This is the new (console) shit!

[SiN]

Basically, what tegan said. I talked about this in the Wii U thread:

Nintendo [back-compat is] supported at the hardware level. So when your Wii U switches to "Wii mode", the console actually underclocks the CPU and GPU, switches off RAM modules, etc to match the exact specs of the Wii. As a result, almost every game works perfectly.

Similarly, the Gameboy Colour is a Gameboy with a faster clock speed and more memory. The GBA uses the GB CPU (the Z80) as a sound processor. The PS2 used the PS1 CPU as a sound processor as well*. The DS is actually a dual-core system, it uses the GBA CPU as a co-processor. And so on ...

(* tegan, you missed that one)

This is only possible with careful planning, and consistency in the architecture. When Microsoft switched from Intel to IBM/PowerPC from the Xbox to 360, hardware back-compat was impossible. Similarly, PS2 to PS3 wasn't possible because of the Cell architecture. If I recall the rumours correctly, everyone is going AMD + ATi next gen, which is yet another break in architecture.

Also, the days of a single chip powering a console are done. It's crazy if you think about it: the thing that powered THE ENTIRE PLAYSTATION is used as a sound processor 5 years later! Tech moves fast. But doing that these days ("hey guys, lets use a three-core CPU and a videocard as co-processors!") is kinda impossible.

Nerdy rambling over.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Yep, that means the usual solution is software emulation, which is very time consuming and costly. Given how little of an uproar there was when MS cancelled XBox compatibility last time, I'm not convinced they won't just do the same again

It's funny, I was working at Sony when they released the PS2, and they had a dedicated team testing compatibility for EVERY PlayStation title. All day, every day, just working through the back catalogue. How times have changed.

I hope there's proper backwards compatibility this time, but time will tell. (Can someone tell me: Doesn't the 360 rely on .net and DirectX? Would that make it less dependent on hardware specifics?)

[Frenetic Pony]

I hope there's proper backwards compatibility this time, but time will tell. (Can someone tell me: Doesn't the 360 rely on .net and DirectX? Would that make it less dependent on hardware specifics?)

.net? No, but just like all MS products it does use DirectX. But no, console games are designed to run specifically on the exact hardware they're designed for. It's not going to help whatsoever really.

[ThunderPeel2001]

.net? No, but just like all MS products it does use DirectX. But no, console games are designed to run specifically on the exact hardware they're designed for. It's not going to help whatsoever really.

Huh. It seems that XNA isn't used all that much after all. Apparently it's not much use if you want to push the console to its limits -- which isn't that surprising.

[BigJKO]

Backwards compatibility is great and all, but it'll get in the way of the future: No Optical Drives! At some point, Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo are going to realise that retail is dead and that you can make smaller, less noisy, less power hungry consoles by simply leaving out the optical drive.

[SiN]

Huh. It seems that XNA isn't used all that much after all. Apparently it's not much use if you want to push the console to its limits -- which isn't that surprising.

Yeah, basically .net (or any managed language for that matter) is great for portability, but terrible for performance. XNA is a great (and now unsupported ) API, but performance was a pain with it, even for fairly simple 2D games.

For a practical look at the difference: Apple gets away with lower spec'd iPhones which perform faster (and more efficiently) than the competition because iOS apps are native (Objective-C), whereas most Android apps are managed (Java).

[JonCole]

Backwards compatibility is great and all, but it'll get in the way of the future: No Optical Drives! At some point, Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo are going to realise that retail is dead and that you can make smaller, less noisy, less power hungry consoles by simply leaving out the optical drive.

High-speed internet infrastructure in the US still isn't solid enough to support a download-only market.

[BigJKO]

[JonCole]

Yup. Also, I imagine a weird window where graphics go up in quality at a much faster pace than bandwidth, so physical will be even stronger for a brief period before internet can catch up.

The easy analogy is to video distribution formats - if content producers want to distribute 4K movies, they're almost guaranteed to do it on blu-rays or whatever the next standardized physical format is rather than try to force 25GB of relatively uncompressed video and audio down the skinny pipe that ISPs are offering right now. It's even difficult to find 1080p streaming sources right now (YouTube sometimes, Vudu, Netflix only announced 1080 at CES), I'm only aware of a few and most recommend 10mbps+ connections, which is not even close to the lower tiers of cable service in my area (the tiers are something like 4mbsp, 8mbps, then 12mbps).

[lobotomy42]

Honestly, I'm starting to see (this late in the game, I know!) the extreme benefit of playing games on PC. Games I bought fifteen years ago can still run on the machine I have today: imagine if I had had to keep the entire range or shitty, ridiculous PC's I've owned since then!

Only in theory. In practice, running games more than ten years old usually requires either an emulator or some kind of patch. Which isn't much different than re-compiling old games into HD rereleases on consoles.

[youmeyou]

The difference is that consoles are a closed ecosystem. You can't install stuff like DOSbox on your console. So you're beholden to the publishers, who aren't exactly jumping to make rereleases.

[Sno]

Check it out though, i still have my Gamecube, i can still play Gamecube games.

It's only when you start talking about online integration and authentication checks, which has happened equally on every platform in the last few years, that loading up an old favorite in ten years starts looking like a dubious proposition.

[osmosisch]

Check it out though, i still have my Gamecube, i can still play Gamecube games.

Yes, but who wants to keep old hardware around if it's not necessary? When I want to play Master of Magic I don't need to dust off my Pentium 1.

Modern consoles have been working on this though, with the Virtual Console and such.

[Sno]

I don't think we disagree, we just have different reasons for wanting backwards compatibility. I don't want to see games that are so completely dependent on outside factors be stranded, and i think that's an issue that didn't necessarily exist before this generation of games.

I think it's actually worse on the PC to be honest. Even if you're going through Steam, it always seems like there's a few other more unreliable layers to it. On the consoles, you're mostly just dealing with the platform holder. (And EA, because EA.)

Speaking for digital-only games, it seems almost a little strange that Nintendo ended up being the first one to say that you can let your old games live on the new consoles. I mean, with their weird hardware-tied purchases, it would have been really easy for them to say that your games will only live on the console you bought it for. (On the other hand, Nintendo has already for a very long time been quite a paragon of backwards compatible systems.)

It's a good precedent they've set for the digital stuff though, and i feel like if Sony and Microsoft don't follow, there's going to problems. They will have severely misread the market if they think backwards compatibility doesn't matter.

Even in this thread, some of you guys who are saying backwards compatibility doesn't matter are also saying you want to transfer over your XBLA games. It's the exact same thing as backwards compatibility. You want that digital thing you bought to exist in perpetuity, it's a natural expectation in this age. Digital media has become so device agnostic, and in this changing market, that is another reason why backwards compatibility is going to be so important for the next consoles.

[osmosisch]

I don't think we disagree, we just have different reasons for wanting backwards compatibility. I don't want to see games that are so completely dependent on outside factors be stranded, and i think that's an issue that didn't necessarily exist before this generation of games.

Oh, for sure! I consciously only quoted the part that I had anything to say about, which is that I prefer being able to play all my stuff on one machine. And with PC games I have more than enough confidence in the Power of Nerd that I think the games I find fun to replay will remain playable in perpetuity. Especially with first dosbox and then gog.com showing that this process has a lot of appeal to a lot of people.

All the online checks built into current Ubi games and the like are definitely a danger in this dimension, which is why I don't buy them.

[melmer]

Rumour: Xbox 720 and PlayStation 4 to be revealed around GDC in March

http://www.video gamer.com/news/rumour_xbox_720_and_playstation_4_to_be_revealed_around_gdc_in_march.html

whoop de doo, i wonder what colour plastic they'll use???

I kinda hope the PS4 is released first as i have no intention of buying one. I'll be able to read impressions and get the lie of the land before the new xbox drops and i wont feel to much like a next gen test subject for picking it up a launch. Although this actually all depends on what the console actual is.

[lobotomy42]

I kinda hope the PS4 is released first as i have no intention of buying one.

Funny, I think that's how I feel about the next Xbox. I've gone full circle on the Xbox this generation: I was excited at first, as I thought it would make a decent complement to the Wii. XBLA got off to a great start, and it seemed like Microsoft was genuinely pushing to get exclusives for a wide spectrum of game types. But by the end of this generation, that was clearly false. The whole UI is covered with ads, it was constantly pushing you to join Xbox Live, the UI redesigns come way too frequently, and MS' attempts to shove Kinect into all sorts of games where it makes no sense...and on top of it all, the Xbox increasingly looks like "the shooter and sports console" in comparison to the PS3 and the Wii. By the last major overhaul, I was done. It's clear that Microsoft is more interested in making a "living room media device" and is just using games as a way to get people to buy the hardware, so unless they come up with something REALLY compelling, I'm happy to pass on whatever they do next.

[melmer]

Its funny actually because its really all comes down to the games, and to be honest i can happily live without Gears of war and halo. But would find it mightily annoying if i couldn't play uncharted, God of war 3 (back when it was released, can't say i'm fussed for this new one) Demons souls etc

All my friends (although i never play with any of them) and achievement points are on xbox, and i do prefer the xbox pad. Although like i said, none of this really matters, i'm pretty immaterial and could easily walk away from all this.

I'm so prepared to be majorly disappointed with these new consoles

wait wait wait, i've just realised by not getting a playstation i'll be missing out on uncharted 4 hmmm. who am i kidding a couple of years from now i'll have both sat under my tele

[JonCole]

I seriously can't anticipate buying new consoles day one unless that weird technology lust kicks in and makes me want them just so I can tinker with new hardware. Until then, I'm much more likely to just pump more money into my PC or build another one to put in my living room so I can play my hideously huge backlog on the big screen.

Microsoft or Sony will have to do quite a bit to subvert my attitude on this, whether it's through exceptional games or exceptional features. Comparing the launch of the Wii U to the potential impact of Xbox/PS next-gen, I really only have any desire to play ZombiU and beyond that I can't imagine that the other games have any major appeal outside the whole "I'M PLAYING THIS ON A NEW CONSOLE YAAAAY" aspect. In other words, if the Xbox launches with Halo 5 and that alone (at least from my perspective) is what's supposed to get me on the hook, I can wait six or twelve months to make buying that $400 console more worth my while.

[ThunderPeel2001]

For a practical look at the difference: Apple gets away with lower spec'd iPhones which perform faster (and more efficiently) than the competition because iOS apps are native (Objective-C), whereas most Android apps are managed (Java).

Huh! I did not know that. Interesting!

[melmer]

CVG sources: Sony to abandon DualShock design for PS4

A senior games studio source working on an upcoming Sony game says the new system's controller has undergone numerous iterations, few of which resemble the DualShock build that has become synonymous with PlayStation.

Experiments within Sony's R&D department are thought to have been extensive. Versions of the new PS4 pad include biometric sensors on the grips and an LCD touch screen, the development source claimed.

A second source, working in a separate part of the industry but still connected to Sony, said PlayStation engineers are "trying to emulate the same user interface philosophies as the PS Vita". This is likely a reference to the touch-screen capabilities of the PlayStation handheld, and a suggestion that Sony will tightly integrate its portable and home systems.

The new console - codenamed Orbis - will be revealed in a matter of weeks, not months.

http://m.computerandvideo games.com/387287/cvg-sources-sony-to-abandon-dualshock-design-for-ps4/

I hope these new console do get revealed soon as I'm a big impatient baby.

[JonCole]

I never really thought the Dualshock was particularly ergonomic and it's fairly well agreed upon that the PSP and Vita are rough to hold for extended periods of time, so I really can't imagine what kind of hand mangling this purported Wii U Gamepad/mini-Vita thing will pull off.

[Lu]

Yes. I am ready. Give me... NEXT-GEN.

I'm also glad, because now that I've gotten used to the 360 pad I bought for my PC recently, I don't see myself ever using my Dualshocks again. Except, you know, for my PS3.

While incredibly curious and excited about the prospects of new systems, I wonder if I'll actually end up getting one. I got everything hooked up to each other in my home now, which has kind of made all my consoles obsolete. I guess it all hinges on the exclusives and whether or not the systems can do something my PC cannot.

[melmer]

Maybe they're just dong a wii U and it'll be a vita with bigger sticks n buttons. And you'll be able to take it away and use it as a handheld with vita games. How boring. I WANT VR!!!!

[tegan]