Idle Thumbs 17: War of the Broses

[Chris]

No guest this week, just us. And space Nazis.

"War of the Broses"

Grab a brew and waste the Space Fuhrer with your friends from the quad. Chris weighs in on Killzone 2, Nick weighs the good and bad of two upcoming strategy titles, and Jake weighs the importance of a polished first play experience... with your mom. How many times have you heard a dictionary say "penis?"

Games discussed: Killzone 2, Halo Wars, Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War II, World of Goo, Left 4 Dead

[modeps]

I'm getting a 502 when trying to download the episode through iTunes.

edit: there we go, must have hit it at a weird time... Hopefully you talk about Nick's role in this ShackNews/GameFly thing, but I'm guessing the podcast was recorded prior to the announcement.

Edited February 4, 2009 by modeps

[elmuerte]

So... second time Jake died, how many [lives] does he have left?

About the game start menu. What I really hate (besides unskippable intro movies) are the title screens with "press start". It slows me down even more to get into the game. PC games didn't have them, but in the last few years they introduced them to the PC (there is no "start" button ffs), usually this is the case with games that are also on the console.

As for data collecting. I am one of those guy that doesn't like that stuff. I know it can be very valuable information. But I don't like information about me and.or my behavior being recorder without my permission. Make that stuff optional. Also allow people to comment on the session data, because it would be very useful for the dev to know if I was seriously trying to play the game, or just mess around with it. For example in Assassin's Creed it did mess around with the whole running through the city, just for the heck of it.

ps, I'm actually shocked that you didn't ask that website to say "The Wizard"

Edited February 4, 2009 by elmuerte

[Garple]

Great quotes from the Bioshock girlfriend thing:

"Are they roses, or are they just going to be plants? Or like are they going to be in a big marked thing that says: 'we're roses!'"

"Where's that music coming from?"

"Oh, I electrocute you and then shoot you, don't I? Yes."

"I'm gonna loot your bodies now, 'cause I'm so full of respect for the dead."

"I know you're a bad guy, because everyone in this game's a bad guy."

[Steve]

"I just killed a man for 2 dollars!"

[ysbreker]

Since when is Holland 'one of those Nordic countries'? Don't take away what little national pride we got. (re. where killzone was made)

[nonamermcgee]

BREW DIZZ OGS

[bugmenot]

The Space hun is coming!

________

buy silver surfer

Edited January 18, 2011 by bugmenot

[Nachimir]

That advert for the CD of cheering... oh god. That's so funny I almost cried

[James]

About the game start menu. What I really hate (besides unskippable intro movies) are the title screens with "press start". It slows me down even more to get into the game.

But think of all that awesome menu art that would be slightly obscured by having an actual menu in front of it! Think of how aesthetically enriched the fraction of a second before you impatiently hammer on the start button is!

No, yeah, it's daft.

[soupface]

Here's a

. You're welcome, lazy folks that do not read Kotaku.

[soupface]

About the game start menu. What I really hate (besides unskippable intro movies) are the title screens with "press start". It slows me down even more to get into the game. PC games didn't have them, but in the last few years they introduced them to the PC (there is no "start" button ffs), usually this is the case with games that are also on the console.

It wouldn't surprise me if these "hit start" screens are vestigial hold overs from the arcade era. I mean, when not being played, arcade games would go into "attract mode," playing short recorded demos (and occasionally flashing those "Winners Don't Use Drugs" screens) between prompts to insert coins.

Early console games did this too (I remember watching Earthworm Jim's attract mode through a store window while waiting for my parents at the mall), except that instead of asking for coins, they'd prompt players to hit start.

I don't know of any recent console releases that have an attract mode (or idle demo, or screen saver); game stores run trailers and commercials, and what systems they have running are for playing, not watching.

There might be some other function these screens serve, but, yeah, they seem unnecessary now.

[Chris]

Actually, a huge proportion of modern console games feature attract modes. I would venture to say most do.

[Nachimir]

I agree on You Have To Burn The Rope Chris, and was quite surprised to see it in the IGF nominations.

A bunch of people wanted me to show it at the Eurogamer Expo, and every time it was mentioned started throwing words like "Genius!" around. It's witty, but it's a five minute diversion, not a masterpiece.

[James]

The other videos from the "GF plays..." series are pretty entertaining, too. It seems like Counter Strike was the only one she didn't really enjoy. Interesting.

[cervin]

Since when is Holland 'one of those Nordic countries'? Don't take away what little national pride we got. (re. where killzone was made)

The Netherlands has a lot of tall, blonde people, so I can understand the confusion. Also, lots of bikes.

About Killzone 2: maybe you, Chris Remo, aren't enamored with a deliberately paced, tightly directed FPS experience, but if you invested early in the 10 year life cycle and don't own an Xbox because Christ you've already spent $600, there really aren't that many great shooters in this milieu on the system. Like, I get lost trying to get to the same Safeway I've shopped at for 5 years; I don't need a big open world experience to recreate what I'm used to. I don't want that sensation like I'm waiting for a bus in a city where I wasn't sure there was a bus line in my Video game. I do want to shoot the helmets off dudes who don't realize they're not completely behind their cover. Apples and oranges.

[Jake]

There's an incredibly practical reason for Press Start screens, at least on some consoles. That doesn't make Press Start screens any less annoying (they are dumb, and I also loathe them on PC titles... especially when I have to ship a game with one *), but there are some places where they have some tangible benefits.

I don't know if the "press start" screens are required for certification purposes, but they do serve a function on game consoles which have account systems -- they're a great place to deposit players if you, for instance, sign out of your Xbox Live account mid-game.

If all of your menu systems in-game are contingent on the player having an account -- for instance, if all of the save/load screens are for saves tied to your gamertag, if the achievements and leaderboards are tied to your gamertag, etc -- it's far far easier and more clean to just drop the player on a separate, simple screen outside of all of that if they sign out. The other option is to create alternate states for all of your menus which only enable offline functionality, have messages all over the place about how you can't save while logged out, can't access leaderboards, etc.

On the Wii, the Press Start screen is often there to make sure the player has the controller oriented the right way -- in a game where you hold the remote in "pointer" mode, it will often ask you to press A+B, an easy thing to do when your thumb and index finger are on the top and bottom of the remote, as they are in pointer mode. If you're intended to hold it in "classic" NES-controller-style mode, the game will often ask you to press 1 or 2, as that's where your right thumb is.

The rationale behind the Wii one is definitely more suspect -- I am never excited by games which sort of assume you're dumb -- but I have really appreciated the presence of the Press Start screen when building out the different menu states for Wallace & Gromit on XBLA.

* Strong Bad for PC has the "Press A" screen from the Wii, though it says "click here," which is kind of hilarious to me in how sort of console-port it feels. Oh well. The team liked the art from that screen so they requested it not be cut from the PC version. I won that one with Wallace & Gromit, though, which will ship without the extraneous step of a Press Start screen on the PC release.

[Chris]

The Netherlands has a lot of tall, blonde people, so I can understand the confusion. Also, lots of bikes.

About Killzone 2: maybe you, Chris Remo, aren't enamored with a deliberately paced, tightly directed FPS experience, but if you invested early in the 10 year life cycle and don't own an Xbox because Christ you've already spent $600, there really aren't that many great shooters in this milieu on the system. Like, I get lost trying to get to the same Safeway I've shopped at for 5 years; I don't need a big open world experience to recreate what I'm used to. I don't want that sensation like I'm waiting for a bus in a city where I wasn't sure there was a bus line in my Video game. I do want to shoot the helmets off dudes who don't realize they're not completely behind their cover. Apples and oranges.

Yeah, that's fair. I'm not doing a traditional written review, so my reactions were just that--my own reactions. Pretty much all my opinions are the podcast are just my own opinions about games, as opposed to trying to do a balanced review that takes what different people might be looking for into account. I try to talk about games the same way I would with other people in person (which is what we're actually doing, of course). Just my own personal experience with Killzone 2 was not super exciting. I still expect a lot of people to like it, which is fine.

[James]

I don't know if the "press start" screens are required for certification purposes, but they do serve a function on game consoles which have account systems -- they're a great place to deposit players if you, for instance, sign out of your Xbox Live account mid-game.

An interesting point (and now that I think about it, I've encountered that when playing Left 4 Dead), but wouldn't it be possible to skip this stage when launching a game if the player is already signed in, reserving it purely for occasions when the player suddenly gets signed out, or launches without the appropriate account?

On the PS3 I don't believe it's possible to switch accounts without quitting the game (which might possibly be the result of in-game XMB not being an original feature). You can of course lose your connection with PSN, but in my experience that either leaves you in-game or throws you back to the previous menu. I wonder if the press start screens serve as much of a purpose on the PS3, or if they're just there for the sake of keeping things similar.

On a similar note, something else which irritates me, but which I fully understand the purpose of, is unskippable logos and legal tat when launching a game. What I find a bit bizarre is how they vary in their skipability. If one company is happy for you not to have to stare at their corporate stuff for a couple of seconds, why isn't another? Could that ever make a significant practical difference? I suppose it could be masking loading, but a main menu shouldn't take long to load (games that launch you straight into the action are an obvious exception). It seems kind of obnoxious. It's like making a reader sit down for a couple of seconds to stare at the author's name before he can enjoy his book of choice. He knows who wrote the damn book already!

[n0wak]

Companies spend a lot of money on proper logo bumpers and logo design. Certainly, making them easy to skip is an easy and trivial thing to do, but I have heard of occasions where they were told to remove that functionality specifically because the higher-ups spend money on them.

Additionally, with all the middleware and licensed technology, some licenses require them to be shown. It's particularly annoying in games that use, like, half a dozen different middleware renderers, physics engines, video codecs (looking at you Bink Video ), etc. It's like a perfect storm of logos. Highly annoying.

--

It's weird. The us vs them culture that I see in regards to some negative reviews for Killzone 2 (the comment thread on Tom Chick's review is particularly mind-numbing) is making me want to play the game even less than the negative reviews themselves. I'm curious about this game, even if it's not my cup of tea, just to see what they do with it, but the entire nerdstorm around it makes me want to avoid it despite what the developer ever did. I guess I'm just cynical and jaded.

[elmuerte]

I don't know if the "press start" screens are required for certification purposes, but they do serve a function on game consoles which have account systems -- they're a great place to deposit players if you, for instance, sign out of your Xbox Live account mid-game.

If all of your menu systems in-game are contingent on the player having an account -- for instance, if all of the save/load screens are for saves tied to your gamertag, if the achievements and leaderboards are tied to your gamertag, etc -- it's far far easier and more clean to just drop the player on a separate, simple screen outside of all of that if they sign out. The other option is to create alternate states for all of your menus which only enable offline functionality, have messages all over the place about how you can't save while logged out, can't access leaderboards, etc.

That all sounds logical. But you haven't convinced me that it's the best approach to solve these (self imposed) issues. A context sensitive menu screen sounds much better than a "press start" screen.

When you're already completely logged in, then there's is absolutely no reason to show this "press start" screen. Also, the "press start" screen sounds like a terrible place for a welcome lobby/account management.

[James]

Companies spend a lot of money on proper logo bumpers and logo design. Certainly, making them easy to skip is an easy and trivial thing to do, but I have heard of occasions where they were told to remove that functionality specifically because the higher-ups spend money on them.

Additionally, with all the middleware and licensed technology, some licenses require them to be shown. It's particularly annoying in games that use, like, half a dozen different middleware renderers, physics engines, video codecs (looking at you Bink Video ), etc. It's like a perfect storm of logos. Highly annoying.

On one level I understand this, but on another level I don't see how it really leads to any tangible gains. Perhaps it's just a pride thing. I can't imagine many end consumers are going to be procuring the services of a middleware company, and those who do employ middleware technology almost certainly learn about it elsewhere. I suppose you could make an argument for that particular technology being a selling point, and that selling point driving sales of further games using it, but I don't think that point is strong enough to sustain the degree to which we're forced to look at the logos.

How about having the logos unskippable whilst installing or when the game is first launched, and skippable thereafter? You can't guarantee everyone will be paying attention, of course, but most people ignore that stuff, anyway.

[Jake]

That all sounds logical. But you haven't convinced me that it's the best approach to solve these (self imposed) issues. A context sensitive menu screen sounds much better than a "press start" screen.

When you're already completely logged in, then there's is absolutely no reason to show this "press start" screen. Also, the "press start" screen sounds like a terrible place for a welcome lobby/account management.

A lot of ideal solutions "sound better" than a practical solution. I wish that I and all other game menu makers had infinite resources. Games would probably look and feel a lot better and have better flow all around. Sadly, game menus and user accessibility and flow through them has only recently started to get any attention, and still not as much as it should.

Menus are often the first and last thing you interact with in a play session, so half-assing them seems dumb, but they're definitely not the core reason someone buys your game, so they often don't get the money or time they deserve.

As for it being a "terrible place" for that, I don't follow. At least on the 360, it's basically just the logo of the game you're playing, over which the 360 draws a big blade or pop-up with the system UI for account management.

Ideally it would obviously be nice to have custom built and scripted menu modes for any and all fringe states the game could be in, but it's not always achievable with the time and resources available. The problem with an "ideal" anything is that practically it often doesn't help anything. For instance, should an indie gamemaker spend time and money coding up a bunch of conditionals for their menus in case you stupidly decide to sign out of live in the middle of a game, or should they drop in the few lines of code which will just kick a signed-out account to the start screen, and devote more time to the rest of their game?

[Nachimir]

Am I the only person who kind of likes Press Start screens, even though I understand exactly how useless and unnecessary they are?

They can do a nice job of setting the tone for a session while I'm in the kitchen making tea, then settling into the sofa That doesn't need "press start", but as a convention it makes me a little nostalgic for all the console gaming I've done going back to the NES.

That said, I *really* like the way Braid handled it, by silhouetting the character and just having the title dissolve when you move.

[The Devil Tesla]

On Killzone 2: Okay, I haven't played it, but it sounds like the kind of game (AI heavy combat oriented shooter) that would suck on lower difficulties and become actually really awesome when it's a challenge (it's a totally different kind of game but Dead Space was like this). Maybe it's better if you make it harder, Remo?

Secondly, I can't find the "hooray for you" think on youtube. Do I want to see it?