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I get the intent but the reality is that these sorts of lists basically ghettoize women in games and imply that the way for women to be notable in games, especially these days, is not to make good games but to specifically address "women's issues" or throw red meat to liberals.

I can't speak to the other list, but Emily Short specifically mentions in regard to hers:

Hi! Something to bear in mind about that list: I'd been asked about games in which women's voices could be heard, and it's not so easy to identify any one individual's input on a game that had dozens or hundreds of contributors as it is with an indie game. If the list had been a list of every woman I know or know of who works on a commercially backed game project, it would have been very different.

It's also not really a list of Games For Women. A few of them might be -- I'd guess that Miss Management fit common expectations about the demographic for casual games, and Georgina Bensley also probably reaches more women than men -- but most of the indie and interactive fiction entries on that list were written for a mixed audience and played by many men as well as women.

from here: http://www.metafilter.com/122250/My-looks-are-often-commented-on-long-before-the-work-Ive-done#4708128

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I can't speak to the other list, but Emily Short specifically mentions in regard to hers:

from here: http://www.metafilter.com/122250/My-looks-are-often-commented-on-long-before-the-work-Ive-done#4708128

 

I'm not talking about games for a female audience, I'm talking about games that are about appropriately female stuff and for the audience that wants games with a "woman's voice."

 

The idea of a "woman's voice" in games is nonsense and once again ghettoizes female game devs. If you are a woman you have a woman's voice, full stop. If you make a kick ass action game as a woman you have a woman's voice. If you create a silly kids platformer you have a "woman's voice." If you make an anti-feminist screed you have a "woman's voice." The idea that you only have a "woman's voice" if you talk about lady things is ridiculous and destructive. It's not feminine for women to be creative unless what they create aligns with what you believe women should be expressing? What? If a woman creates a COD-killer is she "acting like a man."?

 

I get the intent here but this type of thinking is extremely regressive. It's the idea that women speak, or should speak, only in a certain range, and everything outside that range is inauthentic to their gender.

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So, if I understand correctly, the achievements of someone like Amy Hennig would be valid from that point of view?

(fun fact: spellcheck autocorrects Hennig to Henning)

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So, if I understand correctly, the achievements of someone like Amy Hennig would be valid from that point of view?

 

 

I'm not sure I understand the question. A achievement is an achievement - how can it be valid or invalid?

 

Amy Hennig's resume is more impressive than Neil Druckmann's in a direct apples-to-apples comparison, so however notable he is or what he achieved she's at least as notable and has achieved at least as much.

 

My posts were less about what sort of work was valid and more about how female video game developers have over time, perhaps despite good intentions, been moved into a women's issues ghetto, where female game developers are recognized for acting sufficiently feminine and also expected to act sufficiently feminine.

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I'm not sure I understand the question. A achievement is an achievement - how can it be valid or invalid?

 

Amy Hennig's resume is more impressive than Neil Druckmann's in a direct apples-to-apples comparison, so however notable he is or what he achieved she's at least as notable and has achieved at least as much.

 

My posts were less about what sort of work was valid and more about how female video game developers have over time, perhaps despite good intentions, been moved into a women's issues ghetto, where female game developers are recognized for acting sufficiently feminine and also expected to act sufficiently feminine.

 

I'm sorry, I really don't understand where you're coming from here. When has a female game designer ever been censured either by the industry or by the press for being too masculine or working on a male-oriented game? Sexism is a very real and present problem in the games industry, but unless I've been missing something all along, women there get shit for being women, not for how feminine they are or aren't. There are ongoing efforts to whitewash the presence and experience of women in the games industry, but never has Rock Paper Shotgun neglected to cover an incident of sexism because the woman concerned didn't fit John Walker's idea of femininity.

 

And honestly, I'd go ahead and say that Amy Hennig being as or more successful as Neil Druckmann is a more impressive accomplishment because she did so in the face of massive, widespread, and institutionalized sexism. That's something I'd like to hear about, as it seems several other people here would too.

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My posts were less about what sort of work was valid and more about how female video game developers have over time, perhaps despite good intentions, been moved into a women's issues ghetto, where female game developers are recognized for acting sufficiently feminine and also expected to act sufficiently feminine.

 

This generally happens because the visibility of women is reduced and reduced and reduced, and the frustration of not being able to get the same amount of attention for the same kind of games, or even worse the kind of attention that's all about the designer and not this cool thing they made*, can often inspire a design that is fresh and distinctive and very much about "women's issues". (I also note that, for instance, Anna Anthropy has made games both about sub/dom lesbians and about space explorers on distant planets.) We also forget, as males, how often we see "men's issues" presented as a universal theme - like there was an awful lot of games about fatherhood specifically last year.

 

Which is why I brought it up in the first place - on the face of it, Steve would be aware of all of this, working in a gender balanced team that took a fairly successful crack at a story about teenage girls. Tone Control is the kind of venue that contributes - strongly - to the visibility of game designers. If you want a world where game designers are not white upper-middle class men, this is the sort of place that leads that conversation, if it's going to take place. I find it puzzling that it's been several months and it's been for the most part a sausage fest; I can imagine scheduling would be a problem and Steve might want to be in the same studio as his guests for maximum audio quality, but still.

 

* I remember this terrible comic from Something Awful that made Jade Raymond out as an honest-to-god whore around the time she was leading Assassin's Creed, and it still makes my blood boil.

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I'm hoping for Zoe Quinn. I know from Twitter that she and Steve are friends and I'd love to hear more of her story.

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I've announced the final 3 guests for Tone Control Season 1:

 

www.idlethumbs.net/tonecontrol#Schedule

 

I had fantastic conversations with all of them, including most surreally my former boss, Ken Levine.

 

So yeah, Tone Control S1 will end on May 1. As you guys have been noting, what I discovered as I went along was that due to logistical issues, plus my own very narrow set of criteria for the podcast guests, I ended up doing 14 episodes with no female guests, which is my own fault and not something I'm proud of. For Season 2 (ETA: unknown-- possibly will appear as scattered episodes over the next couple of years, or maybe start up again on a regular schedule after I ship our next game) my goal is to make part of the mission of the cast to have an equal or better gender balance by expanding the definition of a Tone Control guest and making a balanced lineup a personal priority of mine. I'll have a short announcement at the beginning of the final episode of Season 1 saying as much.

 

Thanks again everybody for listening, and I hope you'll enjoy the final three episodes of Tone Control S1.

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an equal or better gender balance

 

Better than equal! (Nah, I get what you're saying.)

 

You definitely have a solid lineup, Steve.  In addition to active, successful developers, I'd love to hear war stories from people who have left the industry or up-and-comers who are still trying to figure things out.

 

Bring that unashamedly stereo microphone where ever you go and stick it into as many interesting faces as you can!

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In addition to active, successful developers, I'd love to hear war stories from people who have left the industry or up-and-comers who are still trying to figure things out.

 

Yep, that is basically the idea. Onward and upward!

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Excellent!

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