3 years in prison for having the 'wrong' opinion?

[Salka]

Ok it did. But today i read this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6196073.stm

Is it just me, or is this grossly unfair?

Maybe this guy had skewed views, but we all have our different opinions. Yes, WW2 was a terrible event, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't all be allowed have our own view on it. This man got jailed for writing about things from a different point of view than most of us...

Personally, I find the fact he wrote a book about WW2 from Hitler's point of view fascinating. Doesn't mean I agree with it, but if you're interested in that kind of thing (which I am), it's interesting to see how different people think about it.

Also, as far as I know, he didn't deny the Holocaust, he simply claimed that Hitler had had no knowledge of it and that it was orchestrated by Himmler. He offered a monetary reward for anybody who COULD prove that Hitler had known about the holocaust, and nobody could prove it. that just proves that nobody can really be sure... while I personally believe that Hitler DID know quite well, I respect the opinion of anybody who believes otherwise. After all, Hitler was an evil man, but he was also surrounded by many other extremely evil and powerful men...

I don't know. I just don't think that guy deserved to be jailed for having an opinion. He never hurt anybody, all he did was have an unfashionable opinion... this guy seems to be a bit of a nutcase, but the fact is that he never hurt anybody, his books were well researched and... where do you draw the line between free speech and crime?

This guy is an ass but... I don't know about 3 years in prison for it. I sit in an office with a bigger asshole them him every day...

[Roderick]

It's ridiculous that he was imprisoned for it. I think legal action can be taken up to some point, maybe of a reprimanding, but not an actual punishment. Not unless he was inciting people to become anti-semite terrorists or something, which he clearly wasn't.

Typically, the big Jewish lobbies are 'displeased' with his release. Go back to your own little race-bullying in Palestine and quit whining

[Wrestlevania]

[Where] do you draw the line between free speech and crime?

Haven't a clue. National governments should publish daily blogs indicating where they've decided that line is for today.

Seriously, I don't believe there is any 'line' -- it's down to plain bad luck on the part of the accused when it comes to their day in court (and the small detail of whether it's a crime in the present country in the first place). Yes, the man is portrayed as being detached from reality somewhat, but I don't agree with him being imprisoned for it. That's just plain irresponsible in my view, when you consider the extremely high levels of racism and violence within the prison system.

There's nothing to say such experiences haven't in fact compounded his views on The Holocaust into something sinister now, either.

[miffy495]

Yeah, if you get sent to prison for saying there may be a conspiracy, by the time you're out there won't be any room left in your mind for doubt.

[Roderick]

But that's the problem with all prisons; they breed hostility and polarisation. It's basically how Al Qaida was created; one too many torture camp by an Egyptian dictator installed by the American government.

You reap what you sow.

[Marek]

Wow how bizarre. Sounds to me like he wasn't denying the holocaust, but questioned certain facts about it that everyone assume are true. Nutjob or not, that's a valid thing to discuss.

In my opinion Germany and Austria often go too far in clamping down on any hint of holocaust denial or neonazism or even crime or violence in general. The countries are so paranoid about history one day repeating itself and are so obsessed with pacifism that it may in fact have an opposite effect.

Just look at the way Germany responds to violent crimes alledgedly caused by games. Germany already has some of the most strict rules on in-game violence in the world, and some politicians are now moving towards an outright ban on violent games, and yet it hasn't stopped school shooting or other horrible things that also sadly happen to occasionally occur in other countries.

What pisses me off most about that news post is the jewish lobbyist though. 99% of the world believes the holocaust happened, so why don't you fuck off. The Israeli government and jewish lobbyists might in fact be the new assholes in the world, abusing people's goodwill and/or fear of being labeled antisemitist.

Anyway........

[castorp]

Maybe it's just my german conditioning but statements like the above along the lines of 'we know you jews got screwed by history so stop rubbing it in our collective faces' with a mild undertone of 'semitic-world-conspiracy' sound a bit, uh, anti-Semitic. Nonono, I don't call any of you that, it's just this line of thought that rings my alarm bell.

In a pluralistic society every group has its voice and for that matter tries to be as loud as possible. What mechanics are at work when one voice gets heard as to loud (and annoying) I can't clearly point out, but one thought is that it might be in the hearers perception. Christan idea and reasoning is all around but when a jewish interest group speaks up it seems like a big deal, it gets a lot of attention and than this to-much attention stirs up hostility.

[vimes]

I think it's one of Woody Allen's characters who says

"The problem with us Jews is that we can't order a Sandwich without mentionning the Shoah"

For me, it sums up the situation pretty well.

[Roderick]

Christan idea and reasoning is all around but when a jewish interest group speaks up it seems like a big deal, it gets a lot of attention and than this to-much attention stirs up hostility.

Nono, I'm pretty much against all unreasonable religious lobbies. Or industrial lobbies for that matter.

I'm not against jews themselves, as persons, but against their government and bureaucratic bodies, in much the same way that I have no personal grudge against Americans but can be often heard lamenting their woeful leaders. In the case of the Jews, it's really that they're abusing their position to getting away with stuff. It was totally outrageous in the first place that they were allowed to invade Israel out of some ancient claim to it, mostly because everyone felt (justified) pity for them after the second World War (obviously way more complicated stuff that I don't understand was going on here). As they are today, they (the officials) seem completely two-faced to me: on one side they're still playing the 'everyone-is-against-us-and-we're-so-innocent' card, and at the same time they're still pestering the Palestinian and Libanese people with their unchecked military superiority. As long as they still have hundreds of Palestinian war prisoners in their dungeons, they don't have the right to get all upset whenever a swastika appears somewhere, or use anti-semitism as a rhetorical stranglehold to forcefully silence even the slightest bit of commentary on them. Quit being so sanctimonious and own up to the fact that you've taken on aspects of the ones that once sought to destroy you.

[Spaff]

I'm just stepping in here to say: "everyone be friendly". I doubt we're going to solve the Middle East conflict here on Idle Forums (although that would be awsome), so just be gentle with each other. This stuff tends to upset people easily, so first sign of trembing lower lips and this thread goes bye-bye

Also, this is Dan posting... I have temporarily taken over Spaff's body. It feels itchy.

[hermes]

yeah - it is a very sensitive issue that is very difficult to discuss in any constructive way. If you want to continue please discern between the terms zionists and jews. Zionism is a political movement that worked towards and constructed the state of Israel. It is mostly the zionists who are responsible for how Israel looks today. Jews is a bunch of a lot of different people - and generalizing about jews is as narrow-minded (and probably an even more sensitive issue) as generalizing about muslims.

[twmac]

Very briefly, speaking as a person with Jewish heritage but very little connection to the Jewish faith, can we get upset about people using the Hakenkreuz and not the swastika please?

Swastika is a symbol that in many religions of power/life and derives from two interlocking rivers that are meant to be an analogy for the broken circle of life. People who refer to the swastika as a symbol of the nazis should try visiting any Victorian house in England or if they fancy a trip further back in time, the ruins of Pompei that feature hundreds of 'broken circle' swastikas.

The hakenkreuz was something Hitler subverted, along with many other ideologies within his preaching, drawing from many religious sources (the arian race were originally from the middle East, hence Smantha Mumba in 'The Time Machine' film), and thus exposing a whole load of hypocrisy in the supposedly anti religious facist party.

I would get a Swastika tattoo, but wish to avoid the irony of being beaten up by people who probably come from the same roots as me.

[Git Force Gemini]

May I bring up the similar issue of the (supposed) Armenian (sic) massacre by the Turks. The issue is highly sensitive one as it puts in question the latter's joining of thr E.U. As always, it isn't a matter of moral sensitivity but political leverage.

[Git Force Gemini]

Oh, and happy new year.