Fashion

[clyde]

Fashion can be exciting, but it's hard to figure out where to start. Here we can talk about fashion!

 

This fellow seems to get it.

[itsamoose]

Moved this over from the feminism thread on the topic of fashion in the games industry:

 

I just don't get fashion critiques at all. It is such a stupid fucking thing to focus on and yet our society is completely inundated with magazines and television and so-called 'fashion experts' making claims about how wonderful person A looks and how terrible person B looks because of the combination of fabric and colors they decided to wear. It is just all so dumb and pointless.

 

If it's so dumb and pointless then then why do so many folks (especially women) seem to pay so much attention to it and talk about it as if it's a valuable form to appreciate?
I think that you may just need some foundational techniques that can help you start to enjoy fashion unless you want to just constantly reaffirm that it is stupid. Join us Zeusthecat.

 

You don't have to like it but it's definitely not pointless and it occupies the same sort of space as video games - part consumer culture, part art field, part skill people believe it's important to have. 

 

Personally I fall somewhere between those two points--I get it's something people enjoy and think is valuable, but I just can't bring myself to care that much about it.  My work outfit usually consists of some combination of jeans, shorts, khakis, button down shirts and T shirts.  Part of the reason for that is those are just the things I find when I go out to buy clothes, and somewhat related to my size.  I'm a little too big for department stores but too small for big and tall type places, and good luck finding anything but a couple pairs of shoes for a size 15 foot.  I do order some clothes online, but this usually involves a lot of returns and way more money than I want to spend.  Now I do work in the games industry, and there is a sense you should kind of dress down for those kinds of jobs, but it seems to be geared more toward dress casually and be comfortable than anything else.  I used to work with one guy who wore a full suit everyday, but it was more of a punk rock style (with a set of fingerless gloves, tie loosened, patterened shirt, etc) than the typical type of business suit.  It seems to me like some people are put off or in some way bothered by the typical outfit I tend to wear, but I just don't know what I could or should do differently.  I don't mean to make the thread about me or anything, I'm just hearing the criticism and at a loss on how to respond to it since it's not something I spend much time thinking about.

[Zeusthecat]

When I say it's stupid, I mean it's stupid that it has any bearing on how someone views another person. We live in a society where people are completely picked apart and judged just because of the the combination of colors and fabrics they choose to wear. When some celebrity event happens you see dozens of articles about how this person dressed shitty and wore clashing colors, or this person chose a bad outfit that made them look fat or this person wore the perfect outfit and was so beautiful because of it. It just seems like such a stupid and subjective thing to put so much focus on and to try to impose onto others. Sure fashion can be great and its cool dress up in things and wear outfits that you find visually appealing but as soon as you start going around making judgments about how other people look because they wear colors and fabrics that you don't find appealing, it becomes stupid.

 

Going back to the original discussion that started all of this, I think an article making fun of nerds for dressing like nerds is just as stupid as an article making fun of a celebrity for wearing unflattering clothes. It's especially weird considering one of the defining aspects of being a nerd always had to do with wearing nerdy clothes and my perception is that nerds have historically been picked on a lot for wearing nerdy clothes. Actually, what the hell was the point of that article? Just to make fun of nerds?

[Twig]

I wear what I wear to fit in more than anything else. I pick clothes that are physically comfortable and won't draw attention to myself. I'm also kinda fat, and very tall, so my choices are limited.

 

I hate that people place so much value on fashion. As long as someone doesn't look like a total slob, wearing pajamas to a press conference, I think it's perfectly fine. That article just came off as a complete dump on all these nerds for dressing imperfectly. Fuck off you shitty article. If you have a point to make, make that point. Don't just insult everyone one-by-one. Or if you're going to, at least try to be funny? Maybe.

[Reyturner]

I have enough self awareness the know that my gut reaction is informed by the fact that any unsolicited critiques I've ever received from strangers regarding my sartorial choices have always been delivered in the interest of humiliating me. To me, saying someone on the receiving end of this treatment has no grounds to take offense rings as hollow as an older brother holding his finger a half inch away from your eye insisting you can't get mad at him because he isn't touching you.

If it's so dumb and pointless then then why do so many folks (especially women) seem to pay so much attention to it and talk about it as if it's a valuable form to appreciate?

That's a fantastic question.

These are all my own hangups, but the idea I need to expend calories worrying about what my crew neck T-shirt with loose sleeves says about me as a person is so completely foreign. The idea that a man dressed as such talking in public somehow undermines his message or even outright insults the audience is just... no.

Change my mind!

[Twig]

Also, I think it's cool that for some people fashion is a passion. That's great! Even I like looking at cool outfits from time to time! It's just not something I'm ever going to allow my life to revolve around, unless something crazy happens.

 

But don't hold it against me that I'm not interested, just like I don't hold it against people that aren't interested in my passions.

[Coods]

I have an admiration for fashion as a means of visually complimenting how you feel inside as a person.

 

Still, I think the inherent narcissism (??) in fashion is offputting. I also find it troubling how explicitly commercial it all is, and can't ever bring myself to really splooge when it just makes me feel indulgent (i wish i could, though).

 

edit: i get a lot of clothes from target

[feelthedarkness]

Oh man. I got bit by a certain bug a few years ago that I've had to keep in check hard, because it's wallet busting. Kind of apocalypse punk refugee style. Luckily there is a community for everything, so there are high rollers selling stuff for 30% of cost after wearing it once.

 

Also, I sort of agree with the premise of the original article on what amounts to a huge double standard in expectations. A dude can get on a stage with an IRON ON T under a cheap blazer, but women are expected to be in gowns all the time. It's a privilege to choose not to care how the world sees you. Not to connect something as somewhat trivial as fashion to the issues of our times, but appearances matter, so for some choosing how you're perceived isn't a choice.

 

EDIT: I also got into this as an intersection with financial issues, like the real cost of low cost clothing. 

[Zeusthecat]

Also, I sort of agree with the premise of the original article on what amounts to a huge double standard in expectations. A dude can get on a stage with an IRON ON T under a cheap blazer, but women are expected to be in gowns all the time. It's a privilege to choose not to care how the world sees you. Not to connect something as somewhat trivial as fashion to the issues of our times, but appearances matter, so for some choosing how you're perceived isn't a choice.

 

I agree that this double standard exists and it's shitty and stupid. So we should just make sure everyone is getting shit on equally for their fashion choices? Doesn't that just exasperate the problem? 

[Apple Cider]

If you're a fat person who wear's women's clothes, I cannot stress how decent Old Navy's plus size section is to get some basic separates that you can turn into 1030438438484 outfits. I have about 4-5 slacks of different materials in black, charcoal gray, that I pair off with a lot of different tops of varying colors. It makes dressing for work a snap. It's a little utilitarian but all of it is pretty affordable and comfortable. Despite really loving pink, I actually choose mostly gray/black for work. Wearing all black is a harder style to pull off but mixing it up with grays is actually pretty hot.

[feelthedarkness]

I agree that this double standard exists and it's shitty and stupid. So we should just make sure everyone is getting shit on equally for their fashion choices? Doesn't that just exasperate the problem? 

 

Do you think there is a serious concern for all the white guys getting shit for their fashion and it adversely affecting their lives?

 

I think I spoke poorly, as I often do, but I DO think that if you're presenting or at a major media event/pitching millions of dollars in luxury goods you should try and punch it up a little stylewise. That the reality of just phoning it in seems nuts to me, and a greater expression of privilege than any snarky article.  

[Reyturner]

Old Navy's online store is also great if you're a fat, tall person who wears men's clothing (and can get clothes delivered from the US). Old Navy Canada's online store is just as useless as the brick and mortar ones unfortunately.

[Zeusthecat]

Do you think there is a serious concern for all the white guys getting shit for their fashion and it adversely affecting their lives?

 

I think I spoke poorly, as I often do, but I DO think that if you're presenting or at a major media event/pitching millions of dollars in luxury goods you should try and punch it up a little stylewise. That the reality of just phoning it in seems nuts to me, and a greater expression of privilege than any snarky article.  

 

No, I don't think it's a serious concern. It's just dumb and pointless. I guess I just don't see the point in this whole tit for tat stuff and it seems to do more harm than good when it comes to any meaningful change taking place.

 

What if this whole "punching up/punching down" thing actually involved punching? If you tried to solve a punching problem by just turning around and punching more people, do you really think people are gonna think "Oh man, getting punched kind of hurts, I better stop punching people."? I'm pretty sure they are going to double down and punch back even harder.

 

If people want to react to something that is unfair by turning around and doing that same thing to someone else, I guess that's fine if it makes them feel better. But I don't think that kind of approach is ever going to contribute to any positive change.

 

On the fashion side of things, I just like comfortable, loose fitting clothes. I can't stand having a lot of fabric making contact with my skin so I like to wear loose stuff that minimizes that contact. Cargo shorts, a t-shirt, and flip-flops are pretty much my go-to if I'm forced to change out of my pajamas. The world would be a better place if everyone was free to wear pajamas whenever they wanted.

[Badfinger]

I don't have any direct comments on fashion other than to say I know I'm not trendy, but what I will say is that humans have a low-level instinctive appreciation for pleasing physical appearance. Clothing fashion and its surroundings feel like a logical extension of that to me. While I don't get the fervor over Who Wore It Better, I understand why it might matter.

 

I am also self-conscious over my appearance. I'd like to look nice! I sometimes do, but my jeans don't really fit anymore and I hate jeans shopping so we're just goin' with it over here.

[Reyturner]

What if this whole "punching up/punching down" thing actually involved punching? If you tried to solve a punching problem by just turning around and punching more people, do you really think people are gonna think "Oh man, getting punched kind of hurts, I better stop punching people."? I'm pretty sure they are going to double down and punch back even harder.

 

I don't think you even need to expand the analogy. It is a privilege to be able to ignore fashion. I'm ecstatic that i'm able to work in tech as I've never had to wear a uniform or a suit professionally in 10 years.  I don't understand why I, and everyone else who works around me, being able to enjoy that freedom is the problem, and not that greater society simultaneously laments and upholds that crap to the benefit of the select few who have the resources and genetics to execute it best. 

[Apple Cider]

It is just interesting that tech and gaming sectors are a place where one can potentially ignore professionalism or fashion rules (both of which I DO have feelings about) are also largely male-dominated. It's not 100% correlative but I think it is interesting. I work in retail sector, interestingly, so a lot of people here look really great because they have to interface with vendors or clients and I work in the e-commerce department so it is a little more lax here (because none of us have to interface with anyone other than coworkers.) 

 

But I will say this, as someone who works in the fashion adjacent/ready to wear world: fashion is really interesting. 

[feelthedarkness]

when i said "punch it up" i was using the colloquialism of temporarily or quickly improving something. this script sucks, get sorkin to punch it up

[Zeusthecat]

It is just interesting that tech and gaming sectors are a place where one can potentially ignore professionalism or fashion rules (both of which I DO have feelings about) are also largely male-dominated. It's not 100% correlative but I think it is interesting. I work in retail sector, interestingly, so a lot of people here look really great because they have to interface with vendors or clients and I work in the e-commerce department so it is a little more lax here (because none of us have to interface with anyone other than coworkers.) 

 

But I will say this, as someone who works in the fashion adjacent/ready to wear world: fashion is really interesting. 

 

It really is an interesting observation. What's even weirder is that the industry I'm in is similarly dominated by males and has a lot of parallels to the tech industry but we still have to conform to the "business casual" dress code. This fashion stuff isn't even a factor in my world because the guidelines on what can and can't be worn are pretty narrow and there isn't much room for people to express themselves through clothing choices. The only time I've seen it come up is when someone randomly decided to wear a button-down shirt with a tie and everyone kept asking him if he was going to an interview or meeting with a client.

 

This discussion kind of makes me want to watch Zoolander. That movie made some clever observations about the fashion industry.

[Apple Cider]

Our dress code is less enforced in my area but to see the difference between what women can wear acceptably and what men can wear acceptably in the hotter weather is sort of a good reminder about what dress codes tend to enforce in a gendered way. It's not as much of a problem for me since I do not like showing my shoulders off in public or wear skirts but for everyone else, it feels really restrictive. 

[SuperBiasedMan]

I think presuming is a highly vapid or commercialised field is a bit of a shallow read. You could say the same about video games as someone from the outside looking in on just the biggest releases and the huge mobile games.

 

Fashion is a broad and diverse thing to consider that everyone takes part in just by the nature of choosing what you wear (unless your a full time nudist) and even aside from fashion, you will always be judged by nonsensical metrics anyway (race, gender, voice). You should realistically take charge of one that you have significant control of and project the impression of yourself that you want since we're not going to stop people make snap judgements entirely.

 

As has been said, opting out is still a decision and even your cheapest crappiest clothes are designed by someone who decides that it will have a certain look. There is no way of escaping that you're taking part. At best you can refrain from making it an active interest or engaging with it. Engaging with it also doesn't necessarily mean that you're buying expensive high end clothing beyond the reach of the average budget. My girlfriend is definitely interested in fashion enough to put together outfits and buy things specifically because they'll match with others. But by no means does she spend a lot on clothes at all. We were both unemployed for a long time and she still didn't feel very restricted about her clothing options (no more than our food options at least).

 

I feel weird and slightly hypocritical making this defence of fashion because I'm absolutely one of those people who's opted out. I have mostly clothes that my mother bought for me years ago or that I got from older brothers. I have bought some but I mostly go off gut instinct of what I like the look of and I don't even try them on. My office is super casual, so I don't even wear shirts or anything. I just wear jackets/hoodies and jeans. I also only have one pair of shoes, which is really foolish even for non fashion reasons. I am aware of the value of it but I just don't feel compelled to learn enough to elevate myself beyond generic lazy man. I feel bad about not caring though, knowing that plenty of people don't enjoy this privilege.

[Badfinger]

Our dress code is less enforced in my area but to see the difference between what women can wear acceptably and what men can wear acceptably in the hotter weather is sort of a good reminder about what dress codes tend to enforce in a gendered way. It's not as much of a problem for me since I do not like showing my shoulders off in public or wear skirts but for everyone else, it feels really restrictive. 

 

I don't particularly feel put upon, because in general it's much less of a hassle for me to dress in general, but yes dress codes are absolutely bent or rigid based on gender and workplace. Shorts, flip flops, sheer shirts, etc are all in the realm of acceptability for ladies based on how they're worn. I don't think that I'd want to, but no shorts for me in the summertime.

[Zeusthecat]

I feel weird and slightly hypocritical making this defence of fashion because I'm absolutely one of those people who's opted out. I have mostly clothes that my mother bought for me years ago or that I got from older brothers. I have bought some but I mostly go off gut instinct of what I like the look of and I don't even try them on. My office is super casual, so I don't even wear shirts or anything. I just wear jackets/hoodies and jeans. I also only have one pair of shoes, which is really foolish even for non fashion reasons. I am aware of the value of it but I just don't feel compelled to learn enough to elevate myself beyond generic lazy man. I feel bad about not caring though, knowing that plenty of people don't enjoy this privilege.

 

When talking about having the privilege to not care about fashion, I think it is also worth considering that this whole concept of "fashion" in general is really only a privilege that people with some level of disposable income have. I imagine there is a large subset of people that don't care about fashion because it isn't something they can afford to spend money on. So it gets kind of weird when you consider that fashion is a privilege mostly enjoyed by people with money, but within those people, there are those that have the privilege to ignore it. But then you have others that ignore it, not because they have the privilege to do so, but because they literally can't afford to make different fashion choices.

 

We lived below the poverty line during the majority of my childhood and most of my clothes came from second hand stores so I just have a natural disdain for the importance people place on fashion. I don't really like the notion that it is necessarily "important" in any way because it isn't something that everyone necessarily has a lot of control over.

[Coods]

I think presuming is a highly vapid or commercialised field is a bit of a shallow read. You could say the same about video games as someone from the outside looking in on just the biggest releases and the huge mobile games.

 

Yeah, this is probably completely true. Those are actually just my own insecurities about my self esteem and privilege that I project onto buying stuff 

 

But, there exists the group that DOES see fashion as a sort of symbol of economic status through brand recognition that I am super fascinated by but do not understand. I don't know.

[SuperBiasedMan]

(sorry I can't directly quote for responses, I'm on a crappy laptop where the quote button doesn't work)

 

I get that read on it Zeus, and obviously there are some people who have literally no capacity to take part in choosing clothing in any way. But I was trying to make the Point that even if you shop at a second hand store you can take part if you want to, just by choosing clothes to match and fit and work together. That's what my girlfriend did when we had basically no money. Fashion isn't just a narrow band of expensive branded clothing where the level of fashion correlates to the pricetag. Again, even thinking about this is certainly an effort that maybe you're not in any position to be in, or maybe you literally have to just buy as cheaply as possible and don't have freedom of choice, but I think the possiblity exists on a broader range than you think.

 

@Coods I agree! The elitism certainly exists (I would say this also parallels with the game industry...) and I'm sure plenty of people have the same insecurity about it. But that doesn't mean you should accept the elitist definition of fashion when there's a much broader and better way to define it. We should change fashion to be a better, more inclusive and positive idea.

[Twig]

I pretty strongly disagree (read: how can you even think this?!) with the idea that white dudes don't suffer from societal pressure to dress to fit in. It's definitely true that they feel it less than other groups, but stop acting like it's a non-issue.