Can anyone use Dreamweaver?

[Nappi]

I just don't understand why someone would have to use Notepad for making a website.

[MrHoatzin]

Notepad does wacky things with line endings and encoding. Anything is better than notepad.

Sublime doesn't do diff stuff as far as I know and a cursory search makes it seem like it might be a functionality to show up at some point, as a plugin or natively, as there is chatter on the forums about it. I very seldom do comparisons, and I throw files at kdiff for that... even though there is supposed to be something in xcode that is allegedly better. I am sometimes lazy in the wrong kinds of ways.

[juv3nal]

Sublime doesn't do diff stuff as far as I know and a cursory search makes it seem like it might be a functionality to show up at some point, as a plugin or natively, as there is chatter on the forums about it. I very seldom do comparisons, and I throw files at kdiff for that... even though there is supposed to be something in xcode that is allegedly better. I am sometimes lazy in the wrong kinds of ways.

I played around with it a bit and sublime does do a diff, it's just this inline flat diff instead of the nice one-file-on-each-side-of-the-page semi-synched scrolling thing that eclipse does.

[James]

I'm no sort of expert with this (or any) sort of thing, but to the extent that I muddle my way through, I do pretty nicely with Notepad++ and Chrome's element inspector – it's so handy to be able to fiddle about in-browser without having to constantly go back and forth saving and viewing over and over. Sometimes my even less technically-savvy co-workers contribute things done in some sort of WYSIWYG editor, and the code is invariably an absolute goddamned travesty. All that <o:> nonsense MS Word throws in for no useful reason disgusts me in particular.

That's an absurd comparison. The only difference between Notepad and Eclipse when it comes to pure HTML is syntax highlighting.

I don't know about you, but I find it pretty infuriating to work without auto-indenting. It's a little thing, but it drives me up the wall when it's missing. There's a bunch of other stuff, too, like FTP integration, superior find-and-replace, line numbering, better navigation (Notepad jumps over whole reams of text if you try to use ctrl + cursor keys), non-trivial undo history, and so on. All small things, yes, but more than just syntax highlighting, and cumulatively a big difference. I guess my point is that I don't know why you pick out syntax highlighting in particular. I guess it's probably the most useful of the lot (although I'd probably give it up ahead of auto-indenting), but it's not like it's in a completely different class of necessity.

I probably don't know what I'm talking about, though. I'm really just an idiot in disguise.

EDIT: I forgot about half the reason I even posted:

What is this 1x1 pixel bullshit??!

Spacer GIFs! I'd completely forgotten about them! They struck me as the most idiotic thing in the world even when they were relevant; by now I'm pretty sure they're just a ridiculous relic. Even the most crude of web browsers has some sort of implementation of CSS at this stage. I'd be seriously concerned about any sort of course that teaches them in any context other than historical. Or am I wrong? Please don't tell me I'm wrong.

Edited April 26, 2012 by JamesM

[MrHoatzin]

Even the most crude of web browsers has some sort of implementation of CSS at this stage.

Hahahahah. Yes, browsers have had CSS for a while now... you have to go back to the 90s to find a browser that doesn't. Spacer gifs are not a thing any more, unless one has slept for a decade.

[juv3nal]

Hahahahah. Yes, browsers have had CSS for a while now... you have to go back to the 90s to find a browser that doesn't. Spacer gifs are not a thing any more, unless one has slept for a decade.

As recently as support for IE6 (which depending on who you ask may be a decade ago, but probably isn't), spacer gifs were useful for the ie6 png hack. Spacer gifs for layout may not have been a thing for a decade though.

[toblix]

Okay, most people have already mentioned what I'm about to, but anyway:

That's an absurd comparison. [...] Yes, it would be dumb not to make it easier on yourself, but it's nothing like creating the text from a command line.

Maybe not my strongest comparison ever, but I wasn't really trying to compare Notepad and echoing text into file, but rather to maybe clumsily point out that I wasn't saying Notepad is unusable as a HTML editing tool (let's just pretend I'm also including CSS and javascript whenever I reference HTML), but that choosing to use it can only be based on ignorance of better tools, weird restrictions in the tools available to you, or some sort of masochism (as you admitted, though I think it applies in all contexts, not just professional web development). Notepad does almost nothing more than letting you put text into a file and edit it at random locations. You can also write standards compliant HTML with a hex editor – my point was (supposed to be) that no matter how good you are, and how well you know your standards, and how fast you type, there are better tools that will let you work faster. In reality, you will make mistakes, and Notepad won't tell you, ever. Just to repeat myself once more, knowing how to write HTML without the help of an IDE (or syntax highlighting or WHATEVER) is great, congratulations, but you'll still be an even better developer if you use more advanced tools when you can. I think we're possibly in agreement here.

The only difference between Notepad and Eclipse when it comes to pure HTML is syntax highlighting.

Okay, so either:

1. We're using different Notepads
   
2. You're using a very old or broken version of Eclipse
   
3. You don't know what syntax highlighting means
   
4. I don't know what syntax highlighting means
   

Also, if you look further than pure HTML, and consider what using an IDE gives you (first thing off the top of my head, a project structure that lets you search and replace across multiple files), Eclipse is infinitely better than Notepad. I know it's probably not the best tool for static web development, since I haven't done much of that.

Additional features, such as debugging and autocomplete, only come in handy when you're using PHP or ASP.Net.

Why? You have to explain this ridiculous statement to me; additional features, like autocomplete, are never handy in HTML (,CSS and javascript)?

It would be perfectly acceptable to piece together a small site, like Yufter's proposing, in Notepad if that was all you had access to.

Yes, but only then. Again, I think we agree.

[MrHoatzin]

As recently as support for IE6 (which depending on who you ask may be a decade ago, but probably isn't), spacer gifs were useful for the ie6 png hack. Spacer gifs for layout may not have been a thing for a decade though.

Yeah, I didn't really count all that retrofitting garbage for zombie browsers that refuse to die... It is not like one had to manually put every one of the blank pixel gifs in place on the site for the png fix to work. I have never thought of these as spacer gifs when in the png fix context.

[toblix]

Sir your signature is all the way to the right.

[MrHoatzin]

Sir your signature is all the way to the right.

Eh?

[toblix]

Eh?

Your forum signature is all the way to the right. If it's always been like that, please ignore me.

[MrHoatzin]

Your forum signature is all the way to the right. If it's always been like that, please ignore me.

I put it there at some point myself. Through the power of the

tag which for all I know is prolly a <font> tag.

EDIT: Nope it's not! Woo!

EDIT EDIT: But the tag totes is.

[Marek]

Just FYI, I read this entire thread.

I use Notepad++ and am very happy with it.

[toblix]

Also FYI I've totally been an angry nerd in this thread and apologise.

[Twig]

I am a huge fan of Sublime Text 2, an heir to the awesome TextMate. It is multi-platform and free while still in Beta. It is slightly wackily supported because of that. It supports textmate plugins, so any textmate bundles you can just drop at it and it will play nice with them.

Someone on my game team (school game team, that is) showed that to me recently. It looks amazing. I need to actually get around to installing it some day.

[juv3nal]

Someone on my game team (school game team, that is) showed that to me recently. It looks amazing. I need to actually get around to installing it some day.

No install needed; there's a portable version. Just unzip and run.

[Salka]

Wow, I posted this thread initially because I had no idea about anything. Now I realise I know less than I ever thought I could.

[Wrestlevania]

{university comedy bollocks}

What’s the reasoning behind this bit of work in particular? This will help you present your work online, definitely, but it’s possibly not going to get you an interview as a web developer.

I interview (and later mentor) potential web developers as a key part of my day job at a decent-sized web agency, and this brief won’t help hopeful students get a foot in the door easily. It’s not setting them on the right sort of path at all, because none of the key points in the brief are relevant today. They could harm your interview chances, depending on what sort of company you apply to.

Having said all that, it is good that you’re being encouraged to create your own web pages. But the quality of teaching for this set of skills, at this level, is worrying (mainly because I basically had the same brief when I was at uni in 1998).

PS: I am not some elitist arsehole employer. You can learn all this stuff on the job, and I really enjoy sharing these skills with people who interview well and have a keen interest.

PPS: I really hope I don’t sound a cunt either.

[Salka]

Well I'm doing an illustration degree, so I can understand that it's relevant to have a website. But I'm an illustrator, not a web developer, so I object to this being a mandatory part of the course as it is. As in, if we fail this we fail the entire course. There are some people on my course who are traditional illustrators and don't even have their own PC.

It makes it worse that we are being taught such an archaic method of going about it, using hideous templates that would just make us look ridiculous if we ever displayed a portfolio using them.

I don't understand why they don't just show people Flickr and Blogger/Wordpress/Posterous or something.

It was also thrown at us from nowhere a few weeks back, with no prior warning as to this being part of our course or something that our award would depend on.

[Brannigan]

Ugh, every time I see this thread, this pops in my head, and it's terrible.

jPWNsGFXCZk

[Twig]

No install needed; there's a portable version. Just unzip and run.

Well, same deal. I need to "set it up in some fashion" is what I really meant. U:

[ThunderPeel2001]

Notepad does wacky things with line endings and encoding. Anything is better than notepad.

TextEdit does whacky things with line ending and encoding, but Notepad doesn't.

Spacer gifs are not a thing any more, unless one has slept for a decade.

Actually spacer gifs are still alive and well in emails. I recently had to use them for something because Outlook 2007 and 2010 use the Microsoft Word rendering engine.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Yes, but only then. Again, I think we agree.

Yup, I think we do.

[subbes]

TextEdit does whacky things with line ending and encoding, but Notepad doesn't.

Learn you both the history of CRLF and weep, because line endings will provide fresh ammo for the perpetual Mac/Win/*nix wars.

Oh, harken unto the lamentations of the mothers as their children march to fuel a new generation of the Holy OS Wars!

Elders are gone from the gate,
        Young men from their music.
The joy of our hearts has ceased;
        Our dancing has been turned into mourning.

[syntheticgerbil]

It makes it worse that we are being taught such an archaic method of going about it, using hideous templates that would just make us look ridiculous if we ever displayed a portfolio using them.

I don't understand why they don't just show people Flickr and Blogger/Wordpress/Posterous or something.

I thought Dreamweaver was almost made solely for people who needed websites but did no not need to know how make them professionally, like artists (unless you're an artist that works on websites).

But a lot of artists do just have their portfolio on a wordpress or blogger now anyway. Then after that you repost your work to CGSociety, DeviantArt, Vimeo, Facebook, and whatever else. I think if this is what you need Dreamweaver for, everyone in this thread is overcomplicating it unless you are looking to become a professional web designer or are interested in having a slicker portfolio site than most artists with an image gallery and contact info.

Also I seem to know a lot of people who use Cargo Collective for their websites, but I don't really like the given templates myself.