Advice for teenagers interested in the game industry.

[syntheticgerbil]

I can't really help with sound guys, but it always seems like the people who do sound or music aren't hired by the studio but contracted out. Sounds sort of unstable.

The place I work at has used contract workers for sound and music before, but usually someone here just goes through a library of purchased sound effects and music and puts them to crappy games (the president mostly does this actually). For a while my old art director was good at creating sounds and music by himself with a keyboard, but he left.

[twmac]

My mate worked a pretty big title that you would all know (can't say what) by merit that we were doing some other work on it and the client asked if we could help out with the sound.

An email got sent around and my mate replied saying he knew how to work the programs and bam he was credited as a sound engineer.

So yeah, sound is a toughy. It appears that mine and synthetic's experience is that you learn to multi-task and then make your name as a sound guy slowly but surely (whether that is by becoming a musician or developer I am not quite sure).

Sadly, not everyone is Richard Jacques.

[Forbin]

Jesus, Forbin, you have the most bleak outlook. Are you really saying that a job developing software will always suck?

Not all places suck, but there's a definite trend that way. Just take what people any position say with a grain of salt when they claim they have it the worst. I know people in games wanting to work on web apps, people in web apps wanting to work on low level systems and people on low level systems wanting to work in games. The important thing is that you find something that you want to do every day, and then the extra bullshit that follows in the development world will be a little more tolerable. Keep in mind that your job isn't your hobby, and you can continue to play games even if you're doing something unrelated.

But whatever you do, stay clear of internal IT for a company that doesn't deal with technology. Every quarter you'll be ducking budget cuts, and nobody senior to you will know anything about computers.

[toblix]

Sounds like you're talking only about people in huge GlobalCorps though. I guess that may be most computer jobs.

[Patters]

Has anyone done any localisation testing, I've found an interesting job which could be interesting for a summer job.

[twmac]

Localisation can be pretty sweet actually. No where near as stressful as Functionality.

You also tend to test better games than most functionality I've seen.

[SiN]

Just dropping in to counter Forbin's bleakness.

His story is totally believable, but it's something I've never experienced. Here's how to avoid hating your existence while also being a computer scientist:

* Get a University degree. College recruiters will tell you that computer science is taught more effectively in college, and that 4 years in school is a waste of your time/money. This is bullshit. Learning the underlying theory of computer science (and mathematics) is extremely important to actually solving interesting problems in computer science.

A college diploma will get you a working understanding of a handful of programming languages and some algorithms. This will only get you so far. A university degree will get you knowledge of the underlying theories of programming languages, computers, and algorithms. This will allow you to solve problems that haven't been solved before.

* Work for a software developer. I've worked at an accounting firm, a hardware company, and a couple of software developers. By far, the latter respects computer scientists the most. Obviously, it's their business. GlobalMegaCorp, on the other hand, won't get why you need more time & resources to get something done, which leads to crunch. Further, the company culture just doesn't gel with programmer habits (long meetings, formal attire, rigid work hours, etc)

I currently work at a well-sized software developer. For an opening position, I get paid quite well. I get into work whenever (normally around 9ish, but my buddies get in at 11). I wear a t-shirt and jeans to work. I have 1 or 2 meetings a week, one of which involves shooting the shit with my boss for an hour. I never work extra hours, and I've never worked overtime. Once or twice I've snuck into the office on a Saturday, but only for an hour or two. And that's when I've seriously screwed shit up.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that great jobs do exist in software, you just need to study hard for it (there are no shortcuts), and work for an employer who respects the job of software developers.

Cheers,

Mo

[Forbin]

Don't get me wrong, there are good jobs out there, but I was stepping in to mainly counter the line of thinking that the games industry is unique in it's crunch and burn cycle. I think it's important for people to know that the problem is common for the entire profession and that if you're truly interested in programming you need to be prepared for it's ups and downs.

There are good companies in all fields, I just wanted to say the bad ones aren't unique to game development.

Jeff Green and Shawn Elliott used to touch on this in the GFW podcast. Games journalists are fond of talking about how shitty and high pressure their job is (especially during conventions), but for most of them it's their first real job. People who are new to work seem to think it's their own unique hell.

Sure the games industry has it's problems like EA Wife, and Infinity Ward. But remember the games industry only has Bobby Kotick, the rest of the world has people like Dick Cheney and Steve Jobs.

[Snooglebum]

I know very little about working in sound for games, but I am acquainted with a couple of sound engineers in the industry.

Sound is often ignored and neglected, particularly when it comes to budgeting and conference programmes (GDC being the rare exception), yet it really makes a massive difference to a game. Sound work needs all the advocates it can get.

From what I've heard, working on sound for games is a fairly interesting job if you like messing around with that sort of thing. However, they're not common jobs, and you'll be looking to big developers before you even get to ones that have their own studios. Smaller developers will outsource production or just buy effects.

Well, I cam do both sound design and soundtracks, so hopefully I have a better chance at getting work. I doubt that'll be the way I'll make my living, but it'd hopefully provide a bit of extra cash on the side. Plus, it's fun.

[SiN]

Don't get me wrong, there are good jobs out there, but I was stepping in to mainly counter the line of thinking that the games industry is unique in it's crunch and burn cycle. I think it's important for people to know that the problem is common for the entire profession and that if you're truly interested in programming you need to be prepared for it's ups and downs.

Agreed, although when there's more "down" than "up" it's time to start looking for a new job. I stepped in to counter the idea that "software business = games business = perpetual crunch". I think crunch stories people hear about the games industry are not quite as common in the software industry.

Cheers,

Mo

PS: awesome Aldrin quote in your sig. 30 rock ftw

[elmuerte]

I haven't heard any crunch stories in the software development field. Sure there are cases of long hours. But not long weeks or even months.

[Forbin]

I haven't heard any crunch stories in the software development field. Sure there are cases of long hours. But not long weeks or even months.

I did 4 weeks of without a day off, then was transfered to another project trying to meet a deadline. I managed to get a couple weekends off, though ended up still working about 10-12 hours a day. Only to be transfered to another project that was trying to meet a deadline. It was shitty, but on the other hand, everyone that wasn't being transfered to a project in crunch was being laid off. That cycle ended up lasting about 8 months.

That's not super typical, but what is typical (especially in the financial industry) is a crunch around every 4 months somewhat in sync with the quarterly cycles. The idea being that a lot of companies don't know their IT budget over a longer period than a quarter.

[elmuerte]

(especially in the financial industry)

Chances are high you'll work for an asshole when working in a industry which is mostly run by assholes.

[SiN]

Crunch definitely happens in software, but far less often. Two main reasons I think it isn't a widespread problem like it is in games:

1. Software devs aren't living paycheque to paycheque. In games, you're only as good as your last game. Money is always tight. Games always need to ship. In software, because most studios sell their products to major corporations, there's a lot more money paid over a longer period of time.

2. Exploiting enthusiasm. This is the big one. Nobody is ridiculously enthusiastic about writing software. Nothing like games. So I think a lot of young people get exploited by game dev companies to work long, often unsustainable, hours for "the good of the game", which is pretty bullshit.

Also, note Forbin's example was in the finance industry. Again, not to say it doesn't happen in software, but it doesn't happen as often, and it isn't as perpetual.

Cheers,

Mo

[Forbin]

I'm not sure what the actual breakdown in numbers is like, but you guys talk about software development as if it's the dominant industry, and in reality I think the majority of work is not in creating a product. It's not just finance most developers seem to be working either for internal IT at banks, government, telcos, oil companies and other globalcorps or at contracting companies that build applications for said globalcorps.

It may be different in certain regions, and my experience may tend to trend towards large corporations as I've worked out of Toronto and New York, but honestly it seems to be the most typical world wide other than a few hubs like the Bay area, Austin or Vancouver.

There are a few companies making money off software licenses, but if anything the industry is trending further and further away from that every year. Even middle market and small market companies are buying services like SalesForce over desktop native applications. Most libraries are either open source or owned by big companies like Microsoft, IBM and Oracle.

I keep trying to steer away from making this a downer thread, but when it comes down to it software engineers are basically car mechanics of the future. We've got a skill that is essential for day to day business, most people don't understand it and are skeptical of, and a little knowledge is worse than none at all. It's widely mismanaged all across the board.

I just wanted to say that the games industry is not unique in it's problems, and my constructive advice to anybody thinking of software in general is to make sure you're prepared for those challenges everywhere. Try to find a job at a company that treats you well, but understand you're not likely work any place more than 5 years in a row and you may move on from your dream job and have to take some grunt work to pay the bills.

Also, become a contractor because management will think twice about asking you to work extra hours when they have to justify the billable hours.

[dium]

Well shit. I'm halfway towards a degree in computer science, and how I'm petrified.

[Snooglebum]

I can't really help with sound guys, but it always seems like the people who do sound or music aren't hired by the studio but contracted out. Sounds sort of unstable.

The place I work at has used contract workers for sound and music before, but usually someone here just goes through a library of purchased sound effects and music and puts them to crappy games (the president mostly does this actually). For a while my old art director was good at creating sounds and music by himself with a keyboard, but he left.

Well, hopefully it will help that I have a pretty strong resume, including part of a soundtrack for an actual video game project that fell through, and about 90 songs, 30 of which aren't even on the interwebs yet.

[Inphidel]

For music, I do know indie projects often find music for their games or even movies etc from a site like Jamendo.

Write songs you think would be good in a video game, sign-up sign the contracts and people might license it from you through them.

its a lazy way to hope someone finds you however. but if your into writing songs and don't know where to start. give it a whirl.

[syntheticgerbil]

If anything, I would say in general, video games usually have abysmal creativity in the sound and music field. Even games that want to be serious and have some kind of big Hollywood score usually come out incredibly unmemorable. I imagine it's all more troubling for small studios in need of someone good.

Sure video game sounds and music tends to be technically proficient on the AAA titles, but I wish there was just something memorable or original to cling on to as some of the old NES/SNES tunes or the stuff Peter McConnell and Michael Land did at LucasArts.

I haven't heard as interesting a soundtrack as Beyond Good and Evil since that game. That's disappointing.

I would say Snooglebum, it wouldn't hurt to ask around if you live locally around any video game company. They might need your expertise and not even know it.

[elmuerte]

I agree that music in games has become much less interesting in the last 5 years or so. But once in a while there are games with really good original music, like Mass Effect or Machinarium, and sometimes games with very good use of licensed music, like Fallout 3.

[Snooglebum]

If anything, I would say in general, video games usually have abysmal creativity in the sound and music field. Even games that want to be serious and have some kind of big Hollywood score usually come out incredibly unmemorable. I imagine it's all more troubling for small studios in need of someone good.

Sure video game sounds and music tends to be technically proficient on the AAA titles, but I wish there was just something memorable or original to cling on to as some of the old NES/SNES tunes or the stuff Peter McConnell and Michael Land did at LucasArts.

I haven't heard as interesting a soundtrack as Beyond Good and Evil since that game. That's disappointing.

I would say Snooglebum, it wouldn't hurt to ask around if you live locally around any video game company. They might need your expertise and not even know it.

Well, as far as population, I live in a fairly busy area. In terms of things I'm interested in, like video games and tabletop roleplaying games, I'm in the middle of goddamn nowhere. Yes, I'm a bit bitter about that.

You do have a point about the originality of video game soundtracks. All the interesting soundtracks I can remember are from things like American McGee's Alice, and Deus Ex, which both had excellent soundtracks. Deadly Premonition sort of counts, just because the soundtrack is so quirky.

Yeah, as far as I remember, no game in the last 5 years has had a soundtrack that stood out, which as a music nerd, is really depressing. Although Overgrowth sounds like it has a good one.

[Lu]

I don't agree with the notion that game music has become either less interesting or that it used to be better in the past. At all. I'd like to hear why you think that, elmuerte, as I think that quality in games has increased across all disciplines.

Snooglebum, when you say that in recent years, you can't remember a soundtrack that stood out to you; I am not sure how to respond to that. I mean really. As in: Really? Think about it.

[SiN]

Uhhhhhh, Katamari Damacy? Okay, so it was 2004, but still!

Mo

[Snooglebum]

I don't agree with the notion that game music has become either less interesting or that it used to be better in the past. At all. I'd like to hear why you think that, elmuerte, as I think that quality in games has increased across all disciplines.

Snooglebum, when you say that in recent years, you can't remember a soundtrack that stood out to you; I am not sure how to respond to that. I mean really. As in: Really? Think about it.

Well, I should have prefaced that with the fact that I can't play all that many games, due to having a net income of about $10.

I'm curious, what soundtracks stand out to you? I'm really curious.

Now that I'm thinking about it... NOBY NOBY BOY! Although that's one song.

[Lu]

A messy list of the past 5 years offa the top of my head:

Shadow of the Colossus

Civilization 4 has some classics. Well... To me that Baba Yetu song, really.

Even though I'm not a big fan of the Halo games, I really liked a lot of the stuff on the Halo: ODST soundtrack.

Twilight Princess

Mirror's Edge

Super Mario Galaxy was quite nice too, especially the orchestral ones.

Does Bionic Commando Rearmed count? Since it was based on the NES game and all... The 2009 flop Bionic Commando had a couple of excellent tracks as well.

Aquaria

Everyday Shooter

Mass Effect 1 and 2; maybe not stuff you'd humm around the office, but when you hear it you instantly recognize it.

Metal Gear Solid 4

Uncharted 2

Persona 4!

I've only very recently started listening to the Demon's Souls one. Some good stuff there too.

In general, I think the sound design in the Battlefield: Bad Company games is a real stand out; not so much in terms of music.

Prematurely I'm also going to say Starcraft 2.

Lots of good stuff missing from that list, I'm sure. I haven't played a lot of Japanese games in recent times, so there is another source of potentially awesome stuff. Also, the stuff you don't really notice, not because it's generic, but because it was made to be more ambient and/or interactive or whatever.

This year, I don't know. I haven't bought a lot of games yet. Anyway, THERE YOU GO.