Darksiders: The Wrath of War

[Rueler]

I don't even remember the soundtrack... And I played it a few hours ago...

That's exactly what I mean. The setting for Darksiders was perfectly suited for metal, and if I remember, they just had some cookie-cutter orchestral music that seems basic to a lot of games.

[Xeneth]

Blew through this when it came out a while back- Generally a fan of Zelda and God of War, so I found the baseline mechanics pretty inviting.

Interesting comment about the music that I hadn't really noticed until it was pointed out. Sure enough, not really memorable. I don't recall it being BAD or not fitting what was going on really, but that's sort of the curse of the audio department right? That if you do your job properly no one even notices. I did have issues with the overall audio balance and SFX in Darksiders though- Weapon/combat noises were mixed WAY too high and fought/drowned each other out quite a bit. In 3D brawlers like Devil May Cry it's really important to have audio cues for every enemy attack so that you can dodge or block something the camera happens to not be showing you, and if they had those, I wasn't catching them through the sound of my own slashing and dashing.

There does seem to be a really broad trend toward music in games having that adequate level of polish that makes it blend into the experience though, and am finding it more and more rare that it sticks with me afterward at all...

The act of playing a game is more mentally distracting than watching other kinds of media, so I feel like special attention should be paid to not emulating Hollywood in this regard. I have a theory, that in order for the music in a game to stick with you afterwards it needs:

• To be idiosyncratic or contrasting sharply against the on-screen action (Persona series throws all kinds of stylistic curveballs: "Boss fight... uh, time for big jazz band techno? Why not!")
  
• Strong "themeing", like in a John Williams score, where the same tunes get woven into the music at multiple points using different styles. (See Kratos' theme from God of War)
  
• To be reactive/relevant to the on-screen action (Rhythm games, Quantization)
  
• Be unique or unlike anything you'd hear in another game, let alone something like a movie (Katamari Damacy?)
  
• To be simple or minimalist enough that the "hooks" are easily memorized (Most old school platformers?)
  

Can you guys think of any other methods/examples? I'm thinking back through all the game tunes in my noggin and concluding that a big part of it is just complexity-based. Most of my fond/remembered game music is from the 8/16 bit era, and that probably has something to do with the tools... Sometimes, when it comes to art, having limitations really helps bring out the elemental qualities that make art appealling.

Maybe the NES could only play three or four "voices" at the same time and one of those is reserved for SFX, but you know what, it's hard to hum a 100-piece orchestral score by yourself!

Edited April 14, 2010 by Xeneth

[twmac]

That's actually pretty interesting and I had not really noticed the music either but like Xeneth said, I'm one of those people who doesn't really notice the music unless it is really bad.

The thing is, unless the music or sound is intrinsic to the gameplay I always put my own custom soundtrack on (except in COD games where IW decided not to support it).

One thing I would disagree with, Xeneth, is the John Williams style score. Maybe I misunderstood, are you talking about the idea of taking one song and melding it convincingly into different scenarios, approaching it slightly differently each time or are you talking about that 'epic score' thing that JW is known for. If it is the latter I am well and truly sick of that in games and as much as I hated the music in Bayonetta, would rather see that approach.

[dpp]

I started playing tonight, just finished the arcade gryphon part. Can anyone tell me how long this game is?

[twmac]

I did quite a bit of backtracking and exploring and it took me 20 hours.

If you ignored most of the stuff then maybe 14 hours?

[dpp]

That's a LONG game then... We'll see to which point I'll still be enjoying it. For now, I'm not too happy with the dodging (and the fact that blocking is done with the same button) and the pretty shitty frame rates on the 360. But the gameplay in general seems OK...

[twmac]

Wow, I played the game when the screen tearing was bad but the framerate was fine. So the patch screwed up the framerate? Shame.

I barely used block and was happy using dash in most encounters.

The game has plenty of content, which is a good thing...?

[Xeneth]

Maybe I misunderstood, are you talking about the idea of taking one song and melding it convincingly into different scenarios, approaching it slightly differently each time or are you talking about that 'epic score' thing that JW is known for.

No, I don't think you did. I'm talking more about the recurring theme weaving than the actual STYLE of music in my example; I am also quite sick of the epic swelling movie orchestral scores in most mainstream big budget action games. The less we emulate Hollywood the better in my opinion. How we can collectively brag about kicking the movie industry's ass in terms of revenue and growth, (not to mention claiming to be a deeper and more fulfilling type of media!) while sucking up to it and mooching style/ideas/IP from it is beyond me!

Okay, sidetrack... sorry. Yeah, I was just using Williams scores as an example of attaching a particular melody or instrument to a character or a place or what have you... and then weaving that element into the proceedings in such a way as to subconsciously create connections between what you're hearing and what you're seeing beyond the typical "this thematically reflects what's going on at the moment". Williams is a good composer... for movies! I don't think the swelling dramatic orchestra fits most of the things the game industry uses it for, honestly.

More relevant examples would be:

• Tristam's theme music playing when he makes an entrance in Final Fantasy Mystic Quest
  
• The Ace Attourney series attaches almost every song and sound effect it plays to a character, mood, place, event, etc.
  
• The music shifting into a minor key and getting a bit distorted when you stay in a level too long in Spelunky... sort of?
  
• Uh, like if someone made a Peter And The Wolf video game... or something...

These are all quite run-of-the-mill actually, and naturally have branched of the simplest early necessities of game design:

"It would be boring if the same music played all the time."

"Well, let's make a variety of different tunes."

"Great! ...Now when should we switch between them? Randomly doing it would be jarring and require lines of code."

"Just have it load a different one when it loads a new screen/level/etc. The hooks are already there!"

"Spiffing!"

I'd like to see more "weaving" and natural extensions of the basic concepts, but sadly music is often treated like the very last/least important thing to get added to a game. I'd like to see level designers given some early samples and tracks to listen to prior to jumping into their editors with the directive, "Make it feel like this sounds!" I'd like to see RPGs that tend to have a central "battle" theme weave different instruments and harmonies into the same track based on which party member is kicking the most ass that fight (or which enemy!)

(See the whole SCUMM Moneky Island Thumbs conversation for some more cool ideas along these lines!)

I did quite a bit of backtracking and exploring and it took me 20 hours.

If you ignored most of the stuff then maybe 14 hours?

Sounds about right to me. God only knows why but I put the additional 5 hours or so in to track down all the collectables and crap. It felt similar in length to Twilight Princess in that regard.

[toblix]

I'd like to see more "weaving" and natural extensions of the basic concepts, but sadly music is often treated like the very last/least important thing to get added to a game.

I think iMUSE was the final great stride in the evolution of Video game music. Although I don't know the story behind it, I assume it was born from the realisation that game music was so far behind "real" music in many respects (fidelity, mostly). It seems that once the technology allowed studios to just put an orchestral score on the CD, it was no longer that interesting to try new stuff, as the music was now on the surface comparable to that of film.

Although didn't LucasArts also use iMUSE after they started using recorded music, like in Monkey Island 3? Anyway, it would be awesome if at one point a game included an advanced music engine that used proper instrument samples, and created an on-the-fly orchestral score, Tom & Jerry style.

[miffy495]

My ideal game score would include pizzicato violin every time I stepped onto a stair and a flurry of a manic string section whenever the action got intense. Also,

when I lose a life.

[elmuerte]

Still trying to complete this game. I really dislike the constant "locked room arena fights". And is it just me, or are these side brawls way more difficult than the actual boss fights?

I think the game is putting it way too much gameplay elements that are only used for a short time. Just recently I gained the power of portals.

I do dig the whole visual style of the game. It's just the actual gameplay that isn't that great. I rarely ever feel like I'm in real control of my actions (like I do had with Arkham Asylum).

[JonCole]

Still trying to complete this game. I really dislike the constant "locked room arena fights". And is it just me, or are these side brawls way more difficult than the actual boss fights?

I don't know about way more difficult, but the boss fights certainly weren't that hard once you did the little pattern recognition trick and all that.

I think the game is putting it way too much gameplay elements that are only used for a short time. Just recently I gained the power of portals.

I don't really think that's to its detriment, though. Most of the items you gain that only have a little bit of utility are actually decent in other applications... nothing as silly as that gear top in whichever Zelda game.

I do dig the whole visual style of the game. It's just the actual gameplay that isn't that great. I rarely ever feel like I'm in real control of my actions (like I do had with Arkham Asylum).

Comparing an action game to Arkham Asylum will almost universally make it look bad, for what it's worth. Though I do agree... it felt a bit more hack-and-slash than actual combo driven game like DMC or God of War. That's probably due to its deeper roots in something like Zelda, I imagine.

[Twig]

I just started playing it last night. Bought it with the recent sale because a friend told me to.

I am loving it. It is fantastic. U:

The only real complaint I have is I fucking hate the aiming controls. Even aiming with the mouse feels awkward. It's so bad. Oh man.

I love the combat - especially now that I've just finished the second dungeon and have unlocked a lot more moves - so the constant fighting doesn't bother me. The

gun

I got after finishing that dungeon confused me, though. It's insanely weak, and just feels out of place in my arsenal. Why would I ever, ever use it?

I do wish the items were used more, and in more versatile ways, but I'm not too fussed. Especially because War is so much more mobile than Link ever is. Being able to jump goes pretty far in making up for a slightly flawed attempt at Zelda.

[JonCole]

I love the combat - especially now that I've just finished the second dungeon and have unlocked a lot more moves - so the constant fighting doesn't bother me. The

gun

I got after finishing that dungeon confused me, though. It's insanely weak, and just feels out of place in my arsenal. Why would I ever, ever use it?

Don't know if I need this spoiler tag, but I'm using it mostly due to the fact that Twig did.

I mostly used it because it's the only easy way to do damage at range and it's a decent way to slowly whittle down an enemy at the beginning of an encounter or if my HP drops down to almost nothing.

[Twig]

Yeah, I don't really care about that sort of "spoiler" but some people do. Game's been out for so long, though, it's probably not an issue. J:

I don't even really see it being useful in those cases. Or, I guess I should say, it's so boring, I won't even pretend it's useful.

Does it blow up bomb plants? O:

[elmuerte]

I don't know about way more difficult, but the boss fights certainly weren't that hard once you did the little pattern recognition trick and all that.

In the tower you'll encounter ghost like foes, sometimes even 2 at the time. They have an attack that takes away about 3 health bars. Not a single boss so far did that much damage.

[OssK]

In the tower you'll encounter ghost like foes, sometimes even 2 at the time. They have an attack that takes away about 3 health bars. Not a single boss so far did that much damage.

Did you pick the difficulty level of "rape me please I want to die shamefully" ? Cause I really don't remember it being so hard :x

[Twig]

I'm playing on Apocalyptic because I hate myself - and kind of wanted a change of pace, as most other games I've played recently, barring Hitman: Codename 47, have been a cakewalk.

I'm not at the tower, yet. But there are quite a few enemies that, if you don't fight them properly, can tear you down super fast. Once you learn the trick, though, and once you remember to use chaos form only when you NEED it, the fights stop being super challenging even on that setting. At least, I think so. J:

[CaptainFish]

I agree that the combat in this game doesn't stand up to the games it's most commonly compared to (God of War, DMC3, even Zelda, since that is a different style of combat).

My most obvious issue was the camera being zoomed in far too tight for crowd control, especially when lock on is enabled. I played on Apocalyptic as well, so not using lock on was something I had to learn early on to avoid being murdered by some off screen enemy.

There is also the way dodges are just for dodging, and don't really give you invincibility frames. If you're still in the attack animation you'll take damage. Once you get more weapons, mods and upgrades, it becomes less of an issue as you can just scythe or fist pound everyone around you to death in seconds, but I definitely had a rough first 8 hours.

[Wrestlevania]

Just finished this (took less than 12hrs, and I got all but a couple of the collectibles, including all the special armour) and have been hooked from the start. Really fantastic.

I liked the combat very much, though it can get repetitive if you chose not to mix things up with the myriad of different moves you can unlock and then power up. But that's entirely up to you, same as any other roaming beat-em-up.

The puzzles around the middle part of the game I didn't particularly enjoy at first - The Ashlands' stuff seems particularly tedious and repetitive - but they became more interesting and varied as you moved into different areas.

Speaking of varied, the art style is great--particularly the myriad of different environments. At a very basic level, they all revolve around the same two themes - ruined beauty for the Earthly settings, and floating citadels for the Netherworld stuff. But it's executed with such detail and variety.

The world mechanics are also nicely varied, too, gaining new skills and being able to open up new areas you couldn't get into before. I loved revisiting earlier parts of the game, both to soak up the atmosphere of the beautiful levels, and also for how satisfying the mechanics are when you work something out for yourself.

Thoroughly enjoyed this, and it's going for next-to-nothing at the moment. I'd recommend it to anyone, and if you like Metroidvania games don't hesitate to get this.

Very interested to see what the sequel does, particularly as it looks like Death will play with much greater variety:

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