Breaking Bad

[Gormongous]

After we finished watching this latest episode, one of my friends voiced how she really didn't like the ending.

 

We eventually boiled it down to her dislike of violence prevailing in a show that's usually so intellectual and character-driven. Me, I like when messy stuff like Tuco and the cartels intrudes on Walt's hermetically-sealed white-collar perfection of the drug trade, even if it's incongruous and even unthematic, but then again I've watched enough Justified and Sons of Anarchy that a gang of redneck Neo-Nazis storming an Indian reservation with assault rifles doesn't really rustle me.

 

I feel like I can finally see how the show's going to end and it's actually a bit of a relief. I really couldn't for a while there.

[Chris]

God this show has become fucking dumb. The end of this episode, just, christ. What a preposterous series of events. Also I can't seem to stop it now, even though I find it totally ludicrous at this point.

[Gormongous]

God this show has become fucking dumb. The end of this episode, just, christ. What a preposterous series of events. Also I can't seem to stop it now, even though I find it totally ludicrous at this point.

 

Just to clarify, by "preposterous" and "ludicrous" do you mean Jesse as agent provocateur, the reservation shootout that resulted, or both?

[Chris]

Just to clarify, by "preposterous" and "ludicrous" do you mean Jesse as agent provocateur, the reservation shootout that resulted, or both?

 

I don't even know, just everything.

Mainly the shootout I guess. Why did they come even after Walt said not to? Then when they got there, why did they all just stare at each other for a while and why didn't the cops make even the slightest attempt to act like cops in any way? Or something? And then after Walt was screaming saying to stop? I mean I guess they didn't want to put their guns down to get badges or whatever but I mean, the whole scene was just so transparently designed to result in a big explosive ending. Also there are three more episodes so I mean obviously this isn't actually going to end up the way it seems like it would actually end up if a bunch of guys with lots of practice shooting guns end up emptying that much ammunition at one another, which is to say, most of them die. Maybe they will, I don't know. This show loves to put its main characters in super high tension scenarios and let them get away from it though. I just never feel like anything is at stake anymore. Every single thing has been at stake a million times and then the stakes fall and it happens again and again.

[Gormongous]

I don't even know, just everything.

Mainly the shootout I guess. Why did they come even after Walt said not to? Then when they got there, why did they all just stare at each other for a while and why didn't the cops make even the slightest attempt to act like cops in any way? Or something? And then after Walt was screaming saying to stop? I mean I guess they didn't want to put their guns down to get badges or whatever but I mean, the whole scene was just so transparently designed to result in a big explosive ending. Also there are three more episodes so I mean obviously this isn't actually going to end up the way it seems like it would actually end up if a bunch of guys with lots of practice shooting guns end up emptying that much ammunition at one another, which is to say, most of them die. Maybe they will, I don't know. This show loves to put its main characters in super high tension scenarios and let them get away from it though. I just never feel like anything is at stake anymore. Every single thing has been at stake a million times and then the stakes fall and it happens again and again.

 

Well, Hank and Gomez didn't have the jurisdiction to make an arrest on reservation land, so that's why they didn't pull their badges. Not that the rednecks didn't just want the two guys to drop their guard when they reached for them. I'm not even sure whether or not a cop would flash a badge that would get him in trouble in the long term if it could help him avert a shootout in the short term, but I certainly do agree with you about how the shootout played. When I saw that one of those rednecks had an AA-12 and let loose at thirty paces, I knew that either Hank or Gomez should have ceased to exist. If the next episode doesn't have a cold open with both cops lying dead on the ground, I'll be right there with you about betrayed stakes.

 

 

EDIT:

[Joewintergreen]

I didn't really think it was out of character for the nazi dudes to show up even after Walt tried to call it off. Their priority is keeping Walt alive and available to cook for them, not doing what he says. I fully expected them to still come after he said not to

[Joewintergreen]

I theoretically agree about the plausibility of the shootout but I guess I'll wait to see how the rest of it goes

[Chris]

I didn't really think it was out of character for the nazi dudes to show up even after Walt tried to call it off. Their priority is keeping Walt alive and available to cook for them, not doing what he says. I fully expected them to still come after he said not to

 

Yeah I mean that definitely occurred to me, but it doesn't even matter, because we know that in reality what would happen if they succeed in keeping Walt alive, killing Jesse, and extracting Walt from police custody, is that they would just kind of yell at each other for a while, and Walt would say "The deal is off I told you not to come!!!!" and they would say "Well we did the job didn't we!!!!" and it wouldn't really make any difference because anything else that happens after that wouldn't really be predicated on the previous events, at least that's how I feel stuff has been going in this show for a while. It wouldn't really make much difference how they got to the next point in the chain, as long as they end up in a room where they can yell at each other about what kind of deal to make.

[melmer]

i don't think the nazis care about the deal at this point, they just want to watch him cook then when they feel they can copy what he does they off him as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jesse lives. Walt will have a massive change of heat when they're about to execute him and instead take him hostage as leverage to make Walt do the cook.

[gavku]

Maybe they were deliberately missing? Will grab them as hostages and force Walt to cook...or something.....argh

[Chris]

Basically, a bunch of shit will happen then it will end. I just want to know how they'll end it. 

 

I can't help feeling that if Walt dies it'll be close enough to a martyrdom (or at least interpreted as such by many, even if subconsciously) that the show will just end up a moral disaster. I feel like the only way for Walt to receive any sort of poetic justice at this point is for basically everyone he loves around him to die or be removed and for him to end up miserable. That's not because I think every story should end morally tidily (I don't, and besides which that's already impossible in this show), I just feel that Breaking Bad has pushed Walt's cartoonish supervillainy SO far and allowed him to get away with SO much that it would go beyond the pale for him to either 1) not get his comeuppance, or 2) simply get more Breaking Bad comeuppance, in which something ostensibly bad happens to him but ultimately he's still really fine. I'm sure there are other endings that would be satisfying other than the one I postulated, I'll just be bummed if it's any kind of copout.

[Joewintergreen]

I'm still enjoying the show a whole lot, and haven't taken issue with a lot of plausibility stuff that's grinding gears on the internet, but I am similarly concerned about the morality angle. I read a few threads about the show on the interwebs and even now, pre- potential martyrdom situation, a distressing amount of what I'm reading is people siding with Walt (often against Skylar) and viewing him as the hero of the show and an unambiguously good guy. I kind of agree also about the cartoonish supervillainy - I would have liked to see him eventually coming to the limit of his ability to self-justify his awful shit, and I thought that was going to happen with Jesse, but then he ordered his death without honestly seeming that conflicted about it. He has been a less interesting character from the start of this season, I think.

 

That quote from Vince Gilligan about the story being about "Mr Chips -> Scarface" makes me think that this final season was approached as "Okay, he's full-on evil Scarface now, write accordingly", abandoning a lot of complexity that I think the character still had as of season 4. 

[thestalkinghead]

for me breaking bad has always been set in the breaking bad universe (not reality) it is sort of the graphic novel of superheroes/supervillians

 

gun fights like that are never realistic, either hank dies, he surrenders or it was a dream, jesse looked like he was going to escape somehow, and Mr white is probably going to be so pissed he will be kidnapped and forced to cook.

[melmer]

Basically, a bunch of shit will happen then it will end.

 

Not unlike an average episode of idle thumbs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuFHDhGkCvU

[seamus2389]

Basically, a bunch of shit will happen then it will end. I just want to know how they'll end it. 

 

I can't help feeling that if Walt dies it'll be close enough to a martyrdom (or at least interpreted as such by many, even if subconsciously) that the show will just end up a moral disaster. I feel like the only way for Walt to receive any sort of poetic justice at this point is for basically everyone he loves around him to die or be removed and for him to end up miserable. That's not because I think every story should end morally tidily (I don't, and besides which that's already impossible in this show), I just feel that Breaking Bad has pushed Walt's cartoonish supervillainy SO far and allowed him to get away with SO much that it would go beyond the pale for him to either 1) not get his comeuppance, or 2) simply get more Breaking Bad comeuppance, in which something ostensibly bad happens to him but ultimately he's still really fine. I'm sure there are other endings that would be satisfying other than the one I postulated, I'll just be bummed if it's any kind of copout.

 

Part of me hopes that Breaking Bad punishes Walt the same way the Shield punishes Vic Mackey 

 putting him in the situation that he fought so hard to get away from which in Mackeys case was no longer a real cop, family in witness protection, seen as a disgrace by police and all his friends dead/imprisoned due to his actions

.

 

Also after the newest episode I am done watching this show cause I couldn't be bothered spending the time to watch the next 3 episodes, I'll just read the plot summaries  start re-watching the shield or 6 feet under . The more I think about this show the more I agree with that avclub article you posted about the case against the show. 

[thestalkinghead]

that episode left me stunned

 

i wonder if that last phone conversation with skylar was walt knowingly talking to the police and making sure skylar didn't get in trouble

[DaveC]

In the back of my mind that occurred to me, but at the time I wasn't sure. The consensus on the write-ups seems to be that it was a performance for the cops. Walt is surely smart enough to know that the police would be in the house at that point.. right?

 

I wasn't sure what we were supposed to think about Walt. After Hank was killed I thought we'd be getting a redemption tale, Walt Vs. Uncle Jack to the end. He'd already given in and has nothing more to lose. Then he signed Jesse's death warrant and he was back to full on Heisenberg. 

 

I got chills through most of this episode. Hank got a fitting, dignified death. Appropriate for his character (and necessary, I think, after all this song-and-dance buildup in the desert).

[thestalkinghead]

new prediction

 

[Twig]

that episode left me stunned

 

i wonder if that last phone conversation with skylar was walt knowingly talking to the police and making sure skylar didn't get in trouble

I don't think it's possible to see it any other way.

 

Re: the contentious thing from two episodes ago:

Yeah, when looking at it through the filter called reality, the shootout was pretty dumb, but I've had a huge degree of suspension of disbelief throughout this entire series. (Admittedly, I've had to increase said suspension as time has gone on.) It didn't really bother me, I guess.

 

The only thing I'm worried about is the ending. Everything up until now has been great for me.

[thestalkinghead]

I don't think it's possible to see it any other way.

yeah i guess it is kind of obvious, but at some points it's like he forgot why he did all of it in the first place, his family, but i guess he hasn't totally forgot about that

[BigJKO]

Oh man, I did not take it as an act, until I read this thread.

My mind immediately went "welp, he's finally snapped into full-on selfish, abusive mode" He's already acted abusive towards his wife, but always in the guise of "the greater good/taking care of my family". So here, I thought he'd just snapped completely.

I can see how it plays the other way now, though. Although, with a witness to the fight and the kidnapping I don't see why the police needs any reassurance that Walt is an abusive bastard. Also there's really nothing left to implicate Skylar anymore.. is there?

Here's a great write-up on the phone call. http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/culture/2013/09/last-nights-breaking-bad-that-mindbending-phone-call.html?mobify=0&intcid=full-site-mobile&mobify=0

Predictably there are people on twitter who just agreed with all the abusive stuff said in the phone call...

Re: Chris' thoughts on how ridiculous last episode's cliffhanger was and how the show sets stakes and doesn't follow through. I wonder how you felt about this one. Because I felt it followed through with everything and more of what was set up in the cliffhanger..

And now.. it can only end in tragedy. There's no redemption. Nothing left.

[brkl]

There's plenty to implicate Skylar since she was laundering money for him. She won't avoid jail unless her lawyer can make a strong case that she was too scared to go to the cops.

It's not just the phone call, he took the baby for this reason.

[thestalkinghead]

There's plenty to implicate Skylar since she was laundering money for him. She won't avoid jail unless her lawyer can make a strong case that she was too scared to go to the cops.

It's not just the phone call, he took the baby for this reason.

i disagree with that spoiler

i think he has become far more emotionally driven as time has gone on, and he took the baby in a moment of madness, but it was her cries for mama that made him realise how bad what he did was and return her

[Nachimir]

I thought that was a suitable denouement to the episode before, and I'm glad Chris' prediction of

 

everyone getting away from the high stakes didn't come true. Them coming made sense to me at the time because the best cook they know was obviously at risk and had said nothing to reassure them. After this week's episode it makes even more sense though: They're ambitious, there are quite a lot of them, they want to be dominant, and they'd been failing to cook well. There's no way they'd let Walt disentangle himself under those circumstances, and while they might let him feel he's in charge, actually acting like that is not their MO.

 

The main conflict is now between Walt and the racists. Like the cartel, they aren't an average gang and Walt might struggle to take them out himself without Mike's help. I'd guess after learning that he's gone, and especially if Jesse shows Todd how to cook properly, they'll do what they can to ensure he can never start a rival operation again: trash his house, humiliate his family, spread the story. I think he's just heading back for revenge with that big machine gun.

 

Interviews seem to have implied that Breaking Bad will be a tragedy.

 

Going by the flash forwards from the first half of this series, his relocation and fake identity succeed. But also going by the state of the house, the neighbour looking so shocked, this is going to end tragically for his family in some way (Not to mention fan theories pointing to the deaths of other major characters: colour symbolism and Walt taking on aspects of those he's killed).

 

Seriously don't click this spoiler if you don't want to indulge in fan theories pointing to further character deaths:

 

Pink seems to have an association with death. Holly is always shown wearing it, and last episode, Saul showed up in a pink shirt for the first time. Walt has also exhibited specific traits of those he's killed, sometimes in contradiction to his earlier behaviour. In the flash forwards his fake identity has Skyler's maiden name, and he's wearing a coat very much like Jesse's. He's acted to defend his family from the police now they're involved, but in doing so and having previously killed or alienated whatever allies he had, has pretty much fucked any chance of defending her from the bikers. I think that's the loop that'll close.

[Gormongous]

Welp.