tegan

Keiji Inafune's Mighty No.9

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Missing the chance to have something signed by its creator is not an appropriate comparison for a product having a piece of content omitted from its flow.

Agreed. It's a business practice that I find incredibly gross and indefensible. I understand that it works and incentivizes a lot more purchases than might otherwise happen, but ugh. It's not the worst business practice in video games, but it's still not good.

 

Purely cosmetic stuff is totally acceptable, but when it's a gameplay FEATURE that is only available to people who jumped in at the right time? "Hey check out this cool mechanic you'll never get to use!" Fuck.

 

(I don't think it'll be a significant thing, for the record, but that doesn't mean I won't call it out for being bullshit.)

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I can't help to notice that you all disagree with the book angle, but ignored the limited edition angle... Kickstarter did not invent the exclusive content you'll never get to see because you didn't get on the bandwagon on time. 

 

Sure, some games eventually release this content as DLC... others do not. 

 

Also imagine it from the point of the person who bought the Limited Edition, this person probably had to keep close attention to know about the offer and pay extra to get it. How would you feel if you worked hard or payed extra to get a special deal only to have people demand the same deal for less money and effort? So now nobody gets to feel special because it's unfair? 

 

Next you'll be telling me that people who pledge one dollar deserve to be in the credits as much as those who payed 50$.

 

Are you also against indie bundles now? Did you know that many game offer EXCLUSIVE versions of their games with some indie bundles, with minor to major changes in the game? 

 

Is it also disgusting that people get a special reward for participating in a payed beta or alpha build?

 

IT'S THE SAME THING!

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Next you'll be telling me that people who pledge one dollar deserve to be in the credits as much as those who payed 50$.

Are you kidding me here? That's not at all similar to ACTUAL GAME CONTENT.
 
I honestly don't know how to explain it in a way that it hasn't already been explained.
 
You keep offering counterarguments like limited editions as if that isn't the exact same thing and thus just as bad. Stop it. We're arguing about one thing, and one thing only: game content locked away from future users. Doesn't matter how it's locked away. Doesn't matter if it's limited editions, preorder bonuses, Kickstarter pledges, raffles, whatever. It's game content that is unavailable to the majority of users. It is an actual gameplay mechanic that only a minority of people ever get to use. You brought up the book comparison, and are conveniently ignoring it now that it's been made painfully clear that doing something similar for a book would be tantamount to ruining the book. Mington's example of losing out on two pages because you didn't preorder or whatever is EXACTLY the problem we're having here.
 
It's not about it being "unfair". It's about literally losing out on content because you didn't jump in on time. What if you didn't get to play level three because you didn't preorder? The game just jumped from level two to level four because you didn't back at $100, and you're shit outta luck because "That's Life!" THAT'S the kind of example you should be using, because it's the same exact thing, on a larger scale.

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So you point out the part that was clearly not to be taken seriously and ignore the part that was... 

 

Do you have any idea how many "decoder ring clubs" are there? How many "locked doors" there are?

 

You do realize that this forum itself has a backer only section, right? And that most KS have exclusive forums too were you get to give feedback and see special promos and trailers of the game.

 

I just don't see the problem... So you're missing out on content because you missed out on a special deal? And that's the thing it's a special deal, a promotion, a limited edition. 

 

Not to mention that you're exaggerating and acting like the companies are evil and blocking VITAL content, it's always a stupid gun, weapon, skin or accessory, stop acting like they actually are willing to block a whole level because you didn't. You've heard or variant exclusive covers for comics, right? They make the people who bought feel special, but it doesn't change much. That's what they are doing.

 

You guys are whining because some people payed extra to get a +0.05 in McGuffiness that will be useless in the next level. I got UnEpic in an indie bundle deal and it came with an exclusive magic ring.... that made the beginning a bit easy but was quickly replaced. 

 

Unless you actually point out a game that actually blocks out an actual level... a VITAL part of content, not some lame mini challenge that doesn't affect the game nor some free DLC that non-KS will have to pay for, I simply don't see your point.

 

So yeah, people who pay extra get a +5 in tapir taming and a dumb suit, why is that so terrible? You're acting like they are going to out the final boss and ending and held it hostage behind a pay wall.

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So you point out the part that was clearly not to be taken seriously and ignore the part that was... 

 

Do you have any idea how many "decoder ring clubs" are there? How many "locked doors" there are?

 

You do realize that this forum itself has a backer only section, right? And that most KS have exclusive forums too were you get to give feedback and see special promos and trailers of the game.

 

You keep hitting on examples like this as if they're relevant, but it's apples and oranges.

 

I just don't see the problem... So you're missing out on content because you missed out on a special deal? And that's the thing it's a special deal, a promotion, a limited edition. 

 

Not to mention that you're exaggerating and acting like the companies are evil and blocking VITAL content, it's always a stupid gun, weapon, skin or accessory, stop acting like they actually are willing to block a whole level because you didn't. You've heard or variant exclusive covers for comics, right? They make the people who bought feel special, but it doesn't change much. That's what they are doing.

You can make assumptions, but you cannot actually know the full breadth and scope of what their backer promise will ultimately entail. The developer behind a given game will certainly always want you to believe a "bonus" piece of content is important, they want it to be an incentive to coax money out of you. This is part of why it's shitty, it's highly misleading. It's a practice that is there not to reward dedicated fans and early adopters, but to make people feel like they're missing out on something important if they're not.

 

Certainly, and there are games that have had meaningful pieces of content tied up in pre-order bonuses and such things. Deus Ex: Human Revolution pops to mind, there was an extra mission and a few unique weapons tied up in pre-orders. Said mission cameos an important character from the original game and is fairly sizable. How about Anarchy Reigns? Pre-orders for that got extra maps and extra modes and Bayonetta as a unique, fully fleshed-out playable character. It was a massive chunk of the game being held back for pre-order bonuses.

In both of those cases, those bonuses were eventually sold separately, but they were still initially pitched as exclusive pre-order bonuses. Manipulative and not cool. (I also don't think them eventually being available for purchase necessarily excuses it, but that maybe falls more under the old DLC argument. Relevant perhaps, but i think ultimately a different conversation.)

Hey, and remember the whole mess with the Prothean crew member in Mass Effect 3? How it was either included with the collector's edition, or otherwise only available as a ten dollar piece of day one paid content, causing a bunch of people to end up playing through that game without that massively important piece of the story? That was a really, really shitty thing for BioWare and EA to do.

 

You guys are whining because some people payed extra to get a +0.05 in McGuffiness that will be useless in the next level. I got UnEpic in an indie bundle deal and it came with an exclusive magic ring.... that made the beginning a bit easy but was quickly replaced. 

 

Whining? You do realize that you're coming off as the person most agitated by this conversation, right?

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The only bit of semantics I'd like to highlight is in the assertion that by having something exclusive, it's being omitted. I think it's a bit like the general dissatisfaction with planned DLC - people think that if DLC is planned, then the creators must have intentionally carved away elements of the "complete" game to deliver that "extra" content. I don't think there's ever evidence of that being true, and similarly I don't think there's any assurance that this bit of exclusive content will be anything but excess rather than something essential. Of course, that depends on your definition of essential, but I just thought the comparison was germane. 

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The main difference is those are "evil AAA" companies who are locking vital content behind a pay wall and a smaller company that is locking minor unimportant content for a FUNDRAISER. If the kickstarter doesn't reach it's goal the game will never exist in a first place.

 

I think Ubisoft had an actual full chapter in one of the AC games as a pre-order bonus, but it's Ubisoft... 

 

And every KS I've seen just give you the "golden gun and silver top hat" treatment. Heck, I'd even be OK with an KS-exclusive level if it had KS exclusive content, like... a level where the guy who pay $1000 is a boss and they guys who payed 200 are mini-bosses and the walls had the names of all the backer and a song praising you for making the game possible played while you played the level and gave you a shirt that said "I backed the game and all I got was this lousy T-shirt" as a reward. If you didn't back the project, such content should mean nothing to you.

 

If I sound agitated it's because the last few KS conversations I had was pretty much people throwing a tantrum because they didn't get the "golden gun and silver top hat" treatment. I've grown tired of it and it's become a tender subject. 

 

All I'll say is, this is a small company fundraiser, not EA, they just want to make a game, not buy another yatch and that until I'm proven wrong, the worst case scenario is that you'll miss out in the "golden gun and silver top hat" treatment.

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I have no problem with creators privileging the users who come through for them in a time of need. 

 

I am also sort of annoyed at the idea that a game can be compared to a book. A game is a piece of software. If you never manage to get to the end boss stages, do they exist? You can't flip forward and see them like you can with a book. Those stages don't exist unless they have a player to play them - what exists in the game code are instructions for building the stage when there is a player present. But if you don't press a key, if Beck never moves, that stage still doesn't exist. It's only in the act of playing it that it becomes real.

 

Or take Cookie Clicker - at what point does one have The Full Experience of Cookie Clicker? That line is different for everyone, and we all find everyone else's line either insufficient or insane. We cannot, objectively, declare one set of experiences to be The Full Experience, and decrying its absence is churlish because you can't possibly have The Full Experience anyway.

 

For Mighty No. 9 in particular, part of the experience is trusting in Inafune's team and participating in the development of the game. If you did not back the Kickstarter, you are not getting The Full Experience of Mighty No. 9 because part of the experience will be complete by the time you buy the game. Why privilege a level over your participation in development? If the retail version is still an experience the creators regard as 'complete', isn't this sufficient? (Of course, the very minute the implication is made by the developers that the game is not 'complete' without a particular piece of extra content, I'm no longer charitable.)

 

Besides, you could always buy a used copy of the Kickstarter edition off someone.

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If you did not back the Kickstarter, you are not getting The Full Experience of Mighty No. 9 because part of the experience will be complete by the time you buy the game. Why privilege a level over your participation in development? If the retail version is still an experience the creators regard as 'complete', isn't this sufficient? (Of course, the very minute the implication is made by the developers that the game is not 'complete' without a particular piece of extra content, I'm no longer charitable.)

 

This was basically the point I was trying to make. For me, it's a degree of trust in the developer. Do I trust that comcept will truly be delivering what they consider to be a complete experience with the retail version? I do. Do I trust that Irrational delivered what they consider to be a complete experience with their retail version of Bioshock Infinite (despite having announced DLC prior to release)? I do. Did I trust that Bioware/EA delivered the complete experience with the non-Collectors edition of Mass Effect 3? Absolutely not.

 

That trust is meaningful in that it is the red line between making something a bonus or a detraction. In this particular case, I trust Inafune and comcept to deliver a more than sufficient experience with their retail versions. If they break my trust and make that exclusive content a meaningful detraction from the "complete" retail experience, that might change my perspective when I choose to purchase their next game.

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I also trust Inafune to deliver a complete experience, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm happy with it. It's a dumb thing to do. And that's that! 

So you point out the part that was clearly not to be taken seriously and ignore the part that was... 

So the book comparison that only serves to work against you wasn't meant to be taken seriously. How convenient! It's difficult to have this conversation with you, because you keep treating everyone who disagrees with you like a whiny baby. You're about a million times more emotionally invested in this than me. I simply don't want to support what I consider a poor business practice. Get over it.

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Whether backer-exclusive content (and pre-order bonuses in general) is coercive is an interesting question, so it makes me sad that it's devolved so quickly to the tired old saw of "gamer entitlement." Personally, I think that the onus is on the developer to provide some assurance that any such content is cosmetic or at least superfluous. I checked out The Long Dark kickstarter yesterday and, while scanning the rewards tiers, I saw that backing would get me "an exclusive in-game LOCKET" with gameplay effects. But the description went on to say that it would have the same effect as a Polaroid that comes in the release version of the game and is just a nice bit of art for backers. More developers should take that approach. I don't know why most kickstarters have to have hooded allusions to "an exclusive in-game item with a surprising and incredible effect," which definitely comes off as coercive. Well, I do know, but I'd like to think it's more because they don't have what the item is planned out and not because being deliberately vague tempts more people to put down more money. If that's the line between a kickstarter's success and failure, I hope the slight loss of goodwill from me and others like me is worth it.

 

Also, even just implying that someone doesn't deserve to pay for a piece of content because they weren't there for the developer when the latter needed them sounds more like developer entitlement than gamer entitlement. I don't even know where to start with that.

 

 

EDIT: I keep coming back to the book/movie analogy, even though I know it's flawed. How would we all feel about a limited edition that is marketed as being "different from the regular edition in important and surprising ways," with there being an even chance whether the differences are entire scenes or just a nice cover?

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I also trust Inafune to deliver a complete experience, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm happy with it. It's a dumb thing to do. And that's that! 

So the book comparison that only serves to work against you wasn't meant to be taken seriously. How convenient! It's difficult to have this conversation with you, because you keep treating everyone who disagrees with you like a whiny baby. You're about a million times more emotionally invested in this than me. I simply don't want to support what I consider a poor business practice. Get over it.

No, I meant the "Next thing you'll tell me you'll want to be in the credits when you only pledge one dollar" was not to be taken seriously, the book one was just poor worded. 

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To be fair, you keep bringing out more and more ridiculous and unrelated examples, so it's hard to tell which ones are meant to be "serious".

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EDIT: I keep coming back to the book/movie analogy, even though I know it's flawed. How would we all feel about a limited edition that is marketed as being "different from the regular edition in important and surprising ways," with there being an even chance whether the differences are entire scenes or just a nice cover?

 

People (including myself) got quite miffed about Star Trek: Into Darkness's plethora of retailer exclusive content that included a director's commentary. Y'know, the one piece of meaningful bonus content that is the baseline expectation of anyone buying a DVD/Blu-Ray. The comparison is hardly 1:1, but that content was superfluous in a literal sense, as you didn't need a director's commentary to make a film "whole", but it broke just about every expectation that any reasonable consumer would have.

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Come to think of it, I think there was recently a book pre-order where you got an exclusive mini-novella that filled in the blanks in Scott Sigler's The Rookie for side story character. I don't know if it's available now to non pre-order people, but it still counts I think.

 

Just to be on the same page, do you think all exclusive content is "wrong" or does it have to be a specific type? If not, when does it become "iffy"? Does the mere fact that some people are paying extra to know of a product's progress evil or is it basic decency? Do art books or soundtracks count? Do betas count? I'm no wordsmith, but the fact that nothing I say seems to make sense to you makes me wamt to know at least this.

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If it affects gameplay beyond a superficial level, it shouldn't be exclusive in any fashion, except that maybe it becomes unlockable later on, instead of being unlocked immediately.

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OK, that's a starting point. But what about when it's just something that might affect gameplay in a very minor way, like a +0.5 XP gain ring that gives a minimal advantage or items that give temporary advantage, like the ring I describe in Unepic, that quickly became useless?

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What is your goal here? To find a line in the sand? I don't like it at all.

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What is your goal here? To find a line in the sand? I don't like it at all.

 

At this point, the goal seems to be being right at least 1%.

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Mmm, I don't want to go in that direction, heh.

 

Obviously there are DEGREES of irritation here. A missing level would bother me way more than a missing +0.5% XP ring. But boil it down to the basics, and they're the same thing: missing content. On top of that, I have never been a fan of the business practice in general. I think it's exploitative, in much the same way many free-to-play games are exploitative. They feed on people's needs to have EVERYTHING. Of course, it works, and I can' begrudge someone doing something that works in a capitalistic society, but I don't like it, I don't approve of it, and I try to avoid supporting it.

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The only bit of semantics I'd like to highlight is in the assertion that by having something exclusive, it's being omitted. I think it's a bit like the general dissatisfaction with planned DLC - people think that if DLC is planned, then the creators must have intentionally carved away elements of the "complete" game to deliver that "extra" content. I don't think there's ever evidence of that being true, and similarly I don't think there's any assurance that this bit of exclusive content will be anything but excess rather than something essential. Of course, that depends on your definition of essential, but I just thought the comparison was germane. 

My goal is not to determine whether something is actually being added/omitted to/from the game, my point is that developers almost always want you to believe that the game will be better for the presence of whatever piece of content, that you will be receiving an inferior and incomplete product for missing out. (This ends up being true in enough situations to make it an incredibly frustrating, disheartening practice.)

 

The truth behind the matter is irrelevant when that is the only information you have to go on.

I should again reiterate that i am not taking any particular stance against this Mighty No 9 kickstarter, i do not imagine that the things they're marking as exclusive are going to matter all that much.

I think that Shantae kickstarter is doing some rather more suspect things, though.

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My goal is not to determine whether something is actually being added/omitted to/from the game, my point is that developers almost always want you to believe that the game will be better for the presence of whatever piece of content, that you will be receiving an inferior and incomplete product for missing out. (This ends up being true in enough situations to make it an incredibly frustrating, disheartening practice.)

 

The truth behind the matter is irrelevant when that is the only information you have to go on.

I should again reiterate that i am not taking any particular stance against this Mighty No 9 kickstarter, i do not imagine that the things they're marking as exclusive are going to matter all that much.

I think that Shantae kickstarter is doing some rather more suspect things, though.

 

Yeah, it's hard not to judge this practice on the whole when there are so many instances of it being super shitty. It's also somewhat murkier because usually, retailer exclusive content or day one DLC is a decision that you could most likely pin on publishers. In the case of these Kickstarter games, the developer is the one driving the choice to have this exclusive content so it's a lot easier to say, "weird, the game was actually designed in a way to give some people this content and others not".

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I think it's hard to judge the problem as a whole. Like very many things it's a problem of privileged. I have a lot of time realistically criticizing most companies monetization/funding models outside of saying "I will not participate cause bugs me". Not everyone is privileged enough to be in valve's place where you can make a more or less "pure" free to play game.  

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Well, I think I finally get your point, Twig. I can't speak for the companies so I can't say if they are doing it on purpose to be exploitative or not, but I'll say this, most Kickstarters would fail if they didn't have these higher pledge levels. 

 

Like I said, I can't speak for the KS creator's, maybe they are sincerely trying to make the fans feel special for their support of maybe they are exploiting the fact that the fans want to feel special or want a better version of the game. But just checking most of the Kickstarters that aren't from big people like Keiji Inafune or Tim Schafer, they would never reach the goal if these goals didn't exist.

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most Kickstarters would fail if they didn't have these higher pledge levels.

Huh. Most Kickstarters succeed with higher pledges that offer art books and art prints and shit. The in-game content, I doubt that really affects things as much as you, for whatever reason, believe.

 

EDIT: Actually being able to participate in game development (design an item! get yourself in the game as a character!) is probably the most attractive pledge, which is why they're always the highest. Exclusive game content is, generally, on the lower end of things.

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