Piece of Silence *early spoiler*

[Chris]

I agree with Marek. What's he's saying about vision and concept-before-gameplay is exactly what I kept trying to get across over at the AG forums over the last week or so.

[RLacey]

I'm going to come across as a terrible suck-up, but I'd be lying if I didn't say that I now agree wholly with Marek on this one.

[Duncan]

Yeah I agree with Marek too. I think one of the problems is that mediocre adventure games aren't any worse than mediocre adventure games of old, but

without the Sierra/LucasArts or simply any better games to distract from those the adventure game community is forced to pay more attention and are taking what they can get. I really think that if Syberia had been released ten years ago it would be about as well remembered and appreciated as Amerzone is today.

[RLacey]

I don't get the appeal of Syberia. I played the demo and was completely bored, but maybe I'll give it another go sometime. I am, of course, now waiting for Trep to tell me how wrong I am ...

[Wormsie]

I wrote something like that a while ago (not at all as insightful), so I definitely agree with Marek.

Also, Syberia is utter garbage.

[Marek]

I think Syberia is the opposite of many other adventure games today in that it had a concept first and a game second.

Syberia had a unified creative direction led by Benoit Sokal, who drew concept art for everything that went into the game. That's led to a strong visual identity, and (the potential for-) a really good atmosphere. Syberia definitely has a soul somewhere in there. The trouble is, of course, that Syberia lacked good gameplay and little things that keep the player interested. So I think the first step in its development was done really really well (developing the world and the concept) but the second step was done not so well at all.

I think 95% of the games get step 1 all wrong. Some of them also get step 2 wrong. But few games get step 1 right, which is why Syberia stands out even though it's not really all that great.

I enjoyed Syberia though, despite its flaws and I hope that on his next two games (Lost Paradise and Aquarica) Sokal will work collaborate with a gameplay designer.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

I agree. Syberia got under my skin emotionally, and that had more to do with me than the game, yet the game in that sense was a catalyst. However, I hated the lack of things to do in the gameworld, it so damn stingy! If only it had more interactivity and details as per actual gameplay.

[Wormsie]

Syberia also had the stupidest dialogue ever.

[Fairygdmther]

I'm gonna stick my neck out here, so fasten your seatbelts, it's gonna be a bumpy ride!

[rant]

#1 - You guys sound like a jaded bunch of kids, who won't play unless everybody plays by your rules. You want innovation, but unless it's the specific kind you choose, it's no good, it's garbage. Benoit Sokal gave us in Syberia 1 & 2 a truly beautiful, artistic game, with a story that wasn't a cliché, (no save the princess, no Atlantis, Egypt, Mayan cultures), and made it accessible to all (even non-adventurers could play without getting stuck with impossible puzzles). Ah, but it didn't fit your mold of innovation, so it sucks! I'm not saying that you had to like it, but jeez, guys, give him some credit here.

#2 - Regardless of what the past may have been, the current adventure game player, by demographics, is not the 14-24 yr old male - au contraire! It is the 35+ yr old female, who may never have played any commercial games before buying this adventure game. I think we can all agree that TAC (The Adventure Company) releases mostly mediocre games. However, they do a few things right. For one, they recognize that the numbers playing adventures need to grow, and two, that a pretty looking game on the shelves, with a familiar type theme (Atlantis, Egypt) will grab the impulse buyer, and if it is an easy game that works well, may pull this gamer into adventures. No one who is really hooked will stick with the run-of-the-mill TAC games, but bringing in more gamers means more money to develop other games.

#3 - Innovation, at least the kind that many of you are demanding, needs money - huge amounts of money. No company is willing to take that risk unless there is reasonably good chance of success of huge sales. Since the average adv gamer (see #2) doesn't want action and/or timed sequences in their games, the likelihood of this direction in development is minimal. Good storytelling means hiring writers - adv games can't afford that, so they go with the tried and true stories that everyone knows anyway.

#4 - Marketing for adv games is abysmal! Since the premise is that adv games are non-violent exploration/puzzle games, why not use that in the advertising? Market them as family fare, where people can play them with their kids. Make the games with easy and difficult settings so that they would be opened up to more players. Utilize the fact that adv games have a longer shelf life than other genres (they're essentially timeless), so that older games get re-released, and are available to make money for longer (read that in years) for the developers. Perhaps if they realized that, and the backers who provide the funds knew that, then more money would be available for better game development.

#5 - Yes, adv games need a shot in the arm. They need to come up to the standards of the other genres, but they can't do that without the essential ingredient - money. Graphics have definitely improved, and 3D is coming in slowly, but at the expense of other parts of the game (story, gameplay, etc.). Instead of being so critical of adv games, even if it seems cool to do so, try being constructive, and help them to find ways to attract more adv game players and attract more revenue.

[/rant]

FGM

[Jake]

Instead of being so critical of adv games, even if it seems cool to do so, try being constructive, and help them to find ways to attract more adv game players and attract more revenue.

FGM you rule, but don't be patronizing please!

[Duncan]

#1 - You guys sound like a jaded bunch of kids, who won't play unless everybody plays by your rules.

I'd take offense at that if I weren't, well, a jaded kid. So good call.

You want innovation, but unless it's the specific kind you choose, it's no good, it's garbage. Benoit Sokal gave us in Syberia 1 & 2 a truly beautiful, artistic game, with a story that wasn't a cliché, (no save the princess, no Atlantis, Egypt, Mayan cultures), and made it accessible to all (even non-adventurers could play without getting stuck with impossible puzzles). Ah, but it didn't fit your mold of innovation, so it sucks! I'm not saying that you had to like it, but jeez, guys, give him some credit here.

What? I don't see Syberia as being particularly innovative, to be honest. The criteria you list seems to suggest it's being innovative by not being bad. It looked good, the story wasn't cliched, and it wasn't difficult. I don't disagree with that at all, but it isn't innovation. And it wasn't because it didn't innovate that I didn't like it, and I don't think anyone here considers innovation the ultimate measure of quality. I think Syberia is a very traditional and conservative adventure. I don't fault Sokal for his intentions, as Marek said, he clearly had an artistic vision and he followed through with it. I think that he wasn't so impressive when it came to the game part.

#2 - Regardless of what the past may have been, the current adventure game player, by demographics, is not the 14-24 yr old male - au contraire! It is the 35+ yr old female, who may never have played any commercial games before buying this adventure game.

You're right about the past - it's hardly the manifest destiny of the adventure game to appeal to 35+ females. Honestly, it's great that the adventure game has found a new audience, but I don't think it should be ignored that they lost another one.

[vimes]

#3 - Innovation, at least the kind that many of you are demanding, needs money - huge amounts of money. No company is willing to take that risk unless there is reasonably good chance of success of huge sales. Since the average adv gamer (see #2) doesn't want action and/or timed sequences in their games, the likelihood of this direction in development is minimal. Good storytelling means hiring writers - adv games can't afford that, so they go with the tried and true stories that everyone knows anyway.

There is here something I'm not quite getting : if producers can't hire writers, can't buy some good 3D engines, can't broaden their audience by opening the adventure gameplay to other genre, what will they use to make a game?

It seems to me that what you want aren't adventure games that are good but just ... adventure games. Sounds strange to me

#4 - Marketing for adv games is abysmal! Since the premise is that adv games are non-violent exploration/puzzle games, why not use that in the advertising? Market them as family fare, where people can play them with their kids. Make the games with easy and difficult settings so that they would be opened up to more players.

I never realized that adventure games could be played in such a way and they DO have the potential o gather player around a single game

... except that this is not a perfect world - is it ? - : as a kid and moreover as a teenageer, I wasn't willing to play with my parents : brothers, sisters and friends were welcome but parents? No. And I feel like I'm not the only one in this case. It's a rebellion thing , I think.

Utilize the fact that adv games have a longer shelf life than other genres (they're essentially timeless), so that older games get re-released, and are available to make money for longer (read that in years) for the developers. Perhaps if they realized that, and the backers who provide the funds knew that, then more money would be available for better game development.

Adventure games 'more timeless' that any other genre ? How come ?

Anyway, I don't think there is a market for the re-released adventure games outside the small community of fans who can find the goodness of the game hidden behind old graphs. I might be of those - even if I wouldn't buy 'lazy' re-released games- but I'm not convinced that gamers bred with GTA3, Halo or HL2 would do such a move and the ones old enough to make the effort don't necessarily play games anymore.

Graphics have definitely improved, and 3D is coming in slowly, but at the expense of other parts of the game (story, gameplay, etc.).

I don't understand why Full-3D adventure games haven't flourish the last 3 years: there are some good 3D engines licensed under GNU Lesser Public License - like Ogre - that display quitegood graphs while allowing an adventure game gameplay. No money needed and time saved for real development.

[MrHoatzin]

I think without a doubt that the best adventure game of the past five or so years is Peasant's Quest (soon to be a movie!).

All other games were shit.

[Fairygdmther]

FGM you rule, but don't be patronizing please!

Jake, that wasn't aimed at you, believe me, but at some of the "me, too" posters.

FGM

[Fairygdmther]

Duncan, by the jaded comments, I would have to say that adv gaming has already "lost" much of the 14-24 yr old males, because so many of them express the need for what is beyond the scope of adv gaming.

There is here something I'm not quite getting : if producers can't hire writers, can't buy some good 3D engines, can't broaden their audience by opening the adventure gameplay to other genre, what will they use to make a game?

It seems to me that what you want aren't adventure games that are good but just ... adventure games. Sounds strange to me

I never realized that adventure games could be played in such a way and they DO have the potential o gather player around a single game

... except that this is not a perfect world - is it ? - : as a kid and moreover as a teenageer, I wasn't willing to play with my parents : brothers, sisters and friends were welcome but parents? No. And I feel like I'm not the only one in this case. It's a rebellion thing , I think.

Adventure games 'more timeless' that any other genre ? How come ?

Anyway, I don't think there is a market for the re-released adventure games outside the small community of fans who can find the goodness of the game hidden behind old graphs. I might be of those - even if I wouldn't buy 'lazy' re-released games- but I'm not convinced that gamers bred with GTA3, Halo or HL2 would do such a move and the ones old enough to make the effort don't necessarily play games anymore.

I don't understand why Full-3D adventure games haven't flourish the last 3 years: there are some good 3D engines licensed under GNU Lesser Public License - like Ogre - that display quitegood graphs while allowing an adventure game gameplay. No money needed and time saved for real development.

Bold emphasis is mine -

First - it isn't what I want, but rather what we may have to settle for due to poor financial climate for adv games.

Second - I can't tell you how many posts I've read in other forums from parents who were able to reach their rebellious teens on the level of games only. It enabled them to bridge that gap, and gave them quality time together that was non-controversial for either.

Third - You are simply wrong about there being no market for re-released games. Sanitarium and MI 1&2 were recently re-released and have sold a great many, possibly even doubling their initial sales.

Fourth - regarding the age of the players making up the group wanting re-release - once again, you are simply wrong - go to some other forums and you'll see a wider age range, and that many, many are looking for older games that they missed first time around. And this addresses your question of timelessness. When the new gamer discovers adv games, they go looking for the older games like the ones they like best.

As far as the graphics engines, there are some indie developers who are using these, but the best engines cost big bucks, though it can cost even more to develop your own engine for a game. The only way to compete with the other genres is to have the same kind of budget as they do, and adv games can't get that because they don't initially sell big like the FPS or RPG games.

FGM

[Fairygdmther]

I think without a doubt that the best adventure game of the past five or so years is Peasant's Quest (soon to be a movie!).

All other games were shit.

Aw, c'mon Kingz, don't hold back, don't be shy, tell us what you really think!

FGM

[MrHoatzin]

Aw, c'mon Kingz, don't hold back, don't be shy, tell us what you really think!

FGM

[vimes]

Second - I can't tell you how many posts I've read in other forums from parents who were able to reach their rebellious teens on the level of games only. It enabled them to bridge that gap, and gave them quality time together that was non-controversial for either.

Third - You are simply wrong about there being no market for re-released games. Sanitarium and MI 1&2 were recently re-released and have sold a great many, possibly even doubling their initial sales.

Okay, I'd have to admit my ignorance regarding these points, my opinion was just the intuition I got.

Fourth - regarding the age of the players making up the group wanting re-release - once again, you are simply wrong - go to some other forums and you'll see a wider age range, and that many, many are looking for older games that they missed first time around. And this addresses your question of timelessness. When the new gamer discovers adv games, they go looking for the older games like the ones they like best.

You might be right but this brings forward two other problems :

- these people go to the oldies because new ones aren't that good. So, it's not as if they have the choice I don't know if I'm clear there.

- both gaming and creating community are inhibited with the respect and fear of ancestors : such games as Monkey Island, DOTT or even Myst are like some intangible parent figures who shake a finger at us from thousands of years ago and says, " Do it--get away from The Path we dug! Do it and We'll fuckin´ spank you!"...

Tim Schafer may have the guts to go for a Platform-like genre with Psychonauts but he is a bit by himself these days.

As far as the graphics engines, there are some indie developers who are using these, but the best engines cost big bucks, though it can cost even more to develop your own engine for a game.

Yeah but OGRE is under GPL license. You know, it's like...free.

[Erkki]

Yeah but OGRE is under GPL license. You know, it's like...free.

OGRE is only a graphics engine though, it's probably not even half of an entire game engine.

[vimes]

OGRE is only a graphics engine though, it's probably not even half of an entire game engine.

I know : I used it last year in a VR Project and I'm going to dive in it in the next 6 months. It's not much but when you're focusing on the software features - rather than hardcore coding - having a good 3D engine already done helps A LOT.

[Fairygdmther]

Okay, I'd have to admit my ignorance regarding these points, my opinion was just the intuition I got.

You might be right but this brings forward two other problems :

- these people go to the oldies because new ones aren't that good. So, it's not as if they have the choice I don't know if I'm clear there.

- both gaming and creating community are inhibited with the respect and fear of ancestors : such games as Monkey Island, DOTT or even Myst are like some intangible parent figures who shake a finger at us from thousands of years ago and says, " Do it--get away from The Path we dug! Do it and We'll fuckin´ spank you!"...

Tim Schafer may have the guts to go for a Platform-like genre with Psychonauts but he is a bit by himself these days.

Yeah but OGRE is under GPL license. You know, it's like...free.

That's not the only reason - if you're new to the genre, and many of the older (35+, not necessarily old like I am) players weren't brought up on gaming, then you do it because you want to catch up, and play the ones that others rave about. As a kid, you probably devoured games, I didn't start on adv games till 2001 - I've got a lot of catching up to do. Last year on eBay, I bought more than 60 old games from my tax refund, not because the newer ones were not to my liking, but because I wanted to play some of the older ones, many of which I still couldn't get, without paying huge bucks because they're so scarce. I would love to see Morpheus re-released, or Obsidian, which I did get. I'm still missing some of the Tex Murphy, and one of the Laura Bow games.

I disagree that the blockage to change is coming from respect of the older games. It is coming from, IMHO, money issues and resistance from the dyed-in-the-wool adv gamers who don't want the same kind of changes that your age group does.

I'm not familiar with OGRE, but is it a quality graphics engine like the one used in HL2? I would doubt that it could be and be free.

FGM

[vimes]

I'm not familiar with OGRE, but is it a quality graphics engine like the one used in HL2? I would doubt that it could be and be free.

Okay, here, I'm not even getting close to the fantasy of adventure games with up-do-date 3D Engine.

I'm just taking the 3D engine to enlight that adventure goes suddently from the main vector of innovation in the mid-late 90's to a passiv genre in the 2k years.

When you look at the last 8 years, you can see that each genre as survived a huge failure - one of those awaited games which didn't met their public - but none of them really stopped the evolution of its genre.

Now look at adventure games : no great failure but a slow descent to oblivion. It took the community 4 years to accept the new point&click brought by Full Throttle, 3 years from the achievment of 3D as a viable technology for creators to begin thinking about applying it to this genre and I won't talk about web-based application that finally but shortly find its way thanks to Sam & Max 2 in 2004.

Here is my point - which I realize now is more than slightly off the topic -, adventure games can mostly blame themselves for their failure : they brought great advancements for years but their creators neglicted new advancements that didn't come from their own and so, missed a freaking lot of opportunities to evolve... and it is no wonder that after year of slumbers and lazyness, Grim Fandango and The Last Train didn't sold well.

Now, regarding the Amerzone and Syberia, they don't represent to me an evolution because they just go back to a less interactive gameplay something more like Phantasmagoria. It's not bad, it's just... not going forward.

[Wormsie]

I don't know why someone would play some kind of games because they are +35 and female. Why not say "these days adventure games are played by people who like Penguin Books -paperbacks, crossword puzzles and academic art"?

[Duncan]

Duncan, by the jaded comments, I would have to say that adv gaming has already "lost" much of the 14-24 yr old males, because so many of them express the need for what is beyond the scope of adv gaming.

I don't think that's the reason at all. With the death of LucasArts and possibly Sierra, adventure games that appeal(ed) to 14-24 year old males aren't being made anymore. I doubt they gave up on the genre (if they did) because they were frustrated at a lack of progression and innovation, as you keep saying. The most frustrating thing - to me, at least - is a lack of basic quality.

[Fairygdmther]

I don't know why someone would play some kind of games because they are +35 and female. Why not say "these days adventure games are played by people who like Penguin Books -paperbacks, crossword puzzles and academic art"?

Now this is a generalization, but imagine a 38 yr old woman, her kids are at least high school age or older, she's been working in an office where she's gotten comfortable with PC's, and now has some leisure time to play. She's played the online casual games, but is looking for more. A friend shows her Syberia, and she's wowed by the beautiful scenery, and didn't even know this kind of game existed. The only games she's seen before were the ones her kids played, and they were nothing like this, they were shooters, sports games, racing games, etc. There's a woman protagonist, a modern woman, not a scantily dressed, impossibly endowed woman, but one like she might know from her office. She can identify with this woman. She doesn't know what to do, but this friend helps her get started, shows her how to get a w/t if she gets stuck, and shows her the forums (probably GB), and she's now an adv gamer.

As far as her other interests, she probably reads Danielle Steele, does the crossword from the daily paper, and watches a few sitcoms on TV, like Friends, Seinfeld, etc. Now this is a portrayal, and not a real person, but there are many like her here in the US.

Does this still seem so far-fetched to you? Can you not see this woman?

FGM