Kennedy Assasination: The latest Video Game 'outrage'.

[Jake]

... I'm confused.

You're not actually confused. You're just being argumentative to listen to yourself talk.

[Jaero]

You're not actually confused. You're just being argumentative to listen to yourself talk.

Tell me, what value does this game have? Could you not accomplish the object of proving that Oswald was the only assassin by broadcasting the simulation on TV, or in a film, so that the viewers could remain spectators, instead of assuming the role of an assasin of one of the country's most beloved Presidents? This was done actually the other day, on the History Channel. Why the fuck they felt compelled to release a game for this purpose, I don't know - probably a sick, sad ploy to earn money.

If I join the military, I'm going to be trained to kill, to be sure. However, that does not require the government to fly me to fucking Guantanamo Bay for target practice at the expense of some poor unlawfully jailed piece of shit.

Ceasar and Alexander the Great have been the subject, or have been included in games before, such as in RTS games like Age of Empires. Put them in a shooter and make them the targets though, and you're right, it wouldn't be so profound. Why? Because they're fucking obscure old legends. Nobody knew them! Kennedy didn't live thousands of years ago! Many people today still remember him - in fact I would give a limb to have him in office, to hear his inaugural speech again, but that's another topic.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Their next game will be Kill As Many World Trade Center People As You Can For Only $9.99! You will be provided a commercial airline pilot's license, a schedule of the actual flights, and even the names of real, key people who will die in the process.

[ThunderPeel2001]

You're not actually confused. You're just being argumentative to listen to yourself talk.

Oh, do sod off. I actually think this is an interesting topic of discussion and it's nice to be able to discuss it outside reactionary media.

There's been games like Soldier Of Fortune where you were awarded points for killing Iraqi civilians in the most brutal and explicit way the technology would allow at the time.

The programmers of JFK: Reloaded have just taken a common trait of computer games a single step further, a step that was most likely inevitable. If this step was so clearly in bad taste then it makes you wonder what separates it from games like GTA where you can (must I say it?) have sex with prostitutes and then kill them to get your money back.

Just as GTA hides behind "hey, it's not real, y'know" and CoD hides behind "hey, this is historically correct, y'know", both are really just games that allow you to go around killing people. We all know that, so let's not pretend that it's not satisfying to go on a killing rampage in both, ok?

The only difference between taking a sniper-rifle to someone's head in Half Life 2 and taking a sniper-rifle to Kennedy's head in JFK: Reloaded is the abreiviation "JFK" in the title.

Is it just the fact that we're now "killing" a recent, well liked, historical figure the problem (instead of unknown people in Vietnam)?

Anyways, the only possible redeeming fact surrounding this game is the "mystery" of JFK's death (and that's already been exploited to hell and back in every other medium). Not much to hide behind, really.

Whether you like it or not, I am confused!

Question: Who has actually played it?

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Question: Who has actually played it?

Why don't you play it?

[ThunderPeel2001]

Why don't you play it?

Tips for game. Top of page. Written by me.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Ah. I don't like you that much, then.

[jp-30]

Tips for game. Top of page. Written by me.

So you can show outrage at WW2 based FPS's claiming they're abhorrent for desecrating the memory of those who fought and died in wars, but when it's bought down to a one-one-one level you can cast all that aside and support a game glorifying the assassination of a real individual?

[Lindset]

I'll just skip all of the ethical talk, and ask one question. How the hell are they going to make this game fun? I'll eat my dog* if this game turns out to be fun

* By dog, I mean hat.

[Erkki]

I tried the demo... this is BARELY a game at all. You stand in a window, able to turn around and aim and it says in the full version you can actually fire bullets. In the demo you just watch the motorcade drive by.

This is obviously a cheap expoitation.

[Jaero]

Poor ThunderPeel, just wants to make his $9.99 seem justified. Sad, sad fool. He should really read my last post again, and try... TRY to consider that he's wrong. But then again, the rest of America is just upset about this for no good reason. He's defending it for a GOOD reason. ThunderPeel, for your next trick, can you perform a great flourish which justifies the existance of the game Postal? I'd pay to hear that one.

[Erkki]

THIS WAS ON THE LOCAL NEWS TODAY!

I can't remember when a game was covered by the TV news here last time. If ever. It was the last bit though, they always have a 'curiosity' or whatchacallthem after the sports news.

It showed brief interviews with Ted Kennedy I think and the game's creator or something. Didn't catch all they said, I was in the other room.

[jp-30]

A CBS based news story was aired last night in New Zealand on the evening news. I assume the same piece was picked up globally.

[Fum]

I think the bottom line here that we ALL can agree on is that this is exploitation, and the developers are just trying to stir up controversy to get some attention, and very likely some quick cash. ThunderPeel2001 is, as I see it, merely questioning if this is really stands alone as being as bad as some people are making it out to be. And I think he's made some legitimate points, and I don't think it's as simple as him being right or wrong.

By the way, Postal 1 & 2 were fun, weather any of you'll admit it or not.

(And Jake, have you admitted to yourself yet that your friend is crazy? ...Sorry, I just don't like it when I feel I made a good point, and the person my point was directed towards ignores it and moves on to an easier debate. Not that this has happened to me before, so I actaully just now learned that I don't like it when this happens...contrary to what I implied.... )

[ThunderPeel2001]

Poor ThunderPeel, just wants to make his $9.99 seem justified. Sad, sad fool. He should really read my last post again, and try... TRY to consider that he's wrong. But then again, the rest of America is just upset about this for no good reason. He's defending it for a GOOD reason. ThunderPeel, for your next trick, can you perform a great flourish which justifies the existance of the game Postal? I'd pay to hear that one.

Hmmm... When exactly have I defended this game?

- "Just to re-iterate incase I'm not coming across clearly; JFK Reloaded is definitely expoitation!"

- "It's offensive, it's exploitative"

- "the only possible redeeming fact surrounding this game is the "mystery" of JFK's death. Not much to hide behind, really."

- "It is of VERY little value in terms of gameplay"

Why on earth you think I want to make my $9.99 purchase justified to bunch of strangers on a game forum is beyond me! I quite happily spent money on this "game" so I could make my own mind up. If you're interested in what I think of it you should read some of my earlier posts.

So you can show outrage at WW2 based FPS's claiming they're abhorrent for desecrating the memory of those who fought and died in wars, but when it's bought down to a one-one-one level you can cast all that aside and support a game glorifying the assassination of a real individual?

Huh? Here's what YOU said about this game:

- "Me, I'm totally "meh" over the outrage of the whole thing. I mean it's fine to simulate wars in video games and kill thousands of virtual people, so I guess this isn't a whole lot different"

Here's what I said about WW2 based FPS's:

- "This is definitely murky waters, but it's no different that the "ultra realistic" WW2 and Vietnam first-person shooters out there."

- "they're exploiting the deaths of millions of people. But for the sake of entertainment we all turn a blind eye (myself included)"

- "let's not pretend that it's not satisfying to go on a killing rampage in Call of Duty and GTA"

When have I ever shown "outrage"? It seems like we were both making the same point... or have you forgotten what you wrote?

I'm off to play Call Of Duty! (Maybe I'll squeeze in a few goes of JFK Reloaded along the way, too!)

[nsps]

Thunderpeel wrote:

One death is a travesty, a thousand is statistic? Just because we don't see the name and rank of the tons of NPC's killed in the Omaha Landings level of Medal of Honour makes it ok?

I find both this, and the JFK game, similar, personally.

Francois Truffaut once said that it wasn’t possible to make a real antiwar film, because the goings on are exciting. It’s even harder to make an antiwar game, since the player has to be engaged and having fun for it to be a good film. Despite this, combat simulation games can offer considerably more insight in the enjoyment they offer than this JFK game. Whatever side you fight on, you learn a good deal about the complicated work of men in uniform. While you have fun and never experience the true horrors, good simulations can offer insight (for those who are looking) into both military strategy and sacrifice.

By the exact same principle of fun and enjoyment, the JFK game is utterly reprehensible. The enjoyment is based on shooting Kennedy, nothing else.

There is currently a very unlikely theory, which I’ve only heard about third hand and am in no position to argue for or against, that the government had bombs that blew up the World Trade Towers on Sept. 11. To prove the theory wrong, I could use science to show how hot fuel and other elements could lead to the fall. Or I could make a flight simulation game in which the object is to fly into the towers and create the most amount of damage. The most points come when both towers collapse. This is more analogous to “JFK Reloaded” than any combat game.

[spaceship789]

Theres always the argument that shooting games desensitize you, and make the impressionable kids more likely to be able to take the steps to killing someone, taking pot shots in their schoolyard, assasinating the president etc.

But while desensitization is one thing, you can't debate that the emotional effect that the existence of this game has on those for whom JFKs assasination was the most greivous moment of their lives. And you could have easily predicted the outrage. (You need to watch more docos if you forget how half the country reacted to the event).

Thunderpeel: stop trolling

[Fum]

Thunderpeel: stop trolling

Oh, come on...how can you guys pick on Thunderpeel when he's got such a cute Avatar? Honestly....

[Intrepid Homoludens]

I finally got myself to download and play the demo.

I felt sick.

[ThunderPeel2001]

By the exact same principle of fun and enjoyment, the JFK game is utterly reprehensible. The enjoyment is based on shooting Kennedy, nothing else.

I agree.

The enjoyment though, if there is any, comes from

a) Pulling off a precise assassination -- NOT neccessarily of Kennedy (as I seriously doubt anybody who buys this game is old enough to actually "hate" him for any reason). A simple assassination a la [/i] Silent Scope, Counter Strike etc. and

Having a piece of history modelling in 3D space to see for yourself what actually happened.

Of course, if was the intended point of the "game" (and not just a cash-in) they simply could have just allowed people to see what actually happened on November 22nd 1963, which to me, would have been much more interesting.

There is currently a very unlikely theory, which I’ve only heard about third hand and am in no position to argue for or against, that the government had bombs that blew up the World Trade Towers on Sept. 11. To prove the theory wrong, I could use science to show how hot fuel and other elements could lead to the fall. Or I could make a flight simulation game in which the object is to fly into the towers and create the most amount of damage. The most points come when both towers collapse. This is more analogous to “JFK Reloaded” than any combat game.

Again, I completely agree. Of course nobody (sane) doubts what happened on 9/11. JFK's assassination is unique in its mystery that still fascinates millions of people (myself included).

For anyone who is actually interested in the truth, here's what most likely happened:

Firstly, just about everything in the movie JFK was bullshit, sadly (it was a most excellent film aside from that!).

Secondly, a man called Dale Myers spent something like 7 years of his life remodelling the entire senario in 3D in an attempt to find out exactly what happened. To do this he looked at all the home-films that captured what happened, blueprints of the buildings and still photographs and modelled EXACTLY what happened. Every movement, turn, wave, twist of the body, every second.

When it was all precisely modelled it was very easy to see that the "magic bullet" in JFK was bullshit!

This is what they claim:

But Dale Myer's video conclusively proved that given the placement of the seats (JFK was raised higher than Connaly) and their relative positions at the time of the second gunshot, that the wounds are VERY consistent!

If you'd like to know more keep an eye out for ABC's documentary "JFK: Beyond Conspiracy". It pretty much debunks every myth you've ever heard about JFK's death.

Dale Myer's site: http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/intro.htm

Excellent site: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

The Flaws in "JFK": http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jfkmovie.htm

[Jaero]

Mr. Peel, sadly for the effort you put into your last post, no one here is disputing the "proof" that the game offers up. No one is saying there was or wasn't a conspiracy - that really isn't the topic at hand. I don't need to play a game, and through Oswald's eyes take one of the many shots heard round the world to be able to draw the conclusion that the creators want me to. I can see it on the History channel, and many other documentaries. In fact, I did just this, as I have noted multiple times - the program which used they exact same technology, renders, and 'proof' that comes in this cold-hearted poor excuse to turn a profit.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

As simulation for historical research and educational purposes JFK Reloaded has some merit. It could have been pitched as that. It could have been done in a more neutral manner, with no sensationalistic bullsh!t attached. But Traffic utterly fucked it up by promoting it as some glorified carnival game: Blow the brains out of a highly respected world leader, again and again, and win a prize!!

This is no different from those people who grabbed debris off the World Trade Center site after the attack and tried selling them on Ebay, except in this case it's worse as Traffic is pimping their ware behind the mask of 'research and education'.

Yeah. Pathetic piece of marketing trash at the expense of many people, not just the one who died, but also his family and countless others who looked up to him, admired him (as I do). Just.....trash. Traffic may now be raking in the money and attracting the attention of game publishers, but in the end, that's all they have going for them, the only thing they can shove in their empty holes where their souls used to be. Money.

That's my final word on this thing, as I leave this thread with Clive Thomspon's take on the game:

Video Game Based on Shooting JFK

National Public Radio audio file, 11/24/04

The much-debated video game "JFK Reloaded" allows players to reenact President John F. Kennedy's assassination. Critics are outraged. The game's developers say it's educational and meant in part to debunk conspiracy theories. Clive Thompson of Slate offers a review.

I transcribed a good portion of the audio file:

...so, as a physics lesson, it's terrific! But as an emotional experience? It's nauseating.

I play a lot of blook soaked shoot-em-up games, normally the violence really doesn't bother me because it's so cartoonish. It's like a Quentin Tarantino movie. But JFK Reloaded is different. You're not shooting abstract enemies, you're shooting genuine individuals. When you peer through the rifle scope you can immediately recognize the faces of the President and Jackie Kennedy. These are real people who were really wounded or killed. One of the passengers in the limo is Nelly Connelly, the wife of the former Texas governer John Connelly. She's still alive today.

So when I finally managed to kill JFK I wasn't triumphant. I was horrified.

The problem is the game wants you to pretend the assassination is just a science experiment. It wants you to compartmentalize things. But it's hard to do that, and I'm not sure you'd want to. What's more, the game is open ended. You can shoot police officers. You can shoot Jackie Kennedy. The game designers are even offering a $100,000 prize to whoever gets the highest score.

Now, I'm not opposed to the idea of games recreating tragic historical events, but this one wasn't created with any dramatic power. There's no catharsis. It's just physics.

After about an hour of playing my score was impressive, I was pretty good at the game.

But I didn't feel like I've won anything.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Mr. Peel, sadly for the effort you put into your last post, no one here is disputing the "proof" that the game offers up. No one is saying there was or wasn't a conspiracy - that really isn't the topic at hand.

Next time I'll make sure I put "This Section Is Off-Topic" in bold just so you're not confused.

The program which used they exact same technology, renders, and 'proof' that comes in this cold-hearted poor excuse to turn a profit.

Yes, I think everyone is this thread has already agreed on that. Why you're telling me I have no idea.