flourishes that make it unique and more believable than a lot of other similar settings. As already noted, it has a unique approach to mythology and history, by purposefully presenting you with numerous conflicting accounts and stories, and encouraging you to draw your own conclusions.

I think the series also generally portrays a lot of believable politics and strife between different groups.

But definitely a lot of very traditional fantasy tropes are in play. The provinces of man, like Cyrodiil and Skyrim, especially lean towards more traditional european fantasy. Things can get really strange and out there in some of the other provinces though, which as of so far we've only seen one of. (Morrowind.) From there, if you take time to read about some of the more metaphysical elements of the lore, things only become increasingly stranger and more out there.

So on a surface level it's kind of familiar, but thought through and believable, and has kind of hidden depths.

Edited by Sno

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But if mer are elves, why make the distinction between the mer races as elves, dwarves and 'other'? It makes it seem sloppy, unless mer is a classification above that. In that case, mer are mer, and can be divided below that as dwarves, elves, etc. It's only way for this to make any sense.

It might be that dwemer and orcs started out as an elven race, but evolved into something else along the way that made it logical to classify them no longer as an elven race. But it's such a weird thing for a race to be both elven and dwarven, they're not the same and Bethesda apparently thinks so too, or they wouldn't have made the distinction.

My honest first thought is when Bethesda was creating an RPG for the first time they went to the fantasy well with orcs, dwarves and elves and then tried to differentiate themselves from there. Maybe it's an attempt to make the world more realistic and history more fallible, but I suspect it's as simple as starting generic and gradually going specific.

Regarding realism and an uneducated populace and such, though, if that really is the idea it does make some sense. Humans are apes, yet almost no one actually refers to them as such unless they're specifically being scholarly and that's in a supposedly educated and scientific society. That's even before you consider that I constantly hear the idea that we're "descended from monkeys" and indeed that chimpanzees, gorillas, etc. are monkeys. That's beyond just daily classification laziness, it's directly incorrect. I don't see why the supposedly mostly peasant population of Tamriel would be so much more logical and accurate with the way they name and classify races.

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Man, sometimes this game just keeps dragging you into more and more shit. I was exporing new places and clearing a dungeon when I realized I wasn't probably well-supplied enough to make it to the end and also badly needed to sell some of the loot I was carrying. So I planned to resupply and return; went to a yet unexplored but nearby Rorikstead, where I got drunk

in a contest with a stranger, and woke up in a temple in Markath. Planning to look around a bit and then head back towards Rorikstead to find the guy who got me drunk, I exited the temple and ended up in a market, where I witnessed a murder. Immediately I was dragged into solving the mystery and a local conflict that has me running all around town. I like when stuff like this happens -- gives a sense of urgency to things, although I hope this doesn't drag me into yet another city.

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I remember reading that the series was borne out of a D&D game some of the original Bethesda leads used to hold, so that's kind of where it's coming from.

It's definitely pretty standard high fantasy, but there's a lot of small touches and flourishes that make it unique and more believable than a lot of other similar settings. As already noted, it has a unique approach to mythology and history, by purposefully presenting you with numerous conflicting accounts and stories, and encouraging you to draw your own conclusions.

I think the series also generally portrays a lot of believable politics and strife between different groups.

But definitely a lot of very traditional fantasy tropes are in play. The provinces of man, like Cyrodiil and Skyrim, especially lean towards more traditional european fantasy. Things can get really strange and out there in some of the other provinces though, which as of so far we've only seen one of. (Morrowind.) From there, if you take time to read about some of the more metaphysical elements of the lore, things only become increasingly stranger and more out there.

So on a surface level it's kind of familiar, but thought through and believable, and has kind of hidden depths.

That's good to know, thanks for explaining all that :tup: My overriding feeling when reading the history booklet that came with Oblivion was boredom. I seem to recall it was the worst type of fantasy, but maybe it was designed to be appreciated by those already completely familiar with the games' lore. I've never gotten past walking around the first big city I came to in Oblivion, so am completely ignorant of any and all history of the series in general. (I liked Fallout 3, though.)

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It's really unfortunate, because Cyrodil (the place Oblivion is set in) is pretty terrible generic fantasy. Almost everywhere else in Tamriel (the main TES continent) is crazy and bizarre.

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There's nothing about Morrowind that isn't extremely awesome and non-traditionally insane. I think the main attractions in the Elder Scrolls world are a very grandly developed sense of culture that persists in the world in every way, from architecture to concurrent views on history and lots of ways to say the same thing (in Morrowind the main body of gods was called the Tribunal, the Temple and ALMSIVI, just as in real life you have gods with many names).

The other thing that gives it unique flavour is its host of deadric princes. Sure, there are more standard 'invisible' gods in Elder Scrolls (the aedra such as Akatosh, Dibella, Kynareth), but the deadric princes are where the real fun lies. They often manifest in the world, they meddle in human affairs directly and every game has you finding their legendary artifacts.

The final thing that's so great is that there are very believable political systems in place, vying factions and scheming politicians. At the same time, it's never presented in black and white, there are no good or bad guys, just gradients. Everyone's motivations are understandable and often reasonable. There are few cackling villains in this world, only tragic and misunderstood heroes.

I'd like to lay the whole dwemer-naming-convention thing to rest, btw. I understand the situation now. Thanks for explaining.

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Interesting... You mean there's supernatural stuff in the world? As Orv said, I found the world of Oblivion (what little I saw of it) to be not much more than British people in armour.

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Hah! Like Oblivion had nearly the kind of coordination required for consistently British accents.

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Interesting... You mean there's supernatural stuff in the world? As Orv said, I found the world of Oblivion (what little I saw of it) to be not much more than British people in armour.

TP, have you not played TES at all? (Beyond a small snippet of Oblivion, that is.) Because there is absolutely all kinds of weird and fantastical stuff, the Daedric Princes being incredibly interesting but some of the least of it.

Oblivion is, to say the least, not at all indicative of Morrowind, Skyrim or even Daggerfall. It's not necessarily a bad game, and I've put plenty of hours into it, but it is bland.

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I think the main attractions in the Elder Scrolls world are a very grandly developed sense of culture that persists in the world in every way, from architecture to concurrent views on history and lots of ways to say the same thing (in Morrowind the main body of gods was called the Tribunal, the Temple and ALMSIVI, just as in real life you have gods with many names).

In Skyrim, I really like how they've developed the Imperial Cult and the conflict between the Stormcloaks and the Empire. With the Stormcloaks basically fighting the Empire for the right to worship the man who founded that Empire. It's a weird conflict that makes for a lot of great context.

All the stuff with the Thalmor is really fun too, they're such smug assholes, it's great. The Empire is crumbling and stuck in a bitter cold war with what are, there's no way around it, totally nazis.

Interesting... You mean there's supernatural stuff in the world? As Orv said, I found the world of Oblivion (what little I saw of it) to be not much more than British people in armour.

Ok, so you really, really didn't see much of the game then.

TP, have you not played TES at all? (Beyond a small snippet of Oblivion, that is.) Because there is absolutely all kinds of weird and fantastical stuff, the Daedric Princes being incredibly interesting but some of the least of it.

Yeeeaaaaah. I mean, and magic is even one of the core tenets of the gameplay, there's even a skill dedicated to conjuring otherworldly creatures to fight for you.

Oblivion is, to say the least, not at all indicative of Morrowind, Skyrim or even Daggerfall. It's not necessarily a bad game, and I've put plenty of hours into it, but it is bland.

I'd agree that Oblivion had kind of a pervasive blandness about it. It was a lot of small little things that added up to it being probably the least interesting setting Bethesda has created for one of these games. Beyond just the aesthetics, there's a lot to be said about how uninteresting the dungeons were and how much the overworld was just crying out for more diversity in its landscape, neither of which i would say Skyrim suffers from. Skyrim also brought back a lot of Morrowind's Roman Empire-inspired flourishes for the Imperials, something that seemed completely MIA in Oblivion.

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