Dishonored 2: Corvo's Comeuppance

[Twig]

I know! I'm kind of excited. The one following that is more story, though. Also, I guess now that I think about it, they are going the way of "this choice is canon", as you can easily kill Daud. Unless the second DLC is supposed to be a "prequel" or whatever.

[Frenetic Pony]

Spiritual sequel ala Bioshock Infinite. I have absolutely zero interest in seeing those characters or that world again.

That being said, a game in the same mechanical vein, written by someone else and with the shortcomings addressed would be most welcome. No more enforced or explicit morality choices, much better AI, and no more vastly overpowering... powers would be great. I literally jumped past 99% of the last mission. I don't even know WTF happened story wise because I'm pretty sure I just abused Blink to jump past all the explanations, challenge, and everything else.

For example, that last loaded area took less than a minute. I was on the roof and rescued emily in about zero time at all. I know "breaking the game" is fun. I agree, I loved Halo 1 and stuff for being able to take a vehicle into the indoor corridors and such. But when I can just skip past the game entirely that's a little too much breaking.

[Badfinger]

If you really, REALLY wanted to keep Corvo, just make a prequel about his ~crazy~ adventures as Lord Protector to visit other countries and try to stir up aid and support for the island. Retcon out the Outsider and the powers, because other people can do them and everyone thinks that unrealized plot point is dumb as wax anyway.

[Twig]

See, I like the Outsider guy. It amuses me to think that there's this all-powerful dude who just likes to fuck with people, giving them powers for no reason other than his own enjoyment, and that's literally it. There always has to be some huge motive for these guys in fiction, but I like that the Outsider doesn't actually have one. The Outsider is probably the best part of the story.

[Frenetic Pony]

See, I like the Outsider guy. It amuses me to think that there's this all-powerful dude who just likes to fuck with people, giving them powers for no reason other than his own enjoyment, and that's literally it. There always has to be some huge motive for these guys in fiction, but I like that the Outsider doesn't actually have one. The Outsider is probably the best part of the story.

He is a good idea horribly, horribly implemented. Ugh, just the, delivery of almost every single bit of the story was cringe worthy. They can do the world building again, that was alright. But for the actual implementation they desperately need a new, professional, experienced writer full time. Not just "Oh hey Corvo, here's some cool powers, use them however, k bye lol!"

I wanted it to be... eerie. Atmospheric, wondering where I am. I wanted to be drawn into the story. I wasn't at all.

[Badfinger]

He is a good idea horribly, horribly implemented. Ugh, just the, delivery of almost every single bit of the story was cringe worthy. They can do the world building again, that was alright. But for the actual implementation they desperately need a new, professional, experienced writer full time. Not just "Oh hey Corvo, here's some cool powers, use them however, k bye lol!"

I wanted it to be... eerie. Atmospheric, wondering where I am. I wanted to be drawn into the story. I wasn't at all.

I agree with this, essentially. I have no problem with The Outsiders as a plot point or device, but the actual implementation was atrocious. In a world where so many little tangible and intangible things are fleshed out so wonderfully, a guy who shows up in your sleep and now THE MAGICK happens and he only shows up basically one more time to say "heh, that was neat huh" is so, so bad.

It really felt like the Outsider should have either been much more integrated into the story, or removed and only intimated through other people's actions or suppositions.

[melmer]

A sequel needs to by ten times darker. I remember seeing the concept art for the Pendleton twins and thinking they were going to be right evil buggers. Then they turned out to be mild bullies

[Badfinger]

They own mines that are run with slave labor, and they are complicit conspirators in an ongoing plot to assassinate the Empress and kidnap and hide her daughter indefinitely while usurping her power, using their extra influence to continue to live in luxury as an entire country crumbles to dust and disease. They don't have to be raving maniacs in person to be definitely evil. The very petty nature of their actual personalities seems right to me.

[melmer]

like i said mild bullies, haven't we all got slave mines

i would've liked to see them at least slap an elderly housekeeper. How about the age old rule of show, don't tell.

It would've been cool to have easedropped on a whore who was terrified of spending time with them or younger brother pendleton would walk around with a limp from where his brothers had crippled him as a child

[Twig]

I agree with this, essentially. I have no problem with The Outsiders as a plot point or device, but the actual implementation was atrocious. In a world where so many little tangible and intangible things are fleshed out so wonderfully, a guy who shows up in your sleep and now THE MAGICK happens and he only shows up basically one more time to say "heh, that was neat huh" is so, so bad.

It really felt like the Outsider should have either been much more integrated into the story, or removed and only intimated through other people's actions or suppositions.

But that's what I mean. That's why he's so great, because he doesn't really give a fuck beyond giving you powers and watching what you do with them. Why does he need to be fleshed out? He's just this powerful being playing with toys. Why does there need to be an explanation?

I mean, he could've been better. I'm not saying it was done well. But it's probably the best part of the STORY, for me. (That is, not the world.) I think it might've helped, too, if he wasn't such an Unreal-engine puppet, just standing still the entire time he was talking. When will game developers as a whole learn that you need to ANIMATE when you're animating? There are definitely some developers that understand this well, but they're few in number.

[Badfinger]

But where does that add ANYTHING to the story? It's a completely out of left field twist that doesn't do anything to the plot. It would be completely different if the Outsider was The Story. If the entire plot for the game was "The Outsider finds someone minding his own business and throws him into the blender of someone else's machine just to see what happens" that's pretty interesting and I would like to know more. But the Outsider is a weird subplot that has no impact whatsoever. He's not competing for your attention, he's not running in parallel to the conspirators' goals, he's not attempting to be at odds to them. He just shows up after 100% of the wheels have begun to turn on their own anyway, and then again at the end to let you know he was paying attention.

The evidence of the other assassins with similar skills allude to the fact that the Outsider doesn't need to choose you personally to be able to use the runic powers, it's crazy whale-power anyway. Without a fully cohesive explanation, the Outsider doesn't actually have a reason to exist in the framework of Dishonored.

[Twig]

Why does it have to add anything? Why does he have to be impactful? This is what I keep saying! Who cares if it adds anything? It's just this weird dude who can for whatever unimportant reason give you magical powers. This amuses me.

Also, I guess you didn't bother exploring? Because he definitely shows up more than just two times, if you bother collecting the runes... And it's always with the attitude of, "I didn't have to make you powerful, but I did. Why? Because it's fun!"

EDIT: Actually he does sometimes warn you, like telling you Granny Rags is dangerous, but that's kind of whatever.

[Badfinger]

Because if he doesn't matter, why does he matter? One of the tenants of design is that your decisions should add something, that's why. I don't need every choice and line of dialogue workshopped to hell and back. If you make every choice "meaningful" then they're all equally meaningless. Sometimes a man is just man. But the Outsider is presented as a major subplot, and the main thrust of the game would have been the same if you replaced him with a magic Assassin school or an Alex Mack-style puddle of goo, or just a whale charm Corvo had been sleeping next to for 6 months in the wall of prison. What I'm saying is that the Outsider's inclusion in the game literally does not effect it at all. And it seems like you're agreeing with me, but from the opposite direction. Which is fine, you can want that, but it's awful design and storytelling.

I collected every rune except one, because making my way there people would have died and I was trying to avoid it. Now that you mention it I guess he showed up maybe 4 times total. It made a big impression on me I guess.

It is awfully weird that I'm arguing against a game that's absolutely one of my favorite's this year. This is by far its weakest point, though.

[Twig]

Why is it awful? Why can't it just be a thing that exists and is amusing because it exists like it exists? I mean, argue that it's poorly done all you want. I can't entirely disagree there. I like it, but it's definitely not the best implementation of the idea. However, the basic concept is not an inherently flawed one. I don't really understand this idea that everything has to be important.

[Badfinger]

I feel like I answered your questions, but to be succinct: not everything has to be important, which I agreed with. However, if you present something as a major subplot and it ends as a zero-sum endeavor where its inclusion means nothing and changes nothing, then it wasn't really a major subplot was it?

I also agreed with you that the concept is not flawed. Its presentation and execution is flawed in large ways. It's fine that you were entertained by a man who was amused by the insects in his world, but there's no player agency in it. I think if you had moved the Outsider's introduction to when you were still in prison (before your entire story was completely locked in place) that would eliminate most of my qualms with it. The acting and animation would still be cruddy though.

I guess contrast The Outsider, a man who likes to prod people randomly to see what happens, with the Daedric Princes' quests from Skyrim, a group who like to prod people randomly to see what happens. They do mischief right.

[brkl]

He'a just a dude who stops your game for no reason and listening to him is so aggravating that the time it takes to skip him feels forever.

He even looks less interesting than anyone else in the game.

[Twig]

I feel like I answered your questions, but to be succinct: not everything has to be important, which I agreed with. However, if you present something as a major subplot and it ends as a zero-sum endeavor where its inclusion means nothing and changes nothing, then it wasn't really a major subplot was it?

I also agreed with you that the concept is not flawed. Its presentation and execution is flawed in large ways. It's fine that you were entertained by a man who was amused by the insects in his world, but there's no player agency in it. I think if you had moved the Outsider's introduction to when you were still in prison (before your entire story was completely locked in place) that would eliminate most of my qualms with it. The acting and animation would still be cruddy though.

I guess contrast The Outsider, a man who likes to prod people randomly to see what happens, with the Daedric Princes' quests from Skyrim, a group who like to prod people randomly to see what happens. They do mischief right.

I guess I was confused by this

Which is fine, you can want that, but it's awful design and storytelling.

Which seems to imply that you outright hate the very idea. I still think it implies that, but if you're saying that's not what you meant then, hurray!

As for the rest, I have no qualms with hating the implementation. I can certainly understand that. I only take issue with dismissal of the basic idea. But it is flawed. I'm more in love with the idea than I am with the way it was done here. (And I'm... not even really in love with it, per se, I just think it's neat.) SO I GUESS THAT'S THAT.

[brkl]

No, let's really drag this out.

[Twig]

That's constructive. That post had some intentional finality to it, and yet you feel the need to complain. I like it. It's very useful.

[brkl]

I felt your posts finality was premature. Otherwise it was satisfactory, even excellent, but the finality of it did not add anything to the experience of reading it.

[Twig]

Your face is your butt.

[Tundra]

i was playing Skyrim today after a hiatus and i kept thinking there needs to be a Dishonoured* Blink shout. combat would be amazing, along with stealth. oh god...

[brkl]

Your face is your butt.

That explains so many things.

[Badfinger]

I guess I was confused by this

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Which seems to imply that you outright hate the very idea. I still think it implies that, but if you're saying that's not what you meant then, hurray!

As for the rest, I have no qualms with hating the implementation. I can certainly understand that. I only take issue with dismissal of the basic idea. But it is flawed. I'm more in love with the idea than I am with the way it was done here. (And I'm... not even really in love with it, per se, I just think it's neat.) SO I GUESS THAT'S THAT.

I guess that IS that! Basically, my point is that if you like a dude that pulls strings for no reason whatsoever that's totally fine and has its place in games, but the way it was implemented in THIS game was pretty terrible. Which means I think we agree? Just not about the Outsider in Dishonored specifically.

ANYWAY, the reason I have resurrected this thread from the dead is because word just came out that Dishonored sold a face-butt load of copies and they're making a sequel. Let the weird speculation recommence!

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/11/28/dishonored-sold-an-awful-lot-of-copies-franchise-born/

[melmer]

If they're making another 'dishonoured' game, they have to use the outsider again. Probably flesh him out more. Perhaps the outsider is actually a psychic whale, that only appears to you in human form so not to freak you out.

They'll keep the same art style for sure.