GDC! Idle Thumbs Conf Grenade 3: Morality, the Medical Surprise

[Jake]

A million Thumbs guys on this episode! Crazy town.

GDC! Idle Thumbs Conf Grenade 3:

"Morality, the Medical Surprise"

Steve Gaynor and Duncan Fyfe join us for the penultimate Conf Grenade, blasting through GDC's midsection at a rate so fast, you might not survive the trip. Put on your game developer hat and buckle up.

Things Discussed: Zeno Clash, Far Cry 2, Punch Out!!, The Maw, the Game Design Challenge, Peter Molyneux, Dr. Robotnik, Steve Meretzky, Margaret Robertson, Clint Hocking, Talking, Stalking

Edited March 30, 2009 by Jake

[elmuerte]

could be just me, or are certain people becoming even more insane?

The maw was a lot of fun. I enjoyed the funny behavior of the maw. And I didn't feel sorry at all for letting the maw eat those creatures. I'm not sure what the relation was between the planet and the creatures on it. Afaik those creatures didn't belong on that planet, they were simply collected by those bad guys from different planets. It wasn't made clean at all in the story.

I didn't buy the DLC for the maw, I don't like micro-payments.

[Erkki]

I just got hit with all the conf grenades in a row, 210 minutes of thumbs.

I'm actually playing the Maw since yesterday (on the Xbox because the camera controls are more responsive than in the PC version). I do like it a lot, but I also got the feeling that it was a little sadistic.

[syntheticgerbil]

Not every Sierra game aged that bad, I'm thinking in particular the Leisure Suit Larry series, the first Gabriel Knight, and most Space Quests.

I love Lucasarts more of course, but I guess I didn't understand that jab in reference to Freddy Pharkas, which I should note isn't purely an Al Lowe game since a majority of the boring and superfluous dialogue was a trademark of Josh Mandel, the codesigner. There are better games, but I don't think Freddy Pharkas is one of Sierra's more bottom of the barrel games, although they had plenty. Ironically enough I think the King's Quest games are more representative of bad aging and crappy design than anything else in the company.

I don't remember who said it, but I agree about Outlaws being pretty outdated when it first appeared, as I played a demo when it first came out. It seemed even then like a cheap Duke Nukem 3D knock off. I was actually really excited for it. And Afterlife, also appearing around the same time. Oh well...

And now the Maw and Zeno Clash are added to the list of games I will get around to finishing in 2012. Thanks dudesresfd!

[LetterT]

Bit-Trip. Beat. Win.

Grabbed it the other day. For $6, it's definitely worth it. My wife even likes it, and loves the music and rhythm of the game.

It would be awesome if there was better sound quality from the Wii. Listening to Bit-Trip. Beat through my receiver in digital sound would only make the experience that much better.

All in all, fantastic coverage of GDC.

Any plans to offer a ThumbsDetoxCast as we get back to the regularly scheduled once a week cast?

[miffy495]

I'm also in love with Bit.Trip Beat, and have been since buying it day one. Fantastic game. I sort of wish I could swap out the motion controls for more traditional dpad, but it works well enough so I don't really mind. I was actually considering starting a thread for it when it came out two Mondays ago but it seems as though Wii-centric threads don't really get a lot of love around here, no matter how great the game. Dominant opinion seems to be "Yeah, this'd be great if I hadn't sold my Wii a year/two years ago," which is a pity. Especially since games like this, Madworld, HotD, etc are making the system much more relevant this year than it has been for the last while.

[elmuerte]

Right, Outlaws. I loved that game, it's indeed the Best Western of Games. Besides Outlaws and Desperados I don't know a single good western game.

[brkl]

I've been wanting to play Outlaws for a couple of weeks actually, but haven't found it I've been playing Duke 3d and Strife, so I don't think I would mind the graphics.

[Erkki]

Outlaws was great! It also had pretty fun multiplayer mode, although I'm not much of a multiplayer gamer and don't have that much to compare it to.

[n0wak]

RE: Western Games

I'd love to see a good Western-styled game, but every game that I've seen (haven't played Outlaws) just takes it into generic gun-shootout realm but with more dirt textures. "Gun" was like this too. A great idea, but the execution was just lame and boring. The best Westerns out there are less about the shooting and the violence and more about the buildup towards it (95% of "High Noon" was the tension of waiting for the bad guys to come; "3:10 to Yuma", the original and remake, was also about the coming storm rather than any immediate action; and Sergio Leone turned this into an art form: the actual "gun fights" rarely last more than two seconds during showdowns that span many minutes). It's hard to translate this into a game when you place the trigger finger into an impatient user's mouse/controller and remove all consequence.

Which relates to the larger "games framed by references to film" discussion. Making a good Western is more that just giving people shootouts and horses and saloons. It's the kind of superficial copying of other media that does a disservice to all those trying to make the next "Y of games". Like you guys said, making the "Godfather of games" is about more than just making a good plot.

[Horticulture Tycoon]

Right, Outlaws. I loved that game, it's indeed the Best Western of Games. Besides Outlaws and Desperados I don't know a single good western game.

Sunset Riders was pretty fun for its time.

[syntheticgerbil]

AND THE COW BOYS OF MOO MESA!!!

[justin3d]

AND THE COW BOYS OF MOO MESA!!!

hahaha

I was trying to remember the name of that game.

[DanJW]

Regarding the mention of a western MMO, I was reminded of the game that was to be based on the manwa (Korean manga)Priest. I think it was canned though. Shame, as it would have made a great setting (western gunslingers + zombies and fallen angels and church conspiracies).

The manwa itself has a nice plot, even if each individual book is a bit story-lite, but it has an incredibly dynamic art style that I find fascinating. Check it out.

Other trivia: the manwa was in turn inspired by the Video game Blood. Oh, and it is printed on black paper.

[soupface]

The best Westerns out there are less about the shooting and the violence and more about the buildup toward it... It's hard to translate this into a game when you place the trigger finger into an impatient user's mouse/controller and remove all consequence.

Good observation; and I agree with your conclusion. Movies tell you what to look at, how long to look at it, etc. Games can't do that, really; they afford different kinds of experiences. It might be possible to inject some sort of tension into that situation by adding a shootout golf-meter or something, but it won't be the same.

Nor should they be the same.

I'm not at all keen on the "Citizen Kane/Godfather/Weekend at Bernie's of games" concept. When Citizen Kane was made, people weren't looking for (nor trying for) the Impression, soleil levant of movies—because that's fuggin' ridiculous.

If the two media were so easy to compare, then what would be the Deus Ex of movies or the Tetris of film? I mean, the same hollow mimicry of the surface elements—and the subsequent failure to translate what's good about the original experience—happens when you try to make a game of a film film of a game (

).

I only sound so mad because you reminded me of Gun. I really wanted to like that game. I really did.

[Horticulture Tycoon]

I'm not at all keen on the "Citizen Kane/Godfather/Weekend at Bernie's of games" concept. When Citizen Kane was made, people weren't looking for (nor trying for) the Impression, soleil levant of movies—because that's fuggin' ridiculous.

Well that's not really an apt comparison, since A. a painting is not a work of fiction, and B. by the time Citizen Kane was made, film was already well established as an art form, albeit a rapidly evolving one. But prior to D.W. Griffith coming along (who basically invented the entire visual vocabulary of film from scratch), the film industry was indeed struggling to find "the Hamlet of films", though maybe not necessarily in those words.

In fact, there was literally a film movement in French film during the first two decades of the twentieth century called "films d'art", where they would adapt great novels and stage plays nearly line-for-line. Of course, the term "films d'art" contained the obvious implication that all other films were, in fact, not art. I think it very much parallels what the games industry is going through now. And when you consider that Citizen Kane didn't come along until 25 years later - a film that didn't even remotely resemble the "films d'art" movement - I'd say we have a long wait for an achievement that impressive in the Video game industry, and when it arrives it won't be anything like the quote-unquote art games we have now.

[soupface]

Well that's not really an apt comparison, since A. a painting is not a work of fiction, and B. by the time Citizen Kane was made, film was already well established as an art form, albeit a rapidly evolving one... the film industry was indeed struggling to find "the Hamlet of films", though maybe not necessarily in those words.

Yes, but I would argue that you can compare a painting with a film with regard to some common elements (composition of image, colour, aesthetics, emotional response, perspective, etc.), but that they are different in many fundamental ways (in storytelling, feel, vocabulary, time, sensation, sequence, etc.), so different that it is ridiculous to expect a film to be as meaningful or successful in the same way as a painting. Good films are good films because they succeed as films, not as painting or architecture (though they can all be related in some ways).

The same goes for films and games. Games are similar to films in ways (character development, ability to convey narrative, abundance of slow-mo gunplay, etc.) but are different (interactivity, pacing, tolerance for repetition, appeal, etc.) in many important ways—in ways that make it seem silly to expect (even to talk about) "the Godfather of games." A great game succeeds as a game, not a film, soundtrack, or pastry.

I think that a lot of people know this, only haven't been able communicate clearly (and to my satisfaction) what they mean. I'm okay with hearing "there is a game that is as important to the history/vocabulary/public understanding of games as Citizen Kane was to films." I mean, there could a game that is "culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant" in a way analogous to that of Citizen Kane. I don't doubt there have been watershed gamed, paradigm shifts, what have you.

The thing is that I think that "the Citizen Kane of games" is sometimes too short-sighted (that the game will have to succeed in the same ways Kane succeeded) and not a reasonable expectation: why must there be a single game that becomes canonized, at the top of every Best Games Ever list, that totally blows everyone away? Why can't change be gradual, over a series of games or fads that are not immediately revolutionary or seen as masterpieces?

In fact, there was literally a film movement in French film during the first two decades of the twentieth century called "films d'art"... I think it very much parallels what the games industry is going through now.

True enough, though I do not think that I was arguing about "games as art." Just as there are arthouse films, there are plenty games that are very arty, deliberately and consciously.

And when you consider that Citizen Kane didn't come along until 25 years later - a film that didn't even remotely resemble the "films d'art" movement...

Yeah, funny that.