Are YOU a rapist?

[Salka]

CELEB Big Brother star Ulrika Jonsson has revealed how she believed for years that a traumatic date-rape ordeal was her own fault.

In a TV interview she said: “I felt I’d allowed myself into a situation which I shouldn't have. I blamed myself."

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2333342.ece

You blamed yourself did you? Let's look at the circumstances leading up to this alleged rape.

The tearful telly star told how she was so paralysed with fear during the attack that she could not tell the man to stop.

And incredibly when the attack was over her attacker suggested they go and watch a film.

So you didn't tell him to stop and he then asked if you wanted to see a film. It sounds almost like he had no idea of the atrocious attack he had just carried out!

‘ I don't think at that stage there was this definition of a ‘date rape’ – of knowing somebody, of trusting somebody and somebody not understanding when you say no. ’

“I said ‘I can't go’. I don’t remember what I said but I stayed and he left. I actually don’t think he realised what he’d done.”

He didn't realise what he'd done??? But surely you gave some kind of sign that you didn't want to have sex with him??

Her attacker came up to her hotel room before a date they had arranged.

Okay so he's your date, not a stranger.

“He got very amorous and I panicked because to me that was not what I was expecting.

Well, okay, you were kissing and then groping occurred. I guess if that's not what you were expecting to happen, it could be a bit of a surprise.

“I panicked to the extent my voice wasn’t working – I couldn’t get anything out. I felt like I was screaming and saying ‘No, no, no!’ I probably was at the beginning.”

You FELT like saying no? You were PROBABLY saying no?? But you might not have. And he didn't seem to have any idea that he'd raped you, which kind of lends itself to the theory that you didn't say no.

The 41-year-old explained that the full horror of the rape did not initially sink in: “I'd only been sexually active for about a year and a half so this was quite an overwhelming experience.”

She said: “I don't think at that stage there was this definition of a ‘date rape’ – of knowing somebody, of trusting somebody and somebody not understanding when you say no.”

Or when you FEEL like saying no, but actually don't, because men should be able to read your mind or something. "Are you okay?" "Yes I'm FINE." "Do you want sex?" "Yes that sounds FINE."

Ulrika did not tell the police about her assault because she wrongly blamed herself – and continued to do so for years.

Funny that.

I think it's pretty fucking dodgy to call that rape.

It seems that the problem here isn't rape, it's Ulrikka being too retarded to give any decent indication that she doesn't want to have sex with the guy she's dating. Man I'm so angry, this serves me right for reading the sun.

Rape is really serious and the word 'rapist' probably shouldn't be used to describe a guy who had sex with a girl he was dating, who failed utterly to convey that she didn't want to have sex.

Edited March 21, 2009 by Yufster

[DanJW]

I'm of the opinion that a lack of 'no' does not mean 'yes' (trouble is that 'yes' is normally supplied by actions rather than words). But this does sound more like a case of a woman having sex and then regretting it afterwards. The same thing happened to a boy in Southampton - girl regretted sleeping with him, called police, boy went to prison for 2 years before being acquitted on appeal.

False rape claims hurts real rape victims.

edit: also, new rape laws in the UK may mean that legally, a woman is incapable of giving consent while under the influence of alchahol. So even if she says 'yes', you had better breathalyse her first.

Strangely, the same rule does not apply to men. It seems that for men, arousal counts as consent (which could make viagra a date rape drug?)

[Nachimir]

Yes, calling that rape is really fucking dodgy. It trivialises it more than crap casually made rape jokes in the ign.com thread, while obnoxiously putting up doubts around some very normal aspects of male sexuality.

There's a whole spectrum of creepy and sometimes abusive behaviour that isn't rape. I quite liked this piece on "not rape".

Men can get really fucking scary if they think they're going to have sex and suddenly think they're going to be denied it. That women sometimes flirt and go much further for attention and fun only is also stupid; I've known a bunch of girls who seemed to think that, if they kissed a guy, he wouldn't assume she wanted to fuck him too. Duh.

There are profound misunderstandings of sexuality between genders. I think people in the UK and America are generally shit at dealing with, talking about and having sex.

[brkl]

Man that was a difficult read.

[gdf]

Yeah, tough read Nachimir. Makes me think of all the girls I know who've had stuff like this happen to them, never really thought about how widespread it was.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Yuffy: Generally a look of fear, comfortableness or even lack of eagerness should alert a man that's something wrong. Don't you think?

Secondly, you've played right into the hands of that fine pile of reportage, The Sun. Why are you assuming that anything it's saying is even close to being accurate? Every single quote pulled from that interview was separated from every other quote, an old trick that allows you to pile all the juicy stuff together to support the chosen tone of your article.

Seeing that we can't tell if this actually captured the essence of what was said or not, what's the point of even bringing it up?

You seem to be angry at Ulrika (and other women who talk about similar 'date rape' issues), when you should be angry at the newspaper: they're the ones who made a big deal out of the issue.

[Nachimir]

Yeah, tough read Nachimir. Makes me think of all the girls I know who've had stuff like this happen to them, never really thought about how widespread it was.

It can get awkward for any man who's aware of that to balance being sexually forward against doubts.

Ex-girlfriend once talking to me regarding filthy thoughts I was having about girls: "If they're interested they're probably thinking something much filthier about you".

[syntheticgerbil]

Ex-girlfriend once talking to me regarding filthy thoughts I was having about girls: "If they're interested they're probably thinking something much filthier about you".

This is more of my interest for the remainder of the thread.

[Historical_Society]

It can get awkward for any man who's aware of that to balance being sexually forward against doubts.

Ex-girlfriend once talking to me regarding filthy thoughts I was having about girls: "If they're interested they're probably thinking something much filthier about you".

I've had similar conversations. I always feel like women are pretty much like an unreliable narrator, so many times I've been told one thing that when tried has backfired with worse implications.

I've come to the conclusion that playing ignorant will prevent any sense of misinterpration by forcing them to be explicit instead of skirting the subject. Men are essentially caught between a rock and hard place with women it comes to things of that nature by the atricious things men have done as you've mentioned Nachimir when the possibility of sex enters the conversation.

[ThunderPeel2001]

you've mentioned Nachimir when the possibility of sex enters the conversation

Interesting...

[Nachimir]

Men are essentially caught between a rock and hard place with women it comes to things of that nature by the atricious things men have done

i.e., if you make a simple and even trivial mistake or misapprehension, if that woman is connected to your friends in any way it can severely dent your reputation. Women outside your social net are much less risky, but harder to meet unless you're not shy about approaching a lot of strangers. Or in other words, catching women with a net is not a good idea

However, things can go much easier if you meet through friends or get set up, because mutual connections make trust easier. On that basis, last year I figured that meeting women through friends would be the best and easiest way, however the games industry is just full of cock and it seems my home city has gone the same way :[

[OssK]

Thing is, it happened to me, I didn't want to have sex and the girl was so into it that I couldn't really stop her... Would not ever in a thousand years cross my mind to call it a rape...

za7jQ1s1BV0

[Coldkill]

The problem is, if the guy says no, it doesn't count. But anyway, this stuff does happen, but people really need to like learn self defence or something... maybe they should teach that in the learning places they call schools.

[ysbreker]

What? Sexual education in school!? Are you crazy! Don't warp their fragile little minds you pervert!*

* As said by the classic conservative parent.

[syntheticgerbil]

They should make "celeb" mean "celebate." I'm so sick of that word.

[James]

"It'll take your absence of refusal as implicit consent. In the hole." - IGN.com

Sorry.

[gdf]

At first I was like this:

Then I was like this:

[ThunderPeel2001]

The problem is, if the guy says no, it doesn't count.

Really?

[DanJW]

Really?

That is the stance of almost all legal systems, yes (at least in heterosexual intercourse). Like I said, apparently erection counts as consent.

Southpark did an excellent take on a real case of a female teacher having an affair with an under-age student, and the complete lack of sincerity that this statuary rape was accorded (compared to cases in which the genders are reversed). All Southpark did was make the boy a bit younger still.

[Historical_Society]

That is the stance of almost all legal systems, yes (at least in heterosexual intercourse). Like I said, apparently erection counts as consent.

Southpark did an excellent take on a real case of a female teacher having an affair with an under-age student, and the complete lack of sincerity that this statuary rape was accorded (compared to cases in which the genders are reversed). All Southpark did was make the boy a bit younger still.

I would like to mention, that I did know a teacher, female, who had sex with one of her students,male. She was fired, but no legal actions were pressed against her.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Oh, the poor plight of men. Raped left, right and centre with nobody to stand up for us. Makes me weep.

[DanJW]

Yes, ridicule is the major weapon used against the male species these days. Well spotted Thunderpeel.

Women have had it much worse for the past few thousand years. but I still think there is a psychological crisis of masculinity going on right now. Misandry is everywhere in our culture.

[Salka]

The thing that annoys me is that the moral of that rape story is that Ulrikka is a blameless victim. She says she had to learn not to blame herself. FALSE.

Women aren't helpless little puppets, we're perfectly capable of saying NO when we don't want to have sex. She didn't do this, she didn't give a reasonable indication that she didn't want sex - the guy didn't even know he'd "raped" her. So therefore she does have a certain amount of blame. She's responsible for herself, it's not up to the guy to make these decisions for her and she shouldn't let him if she doesn't want to have sex with him. She should have been stronger and there doesn't seem to be a reasonable excuse as to why she wasn't. Whether or not she thinks or feels she got raped, she DOES shoulder some blame for being such a pussy about it and letting it happen when it was utterly preventable - all she had to do was say no thanks, I don't want sex.

It annoys me to see someone claim they got raped under such easily avoided circumstances and then claim that they are blameless.

I work in the games industry, I'm usually one of the few girls in an office full of men with varying degrees of autism or social failness. If I had a penny for every time a guy got a little bit carried away with me - even just hugging me a little too long or trying to kiss me on the cheek one too many times (or trying to trying to feed me wine and cocaine, whatever), I'd be a millionaire. I'm the least confrontational person ever (in real life ¬¬) but I still managed to politely and firmly handle those situations. If I had have given in to the the persistent and pushy methods of the cocaine guy, and had sex with him, then I would really have only had myself to blame if I felt bad about it afterwards. It wouldn't make him less of a dick, but it would still be my fault I'd just had sex with someone.

EDIT: Actually I'd have about 10p, but the hyperbole helped me make my point.

Edited March 26, 2009 by Yufster

[OssK]

Well... If trying to hump you makes you rich, I can help you...

* DING * you just earned a penny, way to go !

On a more serious note: I agree, I think when you feel in danger, It'll anyway trigger a reaction of some sort, danger being, suffering or being submitted to a treatment you don't want... Any reaction really, maybe she... wanted it to happen ?

Yeah, I know, when I say that I position myself on the "she had it coming, I could see her ankles underneath her skirt !" side of the coin but hey... To go back to the original question, yes, I am a Rapist °o°

[Historical_Society]

Not to derail you yufster, and I completely understand the emotional distress that could be associated with such things. But as a person not involved in the game industry, I thought you were kidding for a second when you mentioned cocaine, but you were serious. I assumed weed was at most a drug of choice, and LSD for the Katamari team, but cocaine, at least to me, seems a bit intense. Especially for a guy who either programs or creates meshes. Once again, I apologize for derailing, but that made my mind blown.