Batman: Arkham City

[Roderick]

Really? I thought the Freeze design was a most original and impressive take on him.

 

When I played the game a few years ago, I didn't for a second notice any of the misogyny that others found repellent. I'm not saying it's not there, I just wasn't looking at it from that angle.

[Ben X]

Can someone explain this to me?  I don't mean just you miffy, this is a sentiment I'm hearing from multiple people about City and I kinda don't get it.  What exactly is so bad about it?

 

I brought it up here, as a similar issue was mentioned in a Metal Gear thread: https://www.idlethumbs.net/forums/topic/7428-feminism/page-105#entry283770

[SecretAsianMan]

I brought it up here, as a similar issue was mentioned in a Metal Gear thread: https://www.idlethumbs.net/forums/topic/7428-feminism/page-105#entry283770

 

I did see that, but is it just people calling Catwoman a bitch?  Because if that's all, frankly I'm still not getting it.  I'm not really hearing it that often and in my mind, these people are thieves and killers.  They're not supposed to be liked.  If one of the "good" people called her a bitch that would be a different thing.  I didn't read the Metal Gear thread so sorry if I'm covering a similar idea.

[JonCole]

What I feel is that narrative justification doesn't necessarily excuse misogyny contained in a work of art. Regardless of who is saying those things in the narrative, the creators of the game created a situation in which these people exist so is inherently endorsing them by means of creation.

 

The more I research the feminist cause, the more I realize that many elements of misogyny are so ingrained in culture that it's hard to properly contextualize the wrongdoing. In the case of words like the ones you mention, they're gender-specific - they're words being used directly to address a female, that is. There is no equivalent gender-specific jabs thrown in Batman's direction as a male, so there's an inherent imbalance in how women and men are being treated, despite there being a reason for the jabs to be thrown in the first place. In other words, there may be justification for why thieves and killers would say such things, but by having them say those specific things to that specific character there is a gender-specific imbalance.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think this is incredibly strong ground to stand on. In its best case, I think it's more of an indicator than evidence of harmful intent. I wouldn't indict a game solely on this, but there's something inherent to the misogyny of that situation that can contribute to greater picture. I personally feel that since these gender imbalances are more inherent than obvious, it imparts a feeling of uneasiness rather than blatant outrage. It feels wrong to me to hear those words being lobbed at a female character in this game, but until I really logic it out it's hard to express why the situation is not right.

[SecretAsianMan]

I do hear them call Batman a son of a bitch, which is as gender specific as bitch, although I suppose son of a bitch is still misogynistic since you're calling the mother a bitch.

 

I can't completely buy into the idea that just by creating a world with certain elements you are inherently endorsing those elements.  The game has people being beaten, shot, stabbed, fed to sharks, frozen, poisoned, etc.  Are those things being endorsed by their existence in the game?  Gamers have long argued that a violent game doesn't make a person violent, is it really so different with misogyny?  Why are we comfortable with smashing a man's head in but not hearing a woman called bitch?

 

Mind you I am NOT defending misogyny.  I'm being intentionally argumentative to provoke a (hopefully thoughtful and civil) discussion.

[JonCole]

Maybe endorsing isn't the right word, but displaying something before people does normalize the existence of that thing culturally. I wouldn't argue that violence in games promotes violence, but I do think that having violence be depicted interactively on screen makes people a lot more familiar with violence and expectant that violence exists in the real world and can serve a similar function as depicted in the medium. Gender norms with children strike me as analogous - before you introduce that boys like blue things and girls like pink things, there is no norm for what colors are attributed to what gender in a child's mind. Even if a parent isn't shoving it down a child's throat by buying them only blue or only pink things, they'll see in stores that those colors are attributed to those genders through products. So, whether or not the attribution is blatant, it happens just due to the fabric of our society.

 

I feel similarly about misogyny in general. I would never say that Batman: Arkham City makes people be misogynists, but by creating a world where misogyny exists it normalizes the existence of misogyny and in my opinion, endorses it by means of that normalization.

 

Finally, I think your intentional argumentativeness is resulting in some slippery slope business. I'm not comfortable smashing a man's head in personally. On the other hand, I also think that in general we (gamers) are fine with both smashing a man's head in and hearing a woman called a bitch. I do think that we (Thumbs, at the very least) have a responsibility to be more discerning and question whether it's okay that either of these standards is generally acceptable when they're not really adding anything except visceral entertainment value. Because really, is Arkham City enhanced by thieves calling Catwoman a bitch instead of something gender-neutral?

[Zeusthecat]

I do hear them call Batman a son of a bitch, which is as gender specific as bitch, although I suppose son of a bitch is still misogynistic since you're calling the mother a bitch.

 

I can't completely buy into the idea that just by creating a world with certain elements you are inherently endorsing those elements.  The game has people being beaten, shot, stabbed, fed to sharks, frozen, poisoned, etc.  Are those things being endorsed by their existence in the game?  Gamers have long argued that a violent game doesn't make a person violent, is it really so different with misogyny?  Why are we comfortable with smashing a man's head in but not hearing a woman called bitch?

 

Mind you I am NOT defending misogyny.  I'm being intentionally argumentative to provoke a (hopefully thoughtful and civil) discussion.

 

For what it's worth, I also kind of struggle to understand why some of the enemy barks towards catwoman are considered so problematic. Frankly, that is the kind of language I would expect horrible bad guys in a prison city to use towards a female (I think it is safe to assume these guys probably have sexist tendencies) and it would just sound a little off if they only went with gender neutral profanity. If the argument is simply that there is an imbalance in gender specific profanity towards batman and catwoman then I can kind of see the point. But even then, it seems reasonable to assume that the bad guys would be more inclined to think they could intimidate catwoman, who they might unfairly assume is weaker.

 

But I really don't have a strong opinion on this, just sharing my thoughts. JonCole, you make some pretty good points in your post above but I'm still not entirely convinced that there is anything inherently wrong with the bad guys saying some of the sexist things they say. I think it is important for games to try to promote gender equality but at the same time, if you are aiming to portray certain characters as "bad guys" it kind of makes sense that they would do and say things that we recognize as bad.

[SecretAsianMan]

Before I respond any further, should this discussion be moved to the Feminism thread?  I'd hate to fill another game topic with a discussion that's not about the game itself, especially when a thread for the subject already exists.

[JonCole]

I don't feel like I have much to add on this, but if you have any more questions I'd be happy to move over to the Feminism thread.

[SecretAsianMan]

I've moved it over.  I'll try to keep any future discussion of this out of here and confined to that thread.

[SecretAsianMan]

I "beat" the game last night.  I even repeated what Sean did and tried to walk out as Catwoman.  Man, that ending was kinda dark.  What really bugged me about that though was when Catwoman actually gets to Batman, he basically pulls himself out of the rubble.  She did nothing to actually save him.  If she actually left, the following events would have basically turned out the same.  I was expecting to fight a bunch of henchmen or guards, not get a pointless cutscene.  Also I really hate saying this after the big discussion about it, but Catwoman really is kind of a bitch.  She promised Ivy she would get her flower, then she fucking steps on it.

 

I'm not done with the game by any means since I still have some Catwoman stuff to do and Harley's side story.  I plan on actually trying to get all the Riddler trophies since they're actually neat little puzzles instead of just collectables sitting on the ground for no reason.  I also have a bunch of side missions to complete.  Normally I wouldn't bother with any of that stuff, but I'm liking the game so much that I actually want to do it this time.  I probably won't do the challenge maps or a new game plus though.

 

The cameras and controls gave me some trouble in a couple places and I wish the combat gave you more opportunity to actually use the gadgets instead of being mostly an endless string of counters.  Still, overall I loved the game and am now super excited for Arkham Knight.

[Ben X]

Also I really hate saying this after the big discussion about it, but Catwoman really is kind of a bitch.  She promised Ivy she would get her flower, then she fucking steps on it.

 

Maybe she stepped on all the thugs' favourite things previous to the events of the game and that's why they all call her bitch.

[Architecture]

Before I respond any further, should this discussion be moved to the Feminism thread?  I'd hate to fill another game topic with a discussion that's not about the game itself, especially when a thread for the subject already exists.

I think it's relevant to the game discussion, personally. It's a willful decision made by the developers and--for me, at least--mars what is otherwise a near-flawless game. As I said in the Ground Zeroes thread:

 

It's funny because I almost mentioned how much it reminded me of Arkham City. Wonderful game, but Catwoman being called a bitch incessantly made me sick to my stomach. It's just unnecessary, regardless of how "authentic" its use might appear.

I don't care how true-to-life the usage is, it's vulgar. It reinforces negative gender roles and serves to indoctrinate another generation of kids into believing it's an acceptable term to sling around.

[JonCole]

I don't care how true-to-life the usage is, it's vulgar. It reinforces negative gender roles and serves to indoctrinate another generation of kids into believing it's an acceptable term to sling around.

 

That's pretty much the conclusion we collectively arrived at in the Feminism thread, although with slightly more nuance.

[SecretAsianMan]

I think it's relevant to the game discussion, personally. It's a willful decision made by the developers and--for me, at least--mars what is otherwise a near-flawless game. As I said in the Ground Zeroes thread:

 

 

I don't care how true-to-life the usage is, it's vulgar. It reinforces negative gender roles and serves to indoctrinate another generation of kids into believing it's an acceptable term to sling around.

 

I think it is relevant to the game, but I knew the topic as a whole would extend beyond the scope of a single game and didn't want to limit it to a thread that people who aren't interested in Arkham City wouldn't read.  I didn't read any of the stuff in the Ground Zeroes thread because I have no interest at all in that series, so I had no idea the discussion was even happening.

 

I'll say one more thing about it that is relevant to the game.  I agree that it's unfortunate this whole situation had to occur in the first place and probably would have been better without any of it.  My problem is actually the perception I was given before going into the game.  I had the impression before I started that it was a mechanically good game filled with nothing but crude misogynistic language and behavior.  Having now played it, I found those instances to be fairly few in number.  They certainly exist, but it's not like the whole game is nothing but that.  It seemed like a lot of dislike aimed at a very small portion of the game.  It's still an important topic worth discussing though, hence my desire to move it out of this thread.

[Ben X]

I tried to funnel it over to the Feminism thread because there were at least two games with the same issue and I thought it made more sense than having the same discussion on two different threads.

[SecretAsianMan]

To wrap up my experience with the game, I'm now "done" done.  I got all the Riddler trophies for both Batman and Catwoman, completed every side quest, did a few of the challenge maps with Robin and Nightwing, and played the Harley DLC.  While I do like Batman, I enjoyed getting a chance to play as other members of the Bat family.  I'm hoping that Arkham Knight will have more of that but I doubt it.  I do kind of wish that this wasn't a continuity with Oracle so that Batgirl could have been in it too, but it's probably one of the best justifications for the voice in the ear thing.

[Architecture]

Stephanie Brown says hello.

[cyrix]

To wrap up my experience with the game, I'm now "done" done.  I got all the Riddler trophies for both Batman and Catwoman, completed every side quest, did a few of the challenge maps with Robin and Nightwing, and played the Harley DLC.  While I do like Batman, I enjoyed getting a chance to play as other members of the Bat family.  I'm hoping that Arkham Knight will have more of that but I doubt it.  I do kind of wish that this wasn't a continuity with Oracle so that Batgirl could have been in it too, but it's probably one of the best justifications for the voice in the ear thing.

 

There were a few more Batgirls than Barbara Gordon.

 

Stephanie Brown says hello.

 

While Cassandra Cain stands silently next to her.

also Kathy Kane Batwoman would make a pretty striking player character visually.

 

[singing_pigs]

While I do like Batman, I enjoyed getting a chance to play as other members of the Bat family.

 

I love playing the predator challenge maps as Nightwing, cause the thugs spend the whole time wondering who the hell Nightwing is.

[SecretAsianMan]

I am aware there have been other Batgirls besides Barbara.  But she is without a doubt the most well known one and probably the most likely to actually appear in a video game.  Yes, the Arkham games like to include some of the more obscure characters too (not that the other Batgirls are that obscure), but they tend to be more of side features or easter eggs.  I don't think we'll be seeing a Stephanie or Cassandra Batgirl anytime soon in a game.

[Merus]

Yeah, but Barbara Gordon is also Oracle. If you want a good Batgirl you have a range to choose from, but there's only one Oracle.

[SecretAsianMan]

I think having Oracle makes sense in the game and, like I previously stated, is one of the better justifications for having a disembodied voice in your head.  I'm just lamenting that this means having Batgirl in the game is unlikely for the reasons I've already said.

[Merus]

I don't think that whoever's making the Arkham games will want to put only the best-known version of each character in their game. This is, after all, a series that has revelled in deep cuts.

 

I think, while Barbara is the best-known Batgirl, in part it's because her once being Batgirl is part of Oracle's origin story. So Barbara tends to get used so that writers have the option to do the Killing Joke.

[SecretAsianMan]

I think for the main, playable characters they'll stick with the most well known ones.  I imagine that a significant number of players will only be really familiar with the most famous versions of the characters.  Having different versions appear as cameos or easter eggs are fine because they're little treats for those in the know.  I just have my doubts that they'll include Batgirl at all.  I would love to be wrong though.