Jake Posted June 5, 2004 Yeah. If for you it's somehow really an issue of "the publisher has made the game unplayable, only the pirated versions work" you should still be buying the real thing and then obtaining whatever it takes to make it work, be it a patch, crack, or the full-on bootleg you would have got in the first place before turning over this new leaf. Otherwise you're just completelely rationalizing and lying to yourself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris Posted June 5, 2004 Right. Not to mention, you're cheating the developer, who is almost never responsible for stupid copy protection flaws. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toblix Posted June 5, 2004 Whoa, Nelly! I was just thinking out loud. Of course there's a big difference between downloading a game and cracking a legally purchased one, I'm just saying that maybe, in the eyes of the law, it wouldn't matter. I'm no lawyer, but maybe one of the people here who are (I estimate approx. 15-20% are) could tell me. Is there a legal difference between downloading a cracked game or buying it and then cracking it? I mean, aren't you just buying a license to play the game or something anyways? Wouldn't you just be breaking the EULA or whatever it's called either way? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tabacco Posted June 5, 2004 Well, according ot the DMCA it's illegal to circumvent any copy protection mechanism for any reason, so yes, cracking a game you actually own is still illegal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris Posted June 5, 2004 Whoa, Nelly! I was just thinking out loud. Of course there's a big difference between downloading a game and cracking a legally purchased one, I'm just saying that maybe, in the eyes of the law, it wouldn't matter. I'm no lawyer, but maybe one of the people here who are (I estimate approx. 15-20% are) could tell me. Is there a legal difference between downloading a cracked game or buying it and then cracking it? I mean, aren't you just buying a license to play the game or something anyways? Wouldn't you just be breaking the EULA or whatever it's called either way? They are both illegal, but doing one is worse than doing the other. I highly doubt that if publishers were going to start prosecuting pirates individually (which doesn't seem likely at least right now) they wouldn't worry as much about people who cracked versions they actually paid for. It just seems unlikely they'd worry about that as much. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toblix Posted June 5, 2004 They are both illegal, but doing one is worse than doing the other. I highly doubt that if publishers were going to start prosecuting pirates individually (which doesn't seem likely at least right now) they wouldn't worry as much about people who cracked versions they actually paid for. It just seems unlikely they'd worry about that as much. Oh, I agree, but just for the argument's sake: does downloading a game constitute a more serious crime? To paraphrase: is downloading a game more illegal? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RLacey Posted June 5, 2004 Oh, I agree, but just for the argument's sake: does downloading a game constitute a more serious crime? To paraphrase: is downloading a game more illegal? If we're looking at this in strictly legal terms, then it probably isn't. But, and this is a BIG but, it is morally far worse, and is far harder to justify. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manny_c44 Posted June 5, 2004 I actually feel good if I'm stealing from Microsoft or EA (aka the scourge of the earth which has devoured creativity). But when it comes to games that are more niche, e.g. the upcoming psychonauts, you have to support the developer because we need fresh ideas. Besides, if I really like what I've stolen I always get atleast a used copy of the game or CD. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salka Posted June 5, 2004 How has Microsoft and EA devoured creativity? Hm? If I decide tomorrow that Double Fine have devoured creativity, does that mean I can download Psychonauts when it comes out? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThunderPeel2001 Posted June 5, 2004 If I decide tomorrow that Double Fine have devoured creativity, does that mean I can download Psychonauts when it comes out? Lol! Way to twist what he said completely out of context! Not to mention the ignorance of not knowing how MS and EA operate. They're are huge conglomerates whose only concern is the bottom line: Money! They're both the largest companies in their field -- other, more ethical, companies have to work around them. Did you know that EA had a special agreement with Sony so they could push their PlayStation games through Sony's testing even if Sony found problems with them? The money (meeting the advertised release dates) was more important than fixing problems with the game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erwin_Br Posted June 5, 2004 I can't stand people bitching and moaning about big companies like Microsoft. Man, I wish *I* created such a profitable enterprise. Since when is it wrong to make truckloads of money? If the product is crap and people still buy it, you should blame the people for buying it, not the developer. Don't like Microsoft? Don't buy Windows!!! Can't work with another OS because it's more difficult? Don't complain! --Erwin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salka Posted June 5, 2004 Doesn't make a difference. He's still choosing to download that software because he doesn't like the company. Microsoft provide good products and I'm sure, at some stage, EA will provide a good game... and people have to work on those products. I don't care that he downloads Microsoft or EA software. It doesn't bother me because I have no particular attachment to the companies. But it is kinda a bad excuse to justify downloading software because you don't like the company. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erwin_Br Posted June 5, 2004 Microsoft provide good products and I'm sure, at some stage, EA will provide a good game... and people have to work on those products. Amen, sister! --Erwin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salka Posted June 5, 2004 Also, to what Erwin just before; I agree. I hear so many people bitching about Microsoft because of security flaws in their software. Well, if somebody breaks through the windows of your house, and steals your TV, do you blame the builder? I think you would blame the person that broke your goddamn windows and stole your TV. Windows?!??? GET IT!????? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erwin_Br Posted June 5, 2004 I think you would blame the person that broke your goddamn windows and stole your TV. Speaking of which, I got an email from you the other day. I think it's not really you, though, but your email address got hoaxed or whatever the term is. Subject: Re: Does it? Message: your attachment? verify it. Of course my virus scanner already deleted the malicious attachment. I'm wondering if you ever got stuff like that from my address? Might be a virus or something. Or just coincidence. --Erwin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salka Posted June 5, 2004 Goddamn shabby Microsoft products!!! No, I got an e-mail from a couple people like that. It's not me. I think I got one from myself like that as well. Bleh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThunderPeel2001 Posted June 5, 2004 I don't hate Microsoft, I never said I did. Nor do I hate EA. I think you too need to sit down and take a deep breath... being so "anti" or so "pro" is just as bad in my opinion. Both companies have good and bad points, I was merely trying to explain what manny meant. Both companies have repeatedly shown that they value money over customer satisfaction... but they eventually seem to come up with the goods! Plus it's hard for a company not to do that with shareholders etc, so I see both sides. But it doesn't mean that they're super-duper brilliant companies! Anyways, you're right (Yufster). Hating the company doesn't really justify breaking the law and stealing from it, but Manny never really said it did. He just said it made him feel good (which is a little peverse, I know ). There isn't really any justification for stealing software, you're quite right (IMHO). As for the "builder" analogy, well, I'm sorry but... (grimaces)... that's just the dumbest thing I've ever heard! Try cars and see what you come up with. Try a TV that repeatedly stops showing TV (you know, it's actual *function*!) -- and there's no other "real" alternative -- 99% of DVD and video players are designed to work only with this 1 TV. Why? Because the company has made sure (quite cleverly, and with great business acumen) that every house you buy comes with this particular brand of TV already installed. Anyway, I digress. I think Windows XP is rather cool and I never have any problems with it and yes, I BOUGHT it! (In best Twilight Zone voice... "Did you?" ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salka Posted June 6, 2004 I'm not 'so anti or pro' anything. I just think it's a bad excuse to justify downloading products from a company because you don't like it, and not doing it to other companies because you DO like them. I don't know whether you ever thought of this, but Microsoft employs people, and their jobs depend on the sale of those products. I'm not saying I hate the guy or anything. I'm just saying his excuse sucks. At least he can admit he is stealing the software. My best friend worked at Gamestop until about yesterday, when she was laid off because there isn't enough business. It's the main Game Outlet in Waterford. Jesus Christ, I went into a Gamestop in Dublin and asked if I could order in Grim Fandango, and the guy said he could give me a copy of it. Wtf?! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThunderPeel2001 Posted June 6, 2004 Sorry. I was editing my message as you were writing your reply. I agree, there's no excuse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salka Posted June 6, 2004 Why? Because the company has made sure (quite cleverly, and with great business acumen) that every house you buy comes with this particular brand of TV already installed. Is the TV particularly enticing to burglars? Also; Windows XP came bundled with my PC. Woohoo! Also also; don't ever use the word 'acumen' again, sam! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RLacey Posted June 6, 2004 I think Microsoft and EA have done a lot of good things over the years, but I'm disappointed with the way in which EA operates nowadays - especially its habit of buying out successful developers, forcing them to work on sequels and then promptly closing them... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
schepton Posted June 6, 2004 Simple argument i give to all people who download games... Do you like games? - Yes Well if everyone were like you and downloaded them for free then there would be no games at all ARE YOU HAPPY!!!!! - No... My best friend used to download everything and anything until he got a job, now he buys all his stuff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ginger Posted June 6, 2004 ok I'm in a bad mood because I've done over a hundred hours of exams and revision this week. Games are too expensive, by the mass public shelling out £40 for an inferior game we merely perpetuate developers and publishers making crappy games that do not sell and need to be subsidised by making the price of all games high. Games aren't something we need so in theory the consumer should have utilmate power over the industry, but for some reason we accept the unreasonable prices and buy many of the shit games. 10 years ago it may have been fair to sell a game for £40 because the industry was small then, but now a good game will sell hundreds of thousands plus of units world wide, but i have to pay more for that game to subsidise the poor games. if the hundreds of games with little worth were not made we could buy our great games at a fraction of the price. However the industry doesn't care because so many people(including myself) will go out and pay £40 for an ok game. Warzing is a method for those who love games but refuse to pay so much for them to get their voice back (prehaps they may not be doing this conciously but they are making a point) The publishers fuck us (look at the price discrimintation that goes on i nearly have to pay the same number of pounds for a game as a american has to pay dollars, so fuck them i owe the publishers nothing, i owe the developers something which is way I buy most of my games) If we just lie back and keep on taking it up the ass from the publishers nothing will ever change, if we want to make the industry better we have to dictate things with our money. Ok what u guys are doing (buying only good games) is a good way to go but still doesn't help with the unreasonable prices, so u've got to look at the warzers as doing some good. As for the arguement a game not worth playing for isn't worth playing is bullshit (btw i buy most my software and pump thousands [well maybe about £1000] of pounds into the industry each year.) I'm not paying £40 for a game that i can complete in four hours and never play again, but it was worth playing for 4 hours, hell i would hire it out if i was able to but due to fear of piracy I can’t, so I’m forced to download it. Can i also ask all the moral people out there who never warze if they have ever pirated music or films (as from a moral point of view there is no fucking differnece, hell even taping tv and fast frowarding through the adverts is morally the same thing) or are all those who are wanting to go into the industry (which is much more shit than u imagine it) merely making sure that once there they can make money out of creating their art. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salka Posted June 6, 2004 Out of interest, what do you think are the expenses involved in the creation of a video game such as, say... Halo? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ginger Posted June 6, 2004 I'm well aware of the expense, but £40 X 100,000 is 4 million and I imagine it was not that much and halo sold a lot more copies than that, the reason the price of games is so high is because something like 90% of all games don't make their money back (that figure is slightly old) and the main reason they don't make their money back is they are shit, ok sometimes it’s he public being gay or the publisher not recognising what they've got. If that 90% were cut to say about 30% (which I think is more reasonable) the price of games could roughly halved. This would increase the size of the market as your non-gamer consumer would also be more confident buying games as the likelihood of coming home with a pile of shit would be less. Hopefully XNA should be able further reduce the cost of games and spark much creativity, all credit to Microsoft with that idea. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
