Idle Thumbs 17: War of the Broses

[Chris]

On Killzone 2: Okay, I haven't played it, but it sounds like the kind of game (AI heavy combat oriented shooter) that would suck on lower difficulties and become actually really awesome when it's a challenge (it's a totally different kind of game but Dead Space was like this). Maybe it's better if you make it harder, Remo?

Secondly, I can't find the "hooray for you" think on youtube. Do I want to see it?

For next week maybe I'll try it on the top difficulty and see how it plays in comparison.

And hooray for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETN1px7i4KY

[T-Matt]

The sombitch audio sample is making me laugh way more than it should.

[Chris]

http://idlethumbs.net/remo/idlethumbs_090204_mw.mp3

[elmuerte]

A lot of ideal solutions "sound better" than a practical solution. I wish that I and all other game menu makers had infinite resources. Games would probably look and feel a lot better and have better flow all around. Sadly, game menus and user accessibility and flow through them has only recently started to get any attention, and still not as much as it should.

I know, however it does often feel that menus get more attention on an artistic level than on a functional level. Which is quite a shame.

Menus are often the first and last thing you interact with in a play session, so half-assing them seems dumb, but they're definitely not the core reason someone buys your game, so they often don't get the money or time they deserve.

Interesting to note, there were quite a lot of vocal people complaining about the UI of UT3. Usually complaining about minor issues, for example: not enough "advanced" graphic settings exposed through the menu. I thing I've often said was: "the less time you spend in the menu of the game, the better it is." However, a "start game" adds menu time.

As for it being a "terrible place" for that, I don't follow. At least on the 360, it's basically just the logo of the game you're playing, over which the 360 draws a big blade or pop-up with the system UI for account management.

Wasn't talking about xbox360 in specific, but more in general. I don't have an xbox360 so I don't know how it all feels like. But do you really need a "start game" screen, can't you simply place the partially disabled menu at the place where the blade pops up?

For example in fallout 3 on the PC some of the menu items will be disabled when you log out from your xbl gfw thingy. Funny thing is that it will pop-under a notice that you can't use those options because you are not logged in.

Anyway, that behavior sounds much better that the "start game" screen. Also, when you're not logged in, can you exit the start game screen? If so, then what do you get? If not, then how do you exit the game.

They can do a nice job of setting the tone for a session while I'm in the kitchen making tea, then settling into the sofa That doesn't need "press start", but as a convention it makes me a little nostalgic for all the console gaming I've done going back to the NES.

Isn't the normal menu good enough for that?

[Nachimir]

hooray for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETN1px7i4KY

That thing should totally have an affirmative puzzle piece token merchandising tie-in with Braid. The CD could kick in whenever you've been stuck on one puzzle for too long, and scream "HOORAY FOR YOU" every time you solve one. Instead of telling an ambiguous story about science and romantic love, the puzzle pieces could instead build up into a life-affirming and fluffy work of self help and validated feelings.

[DanJW]

Regarding 1st person vs 3rd person storytelling;

It seems to me that 1st person is better for depicting 'the environment as character', because as noted it puts you there in that place. However to me it seems that 3rd person games are better when it comes to human character development (or whatever sentient species you are dealing with).

I've mentioned before that I find Bioware's RPG portfolio much more engaging when it comes to characters than I do Bethesda's - but Bethesda's'environments are much more thrilling to explore.

Perhaps like Jake says, when in first person you are playing "curious guy" - you are almost a non-person, even when you have dialogue. Often the player feels like they are 'themself' transported into the fantasy world, rather than taking on an assumed identity. Contrast that with the much stronger characterisation possible with a 3rd person protagonist like Shepherd in Mass Effect. I'm not sure Shepherd could be made to work in 1st person, it just wouldn't feel right.

[Chris]

Good points Dan, but I disagree about Shepherd. That guy was as bland as they come; I don't think I would have been any less invested in him as a character were it a first-person game.

[DanJW]

Ah, my Shepherd was a woman. A space-nazi-goth lady, in fact, and I was impressed by her voice acting and script. But anyway,.

[Chris]

Ah, my Shepherd was a woman. A space-nazi-goth lady, in fact. But anyway,.

Yeah but that doesn't change anything other than the visual element, really.

[DanJW]

Just edited my post to mention the voice acting. Could that make a difference? Also I played Renegade, to go with her gothic space-nazism. Possibly the paragon path is more boring, if that's what you played (conflict is drama!)

In any case I am sure there are other examples that we could both agree on. Planescape Torment maybe.

[nonamermcgee]

For next week maybe I'll try it on the top difficulty and see how it plays in comparison.

And hooray for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETN1px7i4KY

OMG I thought this was fake and you guys were joking. WOW. I'd feel bad but this made me feel good, hooray for me.

[twmac]

Speaking purely from a QA side of things. When a developer tries some, clever, dynamic way of handling gamer profile changes they usually fuck up their game in a million different ways. I should know because I get to the find them all.

I used to hate the conventions that demanded that all the different menu items had to be called specific things (player match, ranked match for example) and then my embarassment when I played Halo 3 and was completely flumoxed by their system that happened use different names.

Microsoft is programming us and we don't even know it.

[Garple]

Yeah, that's fair. I'm not doing a traditional written review, so my reactions were just that--my own reactions. Pretty much all my opinions are the podcast are just my own opinions about games, as opposed to trying to do a balanced review that takes what different people might be looking for into account.

Yeah? Well, FUCK THAT! JUST KIDDING AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[T-Matt]

http://idlethumbs.net/remo/idlethumbs_090204_mw.mp3

Thank you Chris!

I pretty much feel the same way as you guys on sports games. They are best playing against your friends that you can trash talk to and have fun. Not the type of games I want to play online because I only feel competitive with them against people I know. I'm happy buying last year's Madden. I also like the more arcadey type sport games such as NBA streetz.

And the extreme games I like those too because they are over the top. I loved the Tony Hawk series until Underground 2 where it became a shit sandwich.

[Garple]

That thing should totally have an affirmative puzzle piece token merchandising tie-in with Braid. The CD could kick in whenever you've been stuck on one puzzle for too long, and scream "HOORAY FOR YOU" every time you solve one. Instead of telling an ambiguous story about science and romantic love, the puzzle pieces could instead build up into a life-affirming and fluffy work of self help and validated feelings.

I'm sure Jon Blow would love that (BIG GRIN).

[miffy495]

Just edited my post to mention the voice acting. Could that make a difference? Also I played Renegade, to go with her gothic space-nazism. Possibly the paragon path is more boring, if that's what you played (conflict is drama!)

I played female paragon. From what I hear, the female voice acting was significantly higher quality than the male, but I doubt it's enough to completely change your outlook on the character. Unless you're particularly fickle, I guess. For the record, I also got very involved with Mass Effect.

[brkl]

Since when is Holland 'one of those Nordic countries'? Don't take away what little national pride we got. (re. where killzone was made)

Get off our lawn, Holland.

[elmuerte]

Get off our lawn, Holland.

Yeah. Besides, it's "the Netherlands"

[razlebol]

I listened to idlethumbs for the first time today and episode 17 made me laugh out loud on my way home in a bus full of people at the counter-strike part.

Very good show, I will make sure to download every one of them from now on.

[Noyb]

I agree on You Have To Burn The Rope Chris, and was quite surprised to see it in the IGF nominations.

A bunch of people wanted me to show it at the Eurogamer Expo, and every time it was mentioned started throwing words like "Genius!" around. It's witty, but it's a five minute diversion, not a masterpiece.

Same for me. It's polished and makes its point, and the developer seems cool, but I wouldn't call it especially innovative. I guess most of it depends on how much one enjoys the end song, which I found moderately charming.

Compare this with 4'33" of Uniqueness by the developer of Crayon Physics. As a game, it's barely interactive, but the concept (which I won't spoil) is fairly interesting.

Also, even though TIGSource's Bootleg Demake contest was briefly mentioned in a tangent to a tangent, my ego feels hurt that you didn't mention my entry.