"Ethics and Journalistic Integrity"

[Merus]

Jaden Smith also got hassled off Twitter recently as well and no one is talking about it because, well, you know why.

 

I'm appalled that I did not hear about this because Jaden Smith's tweets were comedy gold. What the fuck are you doing, world.

[Ninety-Three]

Jaden Smith also got hassled off Twitter recently as well and no one is talking about it because, well, you know why. 

 

I didn't know why, so I Googled it, and look at what I found.

In light of this thread, I thought that was pretty funny. I looked through several articles and found a lot of "Jaden Smith quit Twitter" with zero explanation, could someone fill me in?

[Twig]

but about a product that he conceived, commodified, and sold?

Isn't that their whole reason for being, though? That the products these people enjoy shouldn't be criticized because politics are wrong or whatever and entertainment only exists to entertain.

 

Obviously it's dumb, but I'm not really surprised. Guess I'm used to it by now. ):

[natellite]

Yeah, you're right about that, but there's a rich history of feminist film critique that has existed and endured for decades before this group came around. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that people are looking at major films through a different lens. But I guess it's different because this is their movie that they like.

[Reyturner]

Joss Whedon confirms he was not chased off of twitter by feminists, oh also feminism is a den of vipers and it's ruining liberalism   

[natellite]

“That is horseshit,” he told BuzzFeed News by phone on Tuesday. “Believe me, I have been attacked by militant feminists since I got on Twitter. That’s something I’m used to. Every breed of feminism is attacking every other breed, and every sub-section of liberalism is always busy attacking another sub-section of liberalism, because god forbid they should all band together and actually fight for the cause.

 

Aww, I love being talked down to by dudes who think they know how to "fix" feminism.

[Gormongous]

Aww, I love being talked down to by dudes who think they know how to "fix" feminism.

 

To be fair, feminism really should be focusing on whatever Joss Whedon thinks is important. That's why they call it "feminism."

[natellite]

The really infuriating thing is that he isn't even wrong. I'm hugely frustrated with the leftist inclination toward eating one's young - it's why I've gotten away from radical queer spaces over the years. I just don't have that kind of righteousness in me anymore, it burns me up and leaves me empty. I'm done with sniffing out and bringing to light ideological impurity like it's some kind of fucked-up inquisition. But the messenger, in this case, is as important as the message, and I'm sick to death of being preached to by rich white men about how to correctly perform feminism.

 

This is why the other side is so much better at this. At least they can stay on-message.

[Gormongous]

The really infuriating thing is that he isn't even wrong. I'm hugely frustrated with the leftist inclination toward eating one's young - it's why I've gotten away from radical queer spaces over the years. I just don't have that kind of righteousness in me anymore, it burns me up and leaves me empty. I'm done with sniffing out and bringing to light ideological impurity like some kind of fucked-up inquisition. But the messenger, in this case, is as important as the message, and I'm sick to death of being preached to by rich white men about how to correctly perform feminism.

 

Yeah, I'd like there to be less infighting, too, but quitting Twitter because some feminists don't like your snark-bro action movie just isn't the correct impetus for that call to arms, however justified you are or feel you are. Also, it doesn't help that Whedon has given multiple tone-deaf speeches about minor defects in feminism holding it back to female-dominated feminist associations, like his utterly ridiculous one a couple years ago about the word "feminist" not sounding enough like the default position of a human being and therefore needing to be abandoned in favor of calling opponents of feminism the hideous neologism of "genderist." Like, I agree with Merus(?) that Whedon's just getting older and more reactionary, but seriously? Yes, there are problems with feminism as a label and a movement, but effectively reproducing the ubiquitous bullshit of #HumanistNotFeminist and #AllGendersMatter in service of a more subtle social justice is just painful to watch and hear. Maybe just let this one go, Joss?

 

In general, Whedon's gotten a lot more concerned with the branding of the movement, but last time I checked, the revolution was not going to be televised.

[Merus]

Yeah, I recently decided that I agreed with the argument that white cis males can't be feminists, even if they have an interest in feminism or feminist thought, because part of the point of feminism is the erasure of women's identities and beliefs in favour of men's. The messenger is as important as the message, so as much as we might agree with feminist thought, if we call ourselves feminists, we're subverting it by making it our message. Like, it's a problem that when the Sad Puppies point at prominent feminists and SJWs in sci-fi, their most prominent target is a white, cis, happily married man who lives in Ohio.

[natellite]

I've agreed with both sides of that particular point, to be honest. I don't have a problem with men calling themselves feminists - lord knows the patriarchy affects men, too - my problem is with the men who think that the 'feminist' label necessarily gives them an authority role, like they're barging into our sewing party, rolling up their sleeves and finally getting things done. I don't care what you call yourself as long as you have, like, the minimum of respect and self-awareness; you gotta know when to speak up and when to stay in your lane, or at least know when to ask. Marketing is important, but by your works shall ye be judged, you know?

 

But, like, that's just me, too, and I know at least one other completely brilliant woman who would totally disagree with me. It's all very fraught and complicated and difficult.

[Deadpan]

I'm glad to see that folk here have already noted, as I wanted to point out after seeing this stuff tweeted around, that him saying feminists didn't drive him off Twitter kind of feels secondary to him saying that they totally do that kind of thing all the time though instead of fighting whatever his idea of "the cause" is.

 

A professor in a Gender Studies course I did once defined the ideal role for men in feminism to "listen to women, talk to other men," which is the lets-be-real version of listening to people with more experience dealing with stuff and talking about it to people with less experience. I don't know if feminist or ally is the more appropriate label for that, although I do tend to use feminist for the exact purpose of hopefully demonstrating to other men that this is something they should actively (although not obnoxiously) support instead of just calling it a good thing from a distance.

[Merus]

Yeah, but I think calling yourself a feminist necessarily implies a level of influence over what that category means - at the very least, you have the authority to determine what it means for you. Same with any other label.

 

It's not really an important distinction for men, anyway - feminist thought's still interesting, and most of what feminism wants from men is signal boosting, respect and letting others speak anyway.

[Deadpan]

That's fair, certainly in so far as a lot of dudes call themselves feminists but practice very questionable politics in reality. But also maybe men should have a limited amount of speaking power in feminism? Obviously nothing on the level of "Why isn't it called humanism? What has it ever done for me? *fart noises*", but in a very broad sense the changing of gender roles does as much involve no longer teaching boys they're expected to be strong as it does no longer teaching girls they're expected to be weak, and more specifically, as far as its intersectionality is concerned, feminism has some obligation to consider the needs of queer men, trans men, men of color, etc. You know, groups of men facing oppression that the actual "Men's Rights Activists" don't give a rat's ass about.

 

This is just some gut feelings though and if anybody can articulate why it's wrong I'm not terribly attached.

[Vainamoinen]

Equality is equality. Men are fighting in court for custody of their children, and they lose because exactly the kind of gender roles are in place that feminism would love to see gone. But all this may be better discussed in the "feminism" thread.

 

This really isn't connected that much to feminism. It's connected to online discussion culture and the direct contact people can now have with the creators of narrative media. I do miss studying literature and reading feminist criticism about the works of long dead authors, because that was the perfect meta level. It never felt like an attack. Feminist authors could love and condemn Hemingway at the very same time.

 

Not sure how many people even have the ability left to discuss a story and its implications without the vitriol and backlash to the creator we're seeing on twitter today. 140 characters will certainly never suffice.

 

What the discussion needs might be exactly the kind of detachment Anita shows in (most of) the Tropes vs. Women videos.

[tberton]

That quote from Whedon is exactly why I hate that every discussion of politics in North America is wedded to this two sides, liberalism/conservatism, right/left, red/blue paradigm. It's stupidly simplistic and reductionist and makes any real conversation impossible. Political opinions are not an either/or, nor are they neatly arranged on a single line! An argument whose premise is based on that idea, outside of very specific circumstances (like some conversations around elections and polls) is invalid from the get-go.

[Apple Cider]

I try to live a life of more radical politics with less ideological purity and more just that I wish more liberal feminists cared about some of the same stuff I did, but I tend to get thrown off a cliff by being called toxic/extremist.

 

I still dislike Whedon a lot.

[Vainamoinen]

That quote from Whedon is exactly why I hate that every discussion of politics in North America is wedded to this two sides, liberalism/conservatism, right/left, red/blue paradigm. It's stupidly simplistic and reductionist and makes any real conversation impossible.

 

Fully agree just until that point. I'd go further and say that not only that narrow political spectrum, but indeed the whole political lens isn't any basis for a discussion of movie or game narrative.

 

Diversity and equality are motifs in narrative throughout time. Whether some political party in some far away country picks up the motif – I could not care less.

[clyde]

Where did @fengxii go?

[slime]

To be fair, feminism really should be focusing on whatever Joss Whedon thinks is important. That's why they call it "feminism."

 

 

For what it's worth (in case anyone hasn't read the full article):

 

As far as Whedon is concerned, however, anyone blaming feminists for driving him away from social media is not only wrong, but missing the point about the relationship between internet trolls and feminists on Twitter.

“For someone like Anita Sarkeesian to stay on Twitter and fight back the trolls is a huge statement,” he said. “It’s a statement of strength and empowerment and perseverance, and it’s to be lauded. For somebody like me to argue with a bunch of people who wanted Clint and Natasha to get together [in the second Avengers film], not so much. For someone like me even to argue about feminism — it’s not a huge win. Because ultimately I’m just a rich, straight, white guy. You don’t really change people’s minds through a tweet. You change it through your actions. The action of Anita being there and going through that and getting through that and women like her — that says a lot.”

[JonCole]

Where did @fengxii go?

 

Fengxii "got chased off" aka had the last straw break by the weird aGG split between the group of aGG that are just as aGG as ever and the group that is just kinda trying to move on. Fengxii was trying to tell Izzy Galvez to let some stuff rest because it wasn't worth it, and then all of Izzy's peeps dogpiled.

 

I'm getting increasingly annoyed with the aGG element who just can't stop posting screencaps of awful tweets and shitting on soha/altgames because she's trying to suck some life out of GG with positivity. Just blocking those people with no regret at this point.

[Apple Cider]

Yeah, I am still extremely sour about that whole business. 

[natellite]

For what it's worth (in case anyone hasn't read the full article):

 

Right, and he's mistaken about that - as a rich, straight, white guy he is more likely to actually influence people just by existing in his position of perceived power and authority than Anita is. This is why, as Deadpan noted, one of the primary responsibilities of male supporters of feminism is to talk to other men.

 

 

I try to live a life of more radical politics with less ideological purity and more just that I wish more liberal feminists cared about some of the same stuff I did, but I tend to get thrown off a cliff by being called toxic/extremist.

 

I still dislike Whedon a lot.

 

I didn't mean to imply that radical politics in general needed to go under the bus - someone has to do it, and naturally that term is going to imply something different to everyone. I'm just generally exhausted by the stuff I was steeped in for years. I'm sure other people's experiences with it were more positive.

[itsamoose]

The problem I've always seen with modern liberalism is this tendency for people to have their egos tied up in their politics. I think for some it isn't enough to see change, they must also have the part they played in it recognized. Most often I see this as responding with quotes, as if associating oneself with a famous civil rights leader/respected figure somehow gives authority to your position. This is particularly troubling as of late, since it seems so easy to be plucked from obscurity to be a thought leader. Take Anita Sarkeesian for example. Most people see her as this johnny-come-lately feminist who made a couple videos and became famous, ignoring the years she spent earning advanced degrees on the subject. For some, across the entire spectrum, the promise of fame is the real motivator and they will say whatever they need to see that happen.

Also, it's a little too much for me to see a publication like buzzfeed, who constantly perpetuates this kind of nonsense, to emerge as the voice of reason.

[Deadpan]

Yeah, I am still extremely sour about that whole business. 

 

Understandably so! I missed a lot of this stuff actually going down being at an event, but it's all proper garbage and even the reverberations I caught were pretty gross still. Zolani and Soha are rad and deserve better than this and same goes for you.