ThunderPeel2001

Books, books, books...

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So, we're doing comics in this thread, right?

I just read the Serenity/Firefly one that gives Book's backstory. A pretty slight one-shot, but the story would have been brilliant to watch unfold over ongoing Firefly seasons.

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So, we're doing comics in this thread, right?

I just read the Serenity/Firefly one that gives Book's backstory. A pretty slight one-shot, but the story would have been brilliant to watch unfold over ongoing Firefly seasons.

Definitely. I did really enjoy it, though. My favourite Serenity comic so far (really like Zack Whedon's writing). It would have been incredible to see that unfold over Season 3 (or whenever). There's an obvious bit where they'd just be about to throw him out the airlock until another bit of the puzzle becomes obvious... *sigh*

In some other universe, Firefly is the highest rated show on TV.

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In some other universe, Firefly is the highest rated show on TV.

In that same universe, TSCC is still on, Dollhouse never went anywhere but Whedon's mind, Angel is still going (though I don't know how I feel about not having Bones as a result) and Brad Pitt is a good actor.

I really hate that other universe. Why can't it be ours?

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It looks like there haven't been a lot of comic books mentioned in this thread, so I'm going to solicit some recommendations. I've recently been pretty wrapped up reading DC stuff, like Tornado's Path and Batman: Year One. My experience with comics is pretty damn limited, so essentially anything is on the table.

I've already got The Dark Knight Returns, Identity Crisis, Earth 2, Batman: Hush, Green Lantern: Rebirth, and Kingdom Come on my radar, for what it's worth.

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It looks like there haven't been a lot of comic books mentioned in this thread, so I'm going to solicit some recommendations. I've recently been pretty wrapped up reading DC stuff, like Tornado's Path and Batman: Year One. My experience with comics is pretty damn limited, so essentially anything is on the table.

I've already got The Dark Knight Returns, Identity Crisis, Earth 2, Batman: Hush, Green Lantern: Rebirth, and Kingdom Come on my radar, for what it's worth.

All-Star Superman is essential, I'd say, but you've got a good list there to work through.

In kinda-books news, I got the new 'issue' of McSweeney's Quarterly Concern today. It's a box, that looks a little like a pink Clark Gable, full of literary goodies. Here's a pic of it on my shelf:

mcsweeneys36.jpg

And a video going through the contents:

sAkURFRqu_8

Edited by Nevsky

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It looks like there haven't been a lot of comic books mentioned in this thread, so I'm going to solicit some recommendations. I've recently been pretty wrapped up reading DC stuff, like Tornado's Path and Batman: Year One. My experience with comics is pretty damn limited, so essentially anything is on the table.

I've already got The Dark Knight Returns, Identity Crisis, Earth 2, Batman: Hush, Green Lantern: Rebirth, and Kingdom Come on my radar, for what it's worth.

Probably rather obvious/clichéd at the moment, but Watchmen remains possibly the single best comic issue/graphic novel I've seen. Neil Gaiman's the Sandman series is almost certainly the best series I've seen. I refused to read the last volume for several months because I didn't want it to end.

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It looks like there haven't been a lot of comic books mentioned in this thread, so I'm going to solicit some recommendations. I've recently been pretty wrapped up reading DC stuff, like Tornado's Path and Batman: Year One. My experience with comics is pretty damn limited, so essentially anything is on the table.

I've already got The Dark Knight Returns, Identity Crisis, Earth 2, Batman: Hush, Green Lantern: Rebirth, and Kingdom Come on my radar, for what it's worth.

Kevin Smith's Green Hornet and the Marvel Noir series (particularly daredevil).

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It looks like there haven't been a lot of comic books mentioned in this thread, so I'm going to solicit some recommendations.

I'm kind of into arty comics, rather than stuff that places a huge priority on story or whatnot, but I wholeheartedly recommend Ashley Wood's Popbot (pricy, coffee table book type format though. there's two "collected" tpb volumes and then a complete hardcover I think. I just have the first collected one) and David Mack's painted/multimedia Kabuki material (some of it is just B&W inked which isn't my cup of tea). I would recommend the TPB Volume 4: Skin Deep as good starting point for Kabuki. If you like that then seek out more.

edit: some links

http://ashleybambaland.blogspot.com/

http://www.davidmack.net/

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I'm kind of into arty comics, rather than stuff that places a huge priority on story or whatnot, but I wholeheartedly recommend Ashley Wood's Popbot (pricy, coffee table book type format though. there's two "collected" tpb volumes and then a complete hardcover I think.

Oh man, I've been following Ashley Wood for years now, but I'm getting kind of pissed off with him. He's not releasing substantial comics anymore and generally doesn't seem like he's trying, continuously still drawing the same robots and girls, taking the easy way out. I have all of his older art books that were for sale to the public and there's so much more diversity shown in those than what he does now.

I have also read Popbot up to date. It certainly starts off great in the first five issues, maybe because of Sam Kieth's initial story help, then it sort of devolves into this thing of vignettes that has yet to have followed up on any of the established story, mystery, and universes presented in the beginning. As the panels half almost completely disappeared in the last two issues, at this point I get the feeling Ashley Wood is just painting the pictures first and half-assedly linking them together with text and word balloons.

Not to mention that everything he starts is forgotten about after two extremely late issues or less, Popbot looks like it will never be continued, and even earlier licensed work on the new Tank Girl reboot (which was looking amazing) was ceased and given to another artist for I guess becoming too much work for him. I suppose it's better to make a living selling $500 toys and continuously releasing limited artbooks with half of the SAME art as the last book (which I hate so fucking much) and not telling everyone ahead of time. He's just become so shady to me.

Ranting aside, the comic/book Ashley Wood illustrated that his wife wrote, Lore, is pretty damn good. It's a good chunk of story that's in one collected book. It remains unfinished as well, but what is there is a great read, I think. His Metal Gear Solid comics are probably the best comic book video game adaptations out there in terms of quality as well.

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In that same universe, TSCC is still on, Dollhouse never went anywhere but Whedon's mind, Angel is still going (though I don't know how I feel about not having Bones as a result) and Brad Pitt is a good actor.

I really hate that other universe. Why can't it be ours?

I really hate that other universe too.

Thank goodness it's not ours.

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I really hate that other universe too.

Thank goodness it's not ours.

Mind = Blown.

Why so, Remo?

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Why so, Remo?

Chris Remo: "I don't even think Whedon is particularly popular--if he were, his shows would probably last longer--but whether he is or not, I still can't stand his dialogue". Linky.

The latter statement is probably why Remo felt compelled to post.

For the record: Buffy lasted seven years, and only ended because the lead actress decided not to renew her contract. Angel lasted five years and only ended because Whedon got fed up and insisted the network give him an answer immediately, instead of waiting until the last minute, like they usually did. Viewing figures were actually up on the previous season at the time.

[/Whedon fanboy]

It's true that even at his "most popular" his have never been world-beating in terms of popularity, but it's undeniable that he has a die-hard legion of fans. His work definitely falls into the definition of "cult": "Loved (not liked) by a (relatively) small group of people".

Edited by ThunderPeel2001

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Hmm, I can see that. Fair enough.

Though I still think most of Firefly is fantastic in the character interaction department. Others. . .well, it varies greatly.

Either way, Brad Pitt being a good actor wouldn't be a half bad thing.

. . . :getmecoat

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I think Brad Pitt is a good actor. He was great in Twelve Monkeys, Fight Club amongst others.

Anyway, comics. I love Alan Moore, anything by him is well worth checking out (although he plays with the rules of the medium a lot, so he's perhaps not the best writer to start on). Evan Dorkin, Jhonen Vasquez, Chris Ware (especially "Jimmy Corrigan"), Frank Miller, "Maus", "Scott Pilgrim", "Y: The Last Man", "Bone".

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I think Brad Pitt is a good actor. He was great in Twelve Monkeys, Fight Club amongst others.

Anyway, comics. I love Alan Moore, anything by him is well worth checking out (although he plays with the rules of the medium a lot, so he's perhaps not the best writer to start on). Evan Dorkin, Jhonen Vasquez, Chris Ware (especially "Jimmy Corrigan"), Frank Miller, "Maus", "Scott Pilgrim", "Y: The Last Man", "Bone".

Maus :tup:

Y: The Last Man :tup:

Bone :tup:

also

Blankets

Alan Moore is great, but as Ben says, he often plays with the medium in a way that requires you to be somewhat familiar with it to fully appreciate. Gateway works of his include: V for Vendetta, Promethea and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (much, much, better than the movie).

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Mind = Blown.

Why so, Remo?

I absolutely despise Whedon's work. He is one of very few writers whose work I dislike so much that I actively avoid it, rather than simply not making an effort to see it.

And yeah I think Brad Pitt is a good actor in this universe already!

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I think Brad Pitt is a good actor. He was great in Twelve Monkeys, Fight Club amongst others.

Anyway, comics. I love Alan Moore, anything by him is well worth checking out (although he plays with the rules of the medium a lot, so he's perhaps not the best writer to start on). Evan Dorkin, Jhonen Vasquez, Chris Ware (especially "Jimmy Corrigan"), Frank Miller, "Maus", "Scott Pilgrim", "Y: The Last Man", "Bone".

Forgot Inglourious Basterds.

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Chris, that's not a sentiment I'd ever thought I'd hear someone share, to be honest. It's always been "eh, he's okay" when people don't like Whedon, or at worst "whatever".

Huh. Each their own, etc.

And yeah, I guess Brad Pitt is a good actor. I tend to forget it's actually him playing those roles (despite being more of an actor lover than a movie lover) and just enjoy the character. And then I watch Troy again. :(

Ah well. Enlightening day.

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First, I find it strange I agree with Chris Remo on anything ever. Second, I actively hate Joss Whedon as well, but letting that opinion out in real life or the interbutt usually leads me to arguments that I really don't want to waste my time on. Seriously, the best I think the guy has probably ever done is write a few episodes of Roseanne, and that is really not very notable.

Chris, that's not a sentiment I'd ever thought I'd hear someone share, to be honest. It's always been "eh, he's okay" when people don't like Whedon, or at worst "whatever".

Whedon just seems like either a grade A hack or an awesome purveyor of B-movie shlock, neither of which I'm interested in. I'm surprised you maybe haven't heard there are others who really despise Whedon, Orvidos?

What really sealed the deal is that I had read the script for Alien 4 out of OCD on the box set, and it was just absolute garbage with every other line being a cliche or catchphrase. I know there's an interview where he blames Jean Pierre Jeunet for doing everything wrong and directing the actors badly, which is plausible since the director did not know much English at the time, but the hammy dialogue is directly in the script itself. I don't know if any amount of directing could fix that garbage and I would say aside from Alien Resurrection, Jean Pierre Jeunet has never shown himself to be a bad director or even reaching mediocrity. Then again, it seems there are some Whedon fanboys who do hate Jeunet for the same reason that really got me actively hating Whedon. Go figure.

Them books.

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What really sealed the deal is that I had read the script for Alien 4 out of OCD on the box set, and it was just absolute garbage with every other line being a cliche or catchphrase. I know there's an interview where he blames Jean Pierre Jeunet for doing everything wrong and directing the actors badly, which is plausible since the director did not know much English at the time, but the hammy dialogue is directly in the script itself. I don't know if any amount of directing could fix that garbage and I would say aside from Alien Resurrection, Jean Pierre Jeunet has never shown himself to be a bad director or even reaching mediocrity. Then again, it seems there are some Whedon fanboys who do hate Jeunet for the same reason that really got me actively hating Whedon. Go figure.

The problem with Alien 4 wasn't the dialogue, it was the casting, the production design and the direction. It's almost impossible to read the Alien 4 script now without imaging the cast from the film, but if you try, you realise that the "space pirates" were written with a James Cameron style in mind (speaking of which -- want to talk about bad dialogue? Aliens!). But instead of tough, scary, ex-marines types we got... Wynona Ryder. WTF?

As someone else put it: Alien 4 is the only Alien film that didn't feel like it was set in a "real" world... and that's nothing to do with the script.

Of course, I do agree that there were problems with his script (showing the Aliens having a "conversation" and "thinking" was about the most anti-Aliens thing I can imagine -- awful idea).

As for Whedon in general, I am so far in the opposite direction, that I, like Orvidos, find it difficult to believe that anyone with intelligence or appreciation for well-written things could possibly dislike his stuff... but obviously that's not the case. I guess the reason for thinking that is because, for me, when he does stuff right, he does SO right, that I end up LOVING it. SO much so that I can't fathom how anyone else doesn't. (Which isn't to say that his stuff is not flawed, it certainly can be.)

I still can't help but wonder if you and Mr. Remo had pre-conceptions of what Whedon was before you saw something of his (and so came with expectations that weren't met?) or that you've only seen sporadic episodes of Buffy and Angel (and god knows there's some bad ones)?

I'll hold my hand up and sad that I didn't immediately love Firefly when I first saw it. I do think that Whedon has a knack for hiring "soft" men to play "strong" roles (and they can feel unconvincing at times) -- i.e. Angel, Riley, even Mal. And I used to think that Buffy was just about watching Sarah Michelle Gellar in tight outfits kick vampires (thank god it is NOT that). But whatever flaws there are, I can look past because of the things I like:

  • Witty dialogue in the tradition of Wilder. (Sorry, but it's true.)
  • Shows where, god forbid!, things actually happen! Characters actually change like real people, have ups and downs and aren't reset to square one at the end of every episode. (See Scully in the X-Files.)
  • Dangerous moments where -- gasp -- characters do actually die. Unlike most shows, you never feel "real" threat, because everyone is going to be ok. Whedon's not afraid of killing someone off it makes for a better story.
  • He actively subverts expectations based on the clichés of the medium. If you grew up watching and being frustrated by TV, he knows how to take things you recognize and do something different with them.

At least, these are the reasons why I like his stuff.

Edited by ThunderPeel2001

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The problem with Alien 4 wasn't the dialogue, it was the casting, the production design and the direction. It's almost impossible to read the Alien 4 script now without imaging the cast from the film, but if you try, you realise that the "space pirates" were written with a James Cameron style in mind (speaking of which -- want to talk about bad dialogue? Aliens!). But instead of tough, scary, ex-marines types we got... Wynona Ryder. WTF?

I'm not saying Alien 4 isn't a problematic film overall, but Whedon blaming Jeunet is lame for something he is still responsible. You say it's not the dialogue, but I have major problems with things like this exchange, which is in the script exactly:

CALL

Vriess. Forget it. He's been sucking down too much homebrew.

JOHNER

Don't push me, little Annalee. You hang with us a while, you'll learn I'm not the man with whom to fuck.

I don't know who talks like this, especially pirates or space marines. It just reeks of the "I'm-oh-so-clever" dialogue from the likes of Diablo Cody and Kevin Smith, who I also despise. Also, why is a marine using "whom" anyway?

The whole script stinks like that to me. I think the dialogue in Aliens is just as poor, if not worse, but I guess it makes sense for some to want to follow James Cameron's B-movie style (which also sucks), which is what I said of Whedon's possible angle earlier. I don't really see how it's necessarily Jeunet's responsibility to coach the actor's through delivering such rough dialogue in the first place. It could be, but it's not always, and many directors do let the actors figure it out. Ron Perlman should be perfect for the part he was given as demonstrated in other movies he's played big tough joker types, but so many of his lines still made me cringe.

I think a scriptwriter who has a trail to show exactly what he did and then turns around and blames everyone on the crew except himself for "doing everything wrong," is incredibly petty. This leads to insane tirades by fanboys like this that just assume a ton and need something lash out at:

http://www.whedon.info/Joss-Whedon-Alien-4-Resurrection.html

I'm not saying Jeunet did an amazing job or that Alien 4 is not obnoxious for existing, but I do get the idea that he did the best with what he could work with and there's a lot to note about FOX interfering with shaping the Alien franchise this way or that since the second movie. I've enjoyed everything Jeunet has directed immensely outside of Alien 4, but Joss Whedon has come off hit or miss, mostly miss, to me.

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How about them books?

I'm reading A Confederacy of Dunces. I've yet to see much of a confederacy, but there's quite a few dunces; it's actually quite a cast of characters in here, complete with spiffing dialogue. Based on what I've read so far (150 pages left), I highly recommend it.

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It just reeks of the "I'm-oh-so-clever" dialogue from the likes of Diablo Cody and Kevin Smith, who I also despise.

Love Diablo Cody. Love Kevin Smith (for his dialogue, only). Love Aaron Sorkin. Love Billy Wilder. Love Leigh Brackett. Love Raymond Chandler. Love Gregory McDonald. Just love smart, witty dialogue.

To each to their own.

I think a scriptwriter who has a trail to show exactly what he did and then turns around and blames everyone on the crew except himself for "doing everything wrong," is incredibly petty.

Yep. I appreciate that. I think Whedon does, too, to a degree (he declined to take part in either the Quadrilogy or Anthology boxsets). Plus he kept his mouth shut for years following its release, and only finally revealed his opinions when it didn't matter any more. But yeah, you can't help but sound petty when you say stuff like that.

I don't really see how it's necessarily Jeunet's responsibility to coach the actor's through delivering such rough dialogue in the first place. It could be, but it's not always, and many directors do let the actors figure it out.

I know what you're saying here, but if the director lets the actor figure it out, and they give a cruddy performance, it's still the director's fault.

The director is there to ensure the footage that goes into the camera and gets recorded onto sound reels is the best version of the script possible (or they can possibly manage). That's what their job is.

It's George Lucas's fault, for example, that Jake Lloyd gave such a shitty performance in TPM. Sure the dialogue was risible, but Lloyd's performance was, um, risible-er. Lucas should have seen what a mess was being created and either, worked with the actor to improve things, or if that wasn't working, re-cast the role. (And if that wasn't a possibility, then he should have cut out as much dialogue as possible.)

Even the most hands-off type of director, like Woody Allen (who is famous for not rehearsing and giving minimal direction to his actors), needs to make sure they're getting what they need for a good film. In Allen's case, if he's not getting what he wants, then he'll literally re-cast the part and re-shoot their scenes (and destroy the original negatives).

Here's Kubrick talking about getting a good performance from actors:

"The director's job is to know what emotional statement he wants a character to convey in his scene or his line, and to exercise taste and judgement in helping the actor give his best possible performance. By knowing the actor's personality and gauging his strengths and weaknesses a director can help him to overcome specific problems and realize his potential."

A great example of someone taking a perfectly good Whedon line (IMO) and totally fucking it up (again, IMO), is in X-Men.

That horrendous line:

STORM has TOAD cornered. There is no escape.

STORM: "You know what happens when a toad get hits by lightning?"

TOAD looks unsure. STORM blasts him with lightning.

He falls to his apparent doom.

STORM: "Same thing that happens to everything else!"

If you remember that line, you might remember groaning in the cinema along with everyone else. The problem is that Singer/Berry totally fucked it up... Storm's second line was a throwaway, a line that you shrug, not a dramatic put down (as Berry delivered it).

Singer obviously didn't "get it" and told her/let her deliver it like that, and created one of the worst "action hero" put downs in movie history. If he didn't see the problem on the day, he should have cut the line in editing.

Anyways, it's interesting to hear why you don't like Whedon. If you don't like "that sort" of dialogue, then I can totally appreciate that he would drive you insane.

Edited by ThunderPeel2001

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