Jake

Idle Weekend November 20, 2016: Electing Better

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2 hours ago, Athis said:

 

Yes, the tone and content of the replies sends a very clear message that my perspective is unwelcome in this forum

and I dont want to argue about it

 

 

It is not your perspective that is unwelcome.

 

1 hour ago, Athis said:

Well I am not pitching in to defend Trump; but he is clearly not a failure by any rational or objective measure

 

It is your tone.

 

You implicitly* accuse people here of being irrational for identifying Trump as a failure for already doing things that are, in fact, objectively bad.

 

You make some salient points that many here would agree with. Here's a good example: "The US political system has been entirely usurped by capital." Yes, absolutely! It's a huge problem! One many progressives (the same group you mistakenly derided in your initial post) are constantly fighting to solve, in more ways than one.

 

But you can't then ignore when people point out that Trump is very much a part of that problem. Indeed, he has benefited from it in a way that very few have, and abused the systems put in place by the politicians you seem to hate to take advantage of the very same group of people who he's fooled into believing he's going to make things betterTrump ain't our savior. He's a bad businessman who continues to appear successful at the expense of the everyman.

 

*To be honest, I read this as an explicit accusation, but I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you don't mean to call everyone here who thinks Trump a failure "irrational". But accusations of irrationality are a very common avenue of attack from those on "the right" who believe emotions have poisoned the rhetoric of "the left". So, maybe choose your words more carefully if that is not your intent.

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As an European and as someone with family in Poland, the idea that Trump will be better for us is just laughable. Anything that lets the Russian kleptocracy spread its claws westwards is just awful. Not to mention the abominable cryptofascist movements they're funding on my home turf. And the crypto doesn't really even need to be there anymore.

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4 hours ago, Athis said:

My main concern during this recent US election cycle was world peace. From her rhetoric and track record Hillary seemed the greater threat in that respect to me.

 

I honestly do not understand this point of view. Could you please refer me to something that supports this? It is such a common point people bring up that I would like to know what they find more belligerent than what Trump has said.

 

5 hours ago, Athis said:

Under Hillary there would be a real threat of war with Russia - in Europe. We Europeans have been down that road several times in recent history and it has not worked out well for anyone.

 

So you're saying Hillary would create a war with Russia in Europe? That doesn't make any sense. The path to war with Russia in Europe that I see is Russia trying to either directly annex lands or in other ways violating the sovereignty of other nations. As they've already done. I could see the situation devolving to an ultimatum, with the options being either caving in to Russia's demands or escalation to armed conflict. The threat of war would be due to Russia's ambitions, not due to us having an ally in US. 

 

I can understand Russia wanting hegemony over Eastern Europe. It is hard to say what exact shape that would take, and what consequences that would have. I certainly would not welcome that. In all honesty, I'm short-sighted enough to not see benefits there. Besides those of specific interest groups. Not that the cultural and economical dominance of the US has been strictly a good thing for Europe, but it certainly hasn't been a bad thing as a whole.

 

EU currently has a rather precarious position, what with Brexit creating a lot of uncertainty over the shape of EU in the future. If EU shrinks or dilutes, it seems likely Russia will try to take advantage. For EU, not having US as an ally in this scenario would be pretty terrible.

 

4 hours ago, Athis said:

But to your specific question about Trump - I see an extraordinary individual who has created enormous personal success in his life thus far

 

Thanks for this point. Wealth is a clear metric, and there's utility in it. Some people probably directly value this. I've kind of glossed it over, as I mostly view his financial success as evidence of his willingness to screw the other guy over, his basic lack of empathy.

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17 hours ago, osmosisch said:

I'm aware of one real media cartel, ie. Murdoch's and that's not exactly liberal.

 

Yes in my perspective the corporate media cartel has two principal wings - the right and the centre liberal

Each presents a different perspective of reality to their audiences

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I feel like this is where the burden of proof falls on you to demonstrate the 'cartel' accusation; furthermore you've shifted your goalposts from progressive to centre liberal which are pretty different beasts.

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16 hours ago, Athis said:

 

Only time will tell what the real outcomes will be and whether Trump will be the monster many of you expect him to be

 

 

Other people have said the same thing, but the appointments he's making and / or is rumoured to be making is not helping people believe he isn't a monster. Or rather, complicit in a party of monsters that he's entirely too happy to go along with policy on.

 

He's already committed - personally - to repealing Obama's protections of transgender people. This is not a good thing.

 

15 hours ago, Athis said:

Well I am not pitching in to defend Trump; but he is clearly not a failure by any rational or objective measure

He is only a failure in the minds of people who see him in exclusively negative terms

The estimate figure of his wealth I gave is from Forbes this Sept; but really no one knows exactly what he is worth; perhaps not even Trump himself

and since his wealth is so invested in real estate and in multiple countries it's value is constantly changing according to markets

But any way to look at it he has taken a very good start in life and expanded it exponentially

 

You have literally done nothing but defend Trump; you're doing it again by implying (well, stating) that his failures are made-up by the people who want him to fail. His failures and misdemeanours are pretty well-documented.

 

If you don't know how much Trump is worth, then don't give statements about his financial worth, because you used it as a defense against him being a professional failure. You can't now take that back just because the figure was disproven. This is you, defending him.

 

I wish I'd had the start in life he had. Many people do, I'd imagine. It's pretty hard to fail in life when you're given so many safety nets and a startup fund of a million dollars. I can only hope you don't rate people purely based on their ability to turn a lot of money into a lot more money, because that has bad connotations for what you think of people that need state support to survive.

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To my perspective centre liberal encompasses most liberal progressives in the US usually democrats

Of course all of these terms mean different things in different places and minds

and one could argue about the spectrum of views and the validity of right/left designations etc

I use the terms loosely to describe the right and the left wings of the corporate media cartel

In my opinion the real left wing lies outside the mainstream media spectrum in the US

 

 

 

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The figure I gave of Trump's wealth is from Forbes - it is only an estimate

I am not a supporter of Trump

I hope he will not do as much damage as many fear at the moment

The recent US elections was an awful spectacle with no right choice

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10 minutes ago, Athis said:

To my perspective centre liberal encompasses most liberal progressives in the US usually democrats

Of course all of these terms mean different things in different places and minds

and one could argue about the spectrum of views and the validity of right/left designations etc

I use the terms loosely to describe the right and the left wings of the corporate media cartel

In my opinion the real left wing lies outside the mainstream media spectrum in the US

So you use a lot of labels interchangeably as regards the left wing of US politics. I don't think that makes discussion any easier, but whatever.

 

You have yet to show proof of the existence of a cartel of either liberal or progressive or whatever you want to call it media. 

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6 minutes ago, SuperBiasedMan said:

Out of curiosity Athis, what do you identify as politically?

 

I would be somewhere on the left

My preferred option would have been Sanders

I think he would have defeated Trump

But that is moot

The democratic party has lost its way

I hope its severe defeat in this election cycle will prompt some serious reviewing of direction and policy

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16 minutes ago, Athis said:

I would be somewhere on the left

+

38 minutes ago, Athis said:

In my opinion the real left wing lies outside the mainstream media spectrum in the US

=

 

???

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If you're left-wing, then you have absolutely nothing to gain by playing down concerns of Trump. I can understand the criticism of the Democratic party completely, but you can oppose Trump and oppose the current tactics of how the Democrats engage with issues.

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13 minutes ago, Gorbles said:

If you're left-wing, then you have absolutely nothing to gain by playing down concerns of Trump. I can understand the criticism of the Democratic party completely, but you can oppose Trump and oppose the current tactics of how the Democrats engage with issues.

 

I understand concerns about Trump

I share them

I was more concerned about Clinton

But I am not cheering because she lost

I am not sure whether the worst was averted

or if the worst still lies ahead

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2 hours ago, Athis said:

To my perspective centre liberal encompasses most liberal progressives in the US usually democrats

 

...what

 

I'm repeating myself again, but you keep ignoring this, so I guess it's important: liberals and progressives are not the same thing. If you're going to throw around labels, you have to understand what they mean, and be consistent in how you use them. You've demonstrated both a lack of understanding and consistency.

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oh by the way let's pretend trump has done literally nothing else to make people upset up to this point

 

p06GLuO.jpg

 

Denying citizens freedom of speech! Off to a good start. Wonder what's next? Internment camps for Muslims sounds like a good idea!

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1 hour ago, Athis said:

 

I understand concerns about Trump

I share them

I was more concerned about Clinton

But I am not cheering because she lost

I am not sure whether the worst was averted

or if the worst still lies ahead

 

Why would you be more concerned about Clinton than Trump?

 

If your concern is that she has lied to the people, so has Trump. If your concern is foreign policy, Trump has just as many warning bells (that I think Gormongous kindly explained). If your concern is exploitation and a lack of protection for impoverished classes, Trump isn't going to help there either (case in point: he's committed to repealing transgender rights passed by Obama's administration).

 

For every bad aspect I can think of around Clinton, Trump is just as bad if not worse. This doesn't absolve Clinton at all, but I struggle to understand how you were more concerned should Clinton have won the electoral vote.

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20 hours ago, Gorbles said:

 

Why would you be more concerned about Clinton than Trump?

 

If your concern is that she has lied to the people, so has Trump. If your concern is foreign policy, Trump has just as many warning bells (that I think Gormongous kindly explained). If your concern is exploitation and a lack of protection for impoverished classes, Trump isn't going to help there either (case in point: he's committed to repealing transgender rights passed by Obama's administration).

 

For every bad aspect I can think of around Clinton, Trump is just as bad if not worse. This doesn't absolve Clinton at all, but I struggle to understand how you were more concerned should Clinton have won the electoral vote.

 

For the reasons I wrote above

Her belligerent foreign policy record and rhetoric

Clinton is a Wall Street democrat. At heart she is a neocon with a faux progressive sugar coating

The Clintons were responsible for some of the most regressive and destructive legislation in recent decades

NAFTA

The prison industrial complex

The repeal of Glass–Steagall and unleashing the scourge of derivatives which precipitated the financial crisis of 2007/8

Gutting welfare

The destruction of Libya

The Clintons and their foundation are under multiple possibly criminal investigations at the moment - pay-to-play; the emails etc

it goes on and on

 

My primary concern is the safety of the world at this crucial time of rising geopolitical tensions

Trump will be a cooler head in my estimation

Trump is not a neocon; he is a tough deal maker by nature; which is exactly what the world needs; deals not wars

 

That does not mean I will like or approve of everything he does...

But in times like these we must put aside quibbles about political  correctness and his crude and crushing victories over his adversaries to win the White House

 

I predict that Trump will be the most competent and effective US head of state in decades

 

 

 

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Trump is a product of wall street. He has more reason to protect it than anyone else.

 

I'm not sure I agree with your tactic of ignoring anything bad anyone says about Trump and focusing on only shit-talking Clinton. Makes you seem... disengenuous.

 

PS, once again, Clinton is not a progressive, nor does she pretend to be.

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2 hours ago, Athis said:

 

For the reasons I wrote above

Her belligerent foreign policy record and rhetoric

Clinton is a Wall Street democrat. At heart she is a neocon with a faux progressive sugar coating

The Clintons were responsible for some of the most regressive and destructive legislation in recent decades

NAFTA

The prison industrial complex

The repeal of Glass–Steagall and unleashing the scourge of derivatives which precipitated the financial crisis of 2007/8

Gutting welfare

The destruction of Libya

The Clintons and their foundation are under multiple possibly criminal investigations at the moment - pay-to-play; the emails etc [1]

it goes on and on

 

My primary concern is the safety of the world at this crucial time of rising geopolitical tensions

Trump will be a cooler head in my estimation

Trump is not a neocon; he is a tough deal maker by nature; which is exactly what the world needs; deals not wars

 

That does not mean I will like or approve of everything he does...

But in times like these we must put aside quibbles about political  correctness and his crude and crushing victories over his adversaries to win the White House [2]

 

I predict that Trump will be the most competent and effective US head of state in decades [3]

 

[1] I thought I explained that Trump has a similar number of issues under his belt, including the revealing of confidential information and more definitive legal proceedings like rape cases? Plural?

 

[2] You said you were a left-leaning person, this should be a useful link on the origins of having an opinion for you: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/30/political-correctness-how-the-right-invented-phantom-enemy-donald-trump

 

[3] Again, statements like this are why people believe you are "defending" Trump, despite your claims to the contrary.

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Thanks you for replies guys

I just present my perceptions and opinions

 

At the moment people are so shocked by the election, and their perceptions are so completely distorted by the intense media propaganda that accompanied it

that almost no one is capable of making a clear rational estimation of Trump.

(I include myself in that)

 

Most of the outpourings in media reports and opinion pieces and the population are expressions of a sort of mass hysteria

It seems to me to be a mirror image of the mass hysteria in the media and the population that accompanied Obama's election eight years ago

Obama turned out not to be the agent of the hope & change he promised to be

I dont think Trump will turn out to be the monster many seem to think he is

But I may be mistaken; only time will tell

 

Meanwhile I dont believe the hysteria and fear mongering in the media

I will wait and watch and see what he will actually do

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On 11/23/2016 at 0:20 PM, Twig said:

All right, I'll bite.


How do you justify voting for a man who willingly embraces racists to win an election, and then claims ignorance post-election? How do you justify voting for a man whole openly talks about requiring Muslims to register with the government? How do you justify voting for a man who brags about holding the power to nuke people and wants to continue torturing people?

 

And that's not to mention the many other issues with Trump, most of which are rooted in what osmo's post is about. How can anyone trust a man whose words and claims literally change on a day to day basis, to whatever suits him best? The man is a pathological liar! But because Hillary is the establishment, I guess she's more evil than a man who embraces the alt-right movement? I honestly can't even begin to empathize with this, as much as I personally dislike Hillary (and, in fact, "the establishment").

 

I'm fully aware that not everyone who voted for Trump hates Muslims (or any other group), but every single one is complicit to this behavior and this attitude. It's unavoidable. You can't vote for a hateful platform and claim innocence.

 

So, yeah, why would you do something like this?

 

Sorry, I just can't agree with this. By this logic everyone who votes for anyone would be complicit in all of the candidates past behaviors. Hillary's done tons of gross stuff. Are you complicit in all of that because you voted for her? You said yourself you dislike Hillary, I'm curious if you turned out to vote for her or stayed home like so many others.

 

I think this type of attitude toward people of differing opinions is why they election turned out the way it did. I don't support everything Trump said, not by a long shot, and I don't think he even supports all of it. I'm going to address some of this more in follow up replies which I will be getting to ASAP. In my reply to you I mostly wanted to comment on the failed tactic of Hillary's campaign to choose to attack the Trump voter, which I think you echoed here. If you broadly put massive amounts of people into a "basket of deplorables" or say they're complicit in a bunch of gross stuff they don't agree with or feel complicit in, they're just going to tune you out. I could go on about what I think Trump's tactics were, why I'm OK with some of them, and why they were successful if you want to continue the conversation.

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On 11/23/2016 at 4:07 PM, unimural said:

 

I have a few questions, and I'll probably have some follow-ups if you're still interested. And thank you for offering your point of view, whether you answer or not.

 

  • What were your main reasons for voting Trump?
  • What are your thoughts and feelings with regards to Trump's campaign rhetoric?
  • Which of his campaign promises do you think are the most important ones?
  • Do you expect Trump to follow through on his campaign promises? By the follow through I mean a reasonable attempt at getting the thing done.

If you don't want to answer publicly, I'm happy with a PM as well. I am simply curious to hear your view.

 

I'm going to keep with your bullet format! I want to give a bit of my background too as it might make the context of my replies even weirded! I'm in the metro Atlanta area in a county that wen't blue for the first time, and many friends and co-workers would openly tell me they couldn't believe anyone would vote for Trump and that they were openly voting for Hillary with varying degrees of support ranging from enthusiastic to lukewarm or minimal. I was raised in a Republican household but in my formative years became much more libertarian and socially liberal while remaining pretty fiscally conservative. After 2012 I completely left the Republican party as I felt the party no longer represented me and career politicians on all sides were ruining the country. I was supportive of some of the primary candidates, and completely unsupportive of others this cycle, and was pretty turned off by the long primary campaign.

  • What were your main reasons for voting Trump?
    • Because he's not a career politician (and I would argue not really even a Republican)
    • Because I think he'll be better on economic issues affecting me, my friends and family, and you!
    • Because I think he truly thinks America is the greatest country on Earth and wants it to succeed again where it's been stagnant for many years
  • What are your thoughts and feelings with regards to Trump's campaign rhetoric?
    • I thought it was largely a tool used to great effect as proven by the outcome. I don't think he actually holds many of the positions he claimed to, which is fine by me as I don't hold them either. In many ways I think quiet Trump supporters like myself - in a way it's like a silent understanding between him and the voter where you realize he's making a ludicrous claim just to have the left get outraged and distracted, and in the end he ends up softening the position considerably. In the previous post I replied to there were lots of questions about Trumps comments with regards to Muslims and how we could be OK with someone threatening to create a Muslim registry. The answer is I'm not OK with that, but I also don't think there's any way that happens. If you want to continue on with this conversation, PM me.
  • Which of his campaign promises do you think are the most important ones?
    • Economic issues
    • Doing something about undocumented immigration (but not necessarily the Great Wall of America(tm))
    • Combatting the spread of ISIS and radical ideas to Western society
  • Do you expect Trump to follow through on his campaign promises? By the follow through I mean a reasonable attempt at getting the thing done.
    • I'm not sure, as I have never really considered this something we can reasonably expect - I'm pretty used to feeling screwed over by politicians. Is this a thing for the left, and if not, why? Obama had a ton of unfulfilled promises. Do you feel the last 8 years have been successful, and did you see Hillary as four more years, the natural selection, or a way to make right on things Obama left undone?

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Thanks for your answers xchen, I have a follow up question about your response regarding Trump's rhetoric. In particular, how he talks about minorities.

 

You're not concerned because you don't think he believes it, but do you feel like it does any damage? Such as emboldening people who believe it's true or undermining the position of these minority groups in American society?

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