Why BG&E failed - written by an UbiSoft PR employee

[Marek]

http://jumpbuttonmag.com/?p=25

[Wrestlevania]

I'm not in the habit of (knowingly) kicking a good game while it's down, but I honestly don't consider Beyond Good & Evil as anything more than a triumph of high production values. The game refuses to go away though, so maybe I need to play it through again and see if it 'clicks' this time.

I think that maybe Ubisoft's biggest mistake was choice of platform; if they'd made the title a GameCube exclusive, then I'm convinced they would have had a rapt audience.

[Marek]

It was on GC. (And PS2. And PC. And Xbox.)

I don't see what making it a GC exclusive would have accomplished other than cutting sales for the other platforms.

[Wrestlevania]

It was on GC. (And PS2. And PC. And Xbox.)

I know (I played it on PC). I meant for it to be platform-exclusive on GameCube.

I don't see what making it a GC exclusive would have accomplished other than cutting sales for the other platforms.

My thinking was that, what with the dearth of GameCube titles relative to either Xbox or Playstation 2, BG&E might have garnered more attention had it been a platform exclusive for the GameCube.

But maybe you're right; 'attention' - in the media at least - didn't seem to be the main issue with the game not selling very well. (And yes, I did read the article before responding originally. Just wasn't a very good response.)

[miffy495]

Hmmmm... I just learned that none of my roommates have played BG&E. All three of us have our own 'cubes from before we moved in together. I think this disc needs to be moved around from room to room over the next month or so.

[elmuerte]

yep... BG&E failed... because I liked it, that's wasn't the deal

[SpiderMonkey]

It's the usual "game has no one-line sales pitch" argument, right? Seems common to explanations of why critically successful games get abysmal sales. Always an explanation, but no one ever offers a solution. Why is it only games that struggle to sell their more complex products, I wonder? Or is that just a perception on my part?

[Oath]

It's the usual "game has no one-line sales pitch" argument, right? Seems common to explanations of why critically successful games get abysmal sales. Always an explanation, but no one ever offers a solution. Why is it only games that struggle to sell their more complex products, I wonder? Or is that just a perception on my part?

It certainly isn't. A lot of pretty complex strategy games and RPG's sell decent amounts. Even though there are a lot of simpler games that sell more, they manage to push some units, just as it's sometimes books on the strategies of World War 2 and not always the detective stories and the Tom Clancy novels that people buy.

There is a market for more complex games, examples such as Eve-Online prove that, and it's just a matter of finding your crowd and getting them interested in your product and maybe attracting some new people over time.

[MrHoatzin]

An earnest sentiment but an uninspired article. Also the graphic design on that site sucks monkey balls.

I hope the game picks up a little late steam through Gametap or something like that.

[SpiderMonkey]

There is a market for more complex games, examples such as Eve-Online prove that, and it's just a matter of finding your crowd and getting them interested in your product and maybe attracting some new people over time.

I dunno, I think I mean a different kind of "complex". I can pitch most strategy games, most RPGs and Eve Online in one sentence. I can't pitch Psychonauts in one sentence. At least not in a way that really gets to the heart of the game. Same goes for BG&E, this guy seems to be saying (haven't played the game yet, please don't ban me. )

[Jayel]

I didn't like Beyond Good & Evil as much as Anachronox. I find those two very similar in many ways. I agree with the article - words fail to describe those games and I have a hard time convincing anyone to play these games.

[elmuerte]

I didn't like Beyond Good & Evil as much as Anachronox. I find those two very similar in many ways.

Maybe, but not a lot game-wise.

I don't like the "why <game> failed". It makes you wonder, what was the game suposed to do? What did it fail to accomplish. Most articles like this should be "Why <game> didn't sell well". The only thing I think where BG&E was the last part, it fealt rushed to and end. Maybe because the action became way more dense.

[andreadst]

IMHO, BG&E isn't the masterpiece everyone says it is. At least gameplay-wise. I think the game mechanics here are way too simplistic and don't really feel cohesive with a script that has so much potenital and the well designed game world. The great production values really helped the overall result but at it's core, it's a game that doesn't manage to be as compelling (speaking about gameplay again) as, let's say, zelda and lacks any kind of substantial innovation and distinguishing features that makes a game worth remembering in time.

I enjoyed my time with the game, I played it through the end, but I don't have any fond memories of it. And that's what tells me if a game is just *good*, or if it's some kind of masterpiece.

And then of course, there's that thing about the female journalist with a pig uncle...let's see how anyone could manage to have some successfull marketing on that:shifty:

[elmuerte]

And then of course, there's that thing about the female journalist with a pig uncle...let's see how anyone could manage to have some successfull marketing on that:shifty:

Ok.. then about about:

* an italian plumber saving a princess

* an orange blob absorbing stuff

* some weird little guy with a sticky ball

* some space marine surrounded by complete darkness

* ...

you can dumb everything down to something that doesn't sound interesting

[Wrestlevania]

There is a market for more complex games--it's just a matter of finding your crowd and getting them interested.

That's where I was coming from with my "platform exclusive" argument.

I still think there's merit in the idea that perhaps BG&E was spread too thinly - across much too diverse an audience - to really find its intended niche. I honestly believe that intelligently targeting a specific platform, that supports and accentuates your game's key features, helps greatly in this respect. Irrespective of the game's subject matter, etc.

I would imagine a fair number of people simply didn't wish to put that much effort into understanding a game like BG&E, because it presents concepts and ideas quite different from what's already out there. Which inherently makes it a difficult game to pigeon-hole, too.

[SpiderMonkey]

That's where I was coming from with my "platform exclusive" argument.

Perhaps it's an oversimplification, but I always got the impression that a lot of people bought a Gamecube simply to play Nintendo's first-party titles, and that a large part of the reason it "failed" overall was because those games outshone anything else, and caused third-party games to be ignored. Wouldn't BG&E have just wilted in the radiance of Zelda/whatever?

[Wrestlevania]

Perhaps it's an oversimplification, but I always got the impression that a lot of people bought a Gamecube simply to play Nintendo's first-party titles, and that a large part of the reason it "failed" overall was because those games outshone anything else, and caused third-party games to be ignored. Wouldn't BG&E have just wilted in the radiance of Zelda/whatever?

That's not how I understand the derailment of the GameCube at all. It was a lack of interest in - and therefore support of - third party developers by Nintendo themselves that choked the supply of games. Nintendo effectively condemned the system with their suffocating rules on standards, quality control and themes--actively shunning adult themes (until near the end of the console's artificially shortened lifespan) when the mainstream was getting ever-more hooked on guns and virtual car jacking.

Rightly, Nintendo got a good kick in the teeth for this. Hence they've (sensibly) extended the olive branch to anyone who even so much as looks at a Wii dev kit. And the difference that has already made is obvious; one of the single most talked-about next generation titles is a Wii exclusive--namely Red Steel.

But this is getting way off track.

[andreadst]

Ok.. then about about:

* an italian plumber saving a princess

* an orange blob absorbing stuff

* some weird little guy with a sticky ball

* some space marine surrounded by complete darkness

* ...

you can dumb everything down to something that doesn't sound interesting

ok, you win:blink:

but I think the BG&E pitch is worse (mostly because of the pig uncle)...

last three exemples you named could be fun and...yup....[spaghettimode] plumber saving princess is lame, but he's italian like me, so it's cool:hah: [/spaghettimode]

anyway, if I remember right, when BG&E got released I didn't find many really good reviews. mostly good reviews but not those *wow* articles that could have meant something...I think that's especially important for new IPs...even if I can think of many exemples that can prove me wrong (like Ico: *wow reviews*, terrible sales).

That's not how I understand the derailment of the GameCube at all. It was a lack of interest in - and therefore support of - third party developers by Nintendo themselves that choked the supply of games. Nintendo effectively condemned the system with their suffocating rules on standards, quality control and themes--actively shunning adult themes (until near the end of the console's artificially shortened lifespan) when the mainstream was getting ever-more hooked on guns and virtual car jacking.

so sad but so true

[SpiderMonkey]

(mostly because of the pig uncle)...

I'm gonna raise my hand at this point ... There have been numerous occasions where I've been in Game weighing up whether today will be the day that I hand over my crisp ten pound note to play this "I should play this someday" game. And that pig on the back of the box has played a serious, genuine role in making me put the box back on the shelf. Every time. I find him/it incredibly disturbing.

[andreadst]

I'm gonna raise my hand at this point ... There have been numerous occasions where I've been in Game weighing up whether today will be the day that I hand over my crisp ten pound note to play this "I should play this someday" game. And that pig on the back of the box has played a serious, genuine role in making me put the box back on the shelf. Every time. I find him/it incredibly disturbing.

indeed! even in-game he's the only thing that seems out of place to me...maybe it was some crazy attempt to reverse the stereotypical father figure being cool etc ... and it was so in contrast with Jade being a pretty bunch of polys

btw, I didn't have to pay for the game, it came free with a french game mag, "joystick", a couple of months ago...maybe you can find some nice offer like that in your country. despite the pig uncle, it's definitely worth playing:tup:

[jp-30]

I hope the game picks up a little late steam through Gametap or something like that.

Funny. This image used on a recent Gamasutra Telltale Games/GameTap joint interview (re: Sam & Max).

I bought the game about a year ago due to all the positive spin here at Thumbs. I've played a little way into it (I killed the big flying centipede thing with the cute decoy antenna) but I really struggle with it due to the lack of y-axis invert on the mouse. It's totally unnatural to me to control a FPS where mouse 'up' is look up.

The ridiculous thing is that there is mouse invert, but it also inverts the x-axis. And the camera mode can be controlled correctly with just a y-axis reverse.

There's no patch, though some guy wrote a 3rd party mouse invertor script that is supposed to work, but didn't seem to make any difference to me.

I guess I should just try and map it to my PC gamepad, but I actually prefer mouse & keyboard for FPS style games.

[Oath]

I dunno, I think I mean a different kind of "complex". I can pitch most strategy games, most RPGs and Eve Online in one sentence. I can't pitch Psychonauts in one sentence. At least not in a way that really gets to the heart of the game. Same goes for BG&E, this guy seems to be saying (haven't played the game yet, please don't ban me. )

I wouldn't consider Psychonauts as an especially complex game. The mechanics behind it are standard platforming stuff, but yeah, I can't really find a good one-liner for it either. About Eve-Online: one aspect to notice here is that they have people paying every month for a game that is exceedingly hard to get in to and has some pretty intricate gameplay systems. Most people who try it never make it past the tutorial - or so it seems.

The thing with both you and me having trouble with finding a tagline for Psychonauts, for example, is that we're not in marketing. We also already have a great fondness for the game (you better have!) which makes us want to bring all the positive aspects to light at once. I'm sure you could work out a nice sales-pitch with enough time and will to only show a few things about the game that might make most people interested, perhaps even hiding some unique aspects that don't have much positive impact on sales.

Of course there are still problems; I've seen a lot of people complain that they didn't want to play Psychonauts because they didn't think the main character was cool enough. The same people probably had trouble with Jade being the star of BG&E and a big pig getting that much screen time.

[steak-flavored gum]

how's this: "you play a psychic-in-training who enters the minds of insane persons and fixes their problems"

[Marek]

The consensus amongst industry folks (at least ones that I talk with) is that "innovative" is fine but "weird" is bad. It's too easy for people to say "uhh this is weird" and not bother. The way to get away with things is to hide cool shit in a seemingly conventional game.

I hear what the guy is saying in that article but I'm still going to blame this on PR (and the timing of the release). I know that UbiSoft really made an effort in advertising BG&E, but I think the industry in general is really bad at marketing this type of game (in which the world and the characters and the overall concept are the hooks, not what other games it's comparable to, or that it's "for fans of X", or that it has some unique gameplay features).

I've looked at marketing documents for a few games and most of them show pie charts of how many "fans of [sport X] [movie Y] [theme Z]" they think exist in each territory and how much percent of that audience they think they can capture. Games like BG&E work a bit differently. They can't piggyback on a known existing audience.

Same with Katamari Damacy. It didn't get any proper marketing either but it got lucky. Some people ran with it and unknowingly gave birth to a small internet meme. Katamari is in some ways the Snakes on a Plane of gaming. EVERYONE knows about Katamari... they usually don't know the name but they know about "that crazy game with the sticky ball I heard about from a friend who read about it on a blog".

The videos of Rayman and the rabbids doing random things are a step in the right direction. It's selling the characters and the world, not the game or its mechanics. Everyone knows about this weird game and knows that it has funny rabbits in it. There's a build-up of buzz and if Ubisoft plays its cards right this game is going to be a big success, and it will be only partly because it's a Rayman sequel.

Or, you can take a page from the Ron Gilbert book, and use your first game as an elaborate advertisement for the sequels. He talked about BG&E in that interview on Thumb and said that what UbiSoft should have done was hit people with BG&E2 and 3. They'd likely be a big success because of the BG&E fanbase that now exists. He said the first Freddy Fish game sold badly but as they created more of them and the character became more recognized the series started selling shitloads.

By the way, the oneliner for BG&E is "an action/adventure in which you uncover an alien conspiracy".

[polytope]

I don't know if there's a spoiler tag, or how to use it, so my apologies. Don't read on

I thought Jade was a good character, for the most part. I liked her interactions with Porco Rosso. The rest of the characters were shallow (the good/evil/good guard) or forgettable (I've forgotten if there are any other characters). I also had a big problem with the end plot, especially the Jade plot twist.

With a name like "Beyond Good and Evil", you'd think that some moral uncertainty would be eventually injected into what appear to be the bad guys. During the game there are certainly hints that there might be. Not at all. At most, we get a little bit of cutscene that threatens to turn Jade into a bad guy but it's obvious that this is just a hollow threat.

In the end, the game turned into "Just Good and Evil". Sigh. Nicely polished gameplay, though.