Rob Zacny Posted October 29, 2015 Three Moves Ahead 328: King of Dragon Pass It's another Classic Game Analysis as Bruce, special guest Jon Shafer, and Troy "But Being One With the Cows IS My Religion" Goodfellow talk about the venerable King of Dragon Pass. This essential entry in the strategy/roleplaying/management/cow trading sim genre has inspired and delighted gamers since the 90's. The game is now available on modern platforms with updated content, so what better time to go back and discuss the finer points of negotiating with duck people? King of Dragon Pass Listen on the Episode Page Listen on Soundcloud Listen in iTunes Also be sure to check out our new Patreon page! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gormongous Posted October 29, 2015 ...discuss the finer points of negotiating with duck people? There are no finer points! They are not Orlanthi, they do not fight, and they do not own cattle, so some tribute must be extracted from them, if only for appearances. Not too much, but enough to use as precedent in the future if they complain of unfair treatment by your tribe. I am beyond excited about this podcast. It makes me wish that I could send in questions about the game, just to hear more smart people talk about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Troy Goodfellow Posted October 29, 2015 Just after we recorded, Soren Johnson asked if we'd like to talk to the designer. Too late for the show, but something to think about for a future episode for sure! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spacerumsfeld Posted October 29, 2015 King of Dragon Pass is currently 50% on all platforms except GOG. Here is a Steam link for those interested: http://store.steampowered.com/app/352220/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Posted October 29, 2015 King of Dragon Pass is currently 50% on all platforms except GOG. Here is a Steam link for those interested: http://store.steampowered.com/app/352220/ $5 for the iOS version? Sold! Seems like it would be a terrific ipad game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gaizokubanou Posted October 29, 2015 Just after we recorded, Soren Johnson asked if we'd like to talk to the designer. Too late for the show, but something to think about for a future episode for sure! ooo this podcast is just too good... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unimural Posted October 29, 2015 It's been a good long while since I've play with the ducks, but one of the many things, for me, that differentiates King of Dragon Pass from most other strategy titles is the relative lack of a time pressure. Something it has in common with CK II as well. What I mean by this that there's really no way of falling too far behind. There's no tech tree to climb, no limited resources creating pressure to constantly move forward. Certainly the events do tick by, and probably there are some gates you have to pass, or you won't be able to win the game. However, in general, the game is relative sedate: as Jon Shafer said, the game is more about the game happening to you instead of you happening to the world. You won't be out-teched, and even if you do poorly now, a couple of good seasons, a lucky raid or two and you're very much back in the game. Also, I vaguely recalling a feeling that the game almost tries to prevent you from hoarding your resources, and understanding that was the moment the game clicked with me. That if you have a surplus of something, you should use that surplus to gain something, anything, instead of trying to hoard more. The other key moment was realizing the CYOA rituals don't necessarily have only 1 single possible correct answer. I really liked Bruce's comment about the game being a story of answering what civilization is for this clan. It's a really powerful theme, and it's executed so well, it is silly. The characters really do feel grounded. There are traditions, roots, but even those traditions were new things at one time. And as the player you get to juggle between respecting the traditions and forging your own way. Marvelous stuff. Also, I think it might be worth to mention that the Gamedesign Roundtable had an episode with David Dunham a couple of years ago: http://thegamedesignroundtable.com/2013/08/26/episode-42/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gormongous Posted October 29, 2015 Also, I vaguely recalling a feeling that the game almost tries to prevent you from hoarding your resources, and understanding that was the moment the game clicked with me. That if you have a surplus of something, you should use that surplus to gain something, anything, instead of trying to hoard more. This is such an excellent point. One of the most amazing things about King of Dragon Pass, a thing that makes it feel so grounded in a foreign culture of a distant time, is that most of the traditional rubrics of success don't really apply to the game. Cattle are the ultimate wealth, but bigger herds require more defense, which means a larger tribe that proportionally makes the wealth less impressive and useful, and at a certain point your herd is simply indefensible because of its size. Goods are good for trading and small sacrifices, but they're meaningless to many tribes and in some situations, and again the more you have the less they're worth. Even having a large clan, while good for war, is hard to feed and becomes an unmanageable engine for generating no-win disputes between people. You can't really "beat" King of Dragon Pass by getting bigger or more sophisticated. There's discovering rituals and building temples, but those are more of a safety net than a prerequisite for progress. Instead, the watchwords of the game are "consensus" and "tradition." Promoting harmony between people, even if they aren't inclined to agree, is how you win the game, while avoiding failure relies on knowing your clan's history and being able to emulate it flawlessly. I love it, words cannot say. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
panzeh Posted October 29, 2015 This is such an excellent point. One of the most amazing things about King of Dragon Pass, a thing that makes it feel so grounded in a foreign culture of a distant time, is that most of the traditional rubrics of success don't really apply to the game. Cattle are the ultimate wealth, but bigger herds require more defense, which means a larger tribe that proportionally makes the wealth less impressive and useful, and at a certain point your herd is simply indefensible because of its size. Goods are good for trading and small sacrifices, but they're meaningless to many tribes and in some situations, and again the more you have the less they're worth. Even having a large clan, while good for war, is hard to feed and becomes an unmanageable engine for generating no-win disputes between people. You can't really "beat" King of Dragon Pass by getting bigger or more sophisticated. There's discovering rituals and building temples, but those are more of a safety net than a prerequisite for progress. Instead, the watchwords of the game are "consensus" and "tradition." Promoting harmony between people, even if they aren't inclined to agree, is how you win the game, while avoiding failure relies on knowing your clan's history and being able to emulate it flawlessly. I love it, words cannot say. Personally, i'm not as high on the game, but it really does do something unique. I guess maybe i'm a bit too given to other strategy games in that I feel this game is a lot more of a text adventure with a strategy game framing device. You can make choices, but not as many as you might think, and while there are a lot of ways to lose, there's only one path to the end game and it's only tagentially related to the strategy part. Still, I think it did the story thing a lot better than, say, SMAC did. That being said, the pretense of being a strategy game is a really important device because it makes the stakes feel a lot bigger. I feel like a modern indie developer would avoid it but these guys did a really good job. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gormongous Posted October 29, 2015 Personally, i'm not as high on the game, but it really does do something unique. I guess maybe i'm a bit too given to other strategy games in that I feel this game is a lot more of a text adventure with a strategy game framing device. You can make choices, but not as many as you might think, and while there are a lot of ways to lose, there's only one path to the end game and it's only tagentially related to the strategy part. Still, I think it did the story thing a lot better than, say, SMAC did. That being said, the pretense of being a strategy game is a really important device because it makes the stakes feel a lot bigger. I feel like a modern indie developer would avoid it but these guys did a really good job. It's true that the design has the philosophy of "many ways to fail, one way to succeed," but I think that's valuable when the way to succeed is often counter-intuitive and so evocative of a pre-modern mindset that takes effort and imagination to inhabit. It's a shame that, once you've beaten the game, the only way really to discover the game anew is to place handicaps, whether by playing suboptimally as a War or Peace tribe rather than a Balanced one or by simply trying to be more modern and progressive in your approach to the game. Still, it's a reason that I have high hopes for A-Sharp's next game, if it ever comes to a platform other than iOS. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sclpls Posted October 29, 2015 $5 for the iOS version? Sold! Seems like it would be a terrific ipad game. You won't regret it, and having this on your iPad during a long flight is glorious. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bletchley_Geek Posted October 30, 2015 I didn't pick it up through the podcast, but maybe people will be interested to learn that Dave Dunham is working on a sequel for KODP, titled "Six Ages". He's been documenting - rather sparsely - the development process on this blog http://sixages.blogspot.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spacerumsfeld Posted October 30, 2015 I did mention it once, but it's probably easy to miss. Thanks for posting the link. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bletchley_Geek Posted October 30, 2015 I did mention it once, but it's probably easy to miss. Thanks for posting the link. No worries, it was a great show - you guys had an awesome discussion going on and probably your comment didn't register in my brain. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jon Shafer Posted October 30, 2015 Glad you guys enjoyed the show. And yeah, we had to keep it close to an hour so there was a ton of stuff we didn't even get into, and no doubt every fan of the game will be able to cite something important that we missed! - Jon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gaizokubanou Posted October 30, 2015 I'm squee-ing super hard here by your presence Mr. Shafer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Posted October 30, 2015 Also, I think it might be worth to mention that the Gamedesign Roundtable had an episode with David Dunham a couple of years ago: http://thegamedesignroundtable.com/2013/08/26/episode-42/ Hey, I know that podcast! We're crossing the streams. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jon Shafer Posted October 30, 2015 Haha, yeah, I probably should have squeezed a TGDRT plug in somewhere but there was already so much to talk about that it slipped my mind. - Jon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Disparanoia Posted October 31, 2015 When are you going to talk about Civ: Beyond Earth Rising Tide? God damn it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Posted October 31, 2015 When are you going to talk about Civ: Beyond Earth Rising Tide? God damn it! It's on the schedule for the very near future! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Valorian Endymion Posted October 31, 2015 King of Dragon Pass is amazing game - I too agree a lot with how the game does manage to convey that you need a different mind set to play it and the Hero Quest remind me of the saying "the ritual keep the myth alive" (no sure if I am saying this right). I do feel that overall the randomness aspect o KODP does work fine, because thing appear to happen in context which make sense, sure you still might got funny results like trying to raid someone clan and find out that they did the same to you at the very same time. However, during the Hero Quest part I feel this show some issues, mostly due the lack of feedback due the fact that know the right answer isn´t enough sometimes, it depend on the character abilities, but you might not know that and get stuck failling in Hero Quest, even knowing the right answer because the guy you send fail in a hidden test somewhere. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr Mario Kart Posted November 1, 2015 Parliamentary inquiry: Does 3ma have any other vanity domain or is it just the one? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bletchley_Geek Posted November 1, 2015 King of Dragon Pass is amazing game - I too agree a lot with how the game does manage to convey that you need a different mind set to play it and the Hero Quest remind me of the saying "the ritual keep the myth alive" (no sure if I am saying this right). I do feel that overall the randomness aspect o KODP does work fine, because thing appear to happen in context which make sense, sure you still might got funny results like trying to raid someone clan and find out that they did the same to you at the very same time. However, during the Hero Quest part I feel this show some issues, mostly due the lack of feedback due the fact that know the right answer isn´t enough sometimes, it depend on the character abilities, but you might not know that and get stuck failling in Hero Quest, even knowing the right answer because the guy you send fail in a hidden test somewhere. The setting - Glorantha - is unique in many respects. One of them is that the diverse cultures and civilizations in there make "sense" given their setting. Greg Stafford development of Glorantha was informed by studies on religion and it shows. I do agree with your position regarding KODP "randomness", yet for different reasons: * In a game like KODP, do we really need to prop with a "simulation" the tale the player weaves as it interacts with the game? I'd say that an uber-detailed simulation - say, using Chaosium's percentile-based RPG system - would be overkill and not all that interesting. With the exception of people who approach strategy games as an adversarial search problem to be solved with the minimax algorithm. * There are indeed "hidden" tests, as in "not obvious unless you're roleplaying", but I have never felt those in the Hero Quests. If you use a follower of a particular God to do his/her hero quests, and you don't fumble with the questions, you'll get through. Exploration, trading and combat are indeed subject to randomness. But in all cases, the player has obvious instruments to influence possible outcomes. For instance, when setting up a caravan, the number of weaponthanes, size, etc. influence strongly the chances of coming across bandits and how the encounter plays out. The size of exploration parties is another example: the smaller the party the higher the chances it finds something interesting, but also higher the chances that you never get to hear back from them. I write this with the Android version of KODP - I do remember that in the original PC version there were a few bugs affecting this and other aspects of the game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spacerumsfeld Posted November 1, 2015 Parliamentary inquiry: Does 3ma have any other vanity domain or is it just the one? As far as I know it's just threemovesahead.net Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bletchley_Geek Posted November 2, 2015 There was some discussion on the podcast as well about to what degree it made sense to insert storytelling elements in strategy games, or how well KODP heavy storytelling elements would work on other strategy games. I am not sure I followed the discussion (I am ESL) and I was left with the sensation that, for the majority of the panel , storytelling in strategy games is "nice to have" but not essential or too hard. Actually, that could totally be the topic of a future podcast. Besides Jon on-going project there are a few games out there where it has been attempted - with varying degrees of success to do so: Gaslamp Games' Clockworld Empires: they're using Twine to work out the story arcs followed by their random event generator, still early days, though. If events were to be triggered by the state of the game as influenced by player actions, it could be a very interesting system. Civilization Beyond Earth: the Quest system in Civ BE didn't really go beyond the "explore the map, bump onto the goody hut" paradigm of Civilization (you could say it was streamlining it, doing away with the busy work of having the explorer unit to frolic around the map). It could have been so much more than that. Another poster requested a podcast con Rising Tide... and I humbly propose a topic to discuss in that show Crusader Kings / Europa Universalis / Hearts of Iron event engines. In the former one can see actual story arcs, in the latter we see event chains mimicking long term processes of social, economic or religious transformation. Also, in the latter, there are 'faction-based' mechanics to model the inertia of governments If anyone knows (or has a readily available memory) of other attempts at integrating storytelling (or rather, interactive fiction) into strategy gaming, I'd love to hear about them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
