Episode 292: Advanced Squad Leader

[Rob Zacny]

Bruce and Julian sit down to talk about the often mentioned (but rarely truly discussed) Advanced Squad Leader. Joining them are Jeff Hallet and Dave Kleinschmidt, hosts of what is undeniably the best ASL podcast on the internet, The 2 Half-Squads. ASL holds a reputation for being one of the most detailed and fully fleshed-out wargames available. The flexible combat system lends itself to memorable games that cover a wide variety of scenarios.

 

For even more in-depth discussion of ASL, visit The 2 Half-Squads: http://www.the2halfsquads.com/

 

Listen here.

[ExitDose]

ASL? This is the episode where I stare mournfully at Decision At Elst and realize that I'll never play it or its ASLSK campaign.

 

On the bright side, I discovered John Tillers Squad Battles series a few weeks ago, so I at least have that to scratch my tactical, turn-based itch.

 

RIP John Hill

[Troy Goodfellow]

We definitely need to look at the Squad Battles games. Such variety.

[hexgrid]

My experience with ASL was brief; back in the early 90s I knew someone who had it, but we never managed to scrape up the time to really play it.  I've always been interested to try it, though, and this podcast is giving me the itch...

[derbius]

A good episode and one which reminded me of the fun I had 30 years ago when I used to play ASL (and even SL). I think as well as explaining where people could get started with the game though it would have been good if you had pointed out computer games that scratch similar itches. I'm thinking in particular about Combat Mission which to me is ASL for the 21st century in the sense that it offers the same intense simulation (and LOS etc) but without needing to consult as many rules and, being on a computer, brings better graphics, realism and fog of war. But with the same number of “stories” that result about hero squads, unkillable tanks and the like. It's not without flaws certainly, but if you like ASL you may well like CM too. There are other hardcore squad level sims as well though not that I have liked as much (the Russian-made one springs to mind but I can't remember its name).

[Salacious Snake]

There are other hardcore squad level sims as well though not that I have liked as much (the Russian-made one springs to mind but I can't remember its name).

Graviteam Tactics, maybe? I read that its UI is abysmal, and that was in comparison to Combat Mission, which I find pretty damn clunky to begin with.

 

I do enjoy CM, and am particularly looking forward to Black Sea; I liked Shock Force in spite of its various problems.

 

I always wanted to get into Squad Leader, and I'm sure I bought some stuff for it through the years, but I never got up the gumption to put it on the table. I've been eyeballing some of its more recent imitators, like Ghost Panzer as maybe more user-friendly entry points into the genre. I'm excited to listen to this episode on my commute home today.

[sclpls]

This was a fun episode to listen to even though I've never played a game of ASL in my life. I have played the Combat Commander series, and found that to be terrific fun. I think it plays a little bit like ASL reimagined as a card-driven wargame, but listening to the episode it is pretty clear that CC streamlines things a little bit too much, and sacrifices what makes ASL special for the sake of accessibility.

[ExitDose]

We definitely need to look at the Squad Battles games. Such variety.

Almost too much, I want every volume, now.

 

I've been really impressed with the quality of the scenario design. 

[dauntless_dad]

Speaking as an old-time wargamer of the same vintage as Bruce, I enjoyed this episode a lot. However, I feel compelled to admit that I have never played ASL. In fact, I never even played Squad Leader when it was in print. At the time I was more interested in playing battles between machines (tanks, ships, and aircraft) that those between infantrymen, and the 10 complexity rating on the back of the boxes completely dissuaded me from trying them. And I was firmly in the Avalon Hill camp during the AH vs. SPI debates, too!

A few years ago my curiosity finally drove me to buy ASL Starter Kit #1. All that I have done with it is read the rules and put it on the shelf. Even its relative simplicity was more than I wanted to tackle at the time, but after listening to this episode I have the urge to pull it down from the shelf and give it another look. Unfortunately, I find that my brain doesn't seem to have the same reading retention that it did 30 years ago, which makes learning brand new game rules by reading (and re-reading) the rulebook more challenging than it used to be.

Nowadays I play far more games on the PC than I do on the tabletop, and wargames make up a small fraction of my total gaming time. When I do play a WW2 tactical game, it's most likely one of the Combat Mission games (original series or CMx2) on the PC. I still play the original CM games by email with a friend of mine on occasion.

Speaking of which, isn't it about time to devote an episode of TMA to Combat Mission? It would be especially appropriate now, since Combat Mission originated from early efforts to port ASL to the PC.

[Salacious Snake]

Episode 129 is on CM, though it could be worth revisiting.

[ExitDose]

With Black Sea around the corner, maybe we'll get their thoughts on how well CM fares in the modern era. 

 

This is the first Combat Mission release in a while that I've been looking forward to. I love the system, but the choice of subjects in the past haven't been that adventurous. 

[MikeO]

I didn't expect to enjoy this episode much, since I don't much care for ASL. I played SL since '77, and I'm absolutely certain it (and the 'gamettes') was my most played game from '77-'84, when I went to college, and drifted away from wargaming for a while. I did get the ASL rulebook and Beyond Valor in '85, but hardly played it. The one thing that really struck me when I first opened the ASL rules binder was, from the inside binder flap on, the almost unbelievable level of acronym hell. Even as someone who had played the system all the way through GI: Anvil of Victory, it was a huge turnoff. That, along with the fact that I was getting more into D&D and computer games at the time made it easy to leave it on the shelf. I actually pulled out the ASL rulebook a couple of years ago, thinking I might want to give it a try after so long, but after another skim, decided I really didn't want to deal with it.

 

But I can say I did enjoy the episode, and I thought your guests were great. I enjoyed it so much that I went ahead and ordered ASL Starter Kit 1. I imagine I will probably even like the starter kit. I do doubt though that I ever get into full ASL. A lot of the chrome they decided to go with really annoys me, and internalizing the rules well enough to play is a fairly big commitment. Still, one never knows.

 

And RIP John Hill, one of the greats.

[kgsan]

I very much enjoyed the episode.  I played the original Squad Leader back in the early 80s as a teenager.  Having purchased that game and all of its subsequent modules with my fairly limited disposable income, I was turned off when AH then required us to ante up for an expensive new rule book and components in order to keep playing new games in the series.  With that and heading off to college, I never tried ASL.

 

However, your episode has perked my interest.  But when I checked the MMP website I was surprised to find that neither the ASL rule book nor the core module you mentioned, Beyond Valor, are even available for sale.  The MMP website simply says that they are out of stock, without any information as to when they might be available again.  Is this normal for them?  Does anyone have any idea how frequently MMP re-prints/re-releases these items?  Maybe there focus is primarily on just servicing their existing customer base.

[spacerumsfeld]

However, your episode has perked my interest.  But when I checked the MMP website I was surprised to find that neither the ASL rule book nor the core module you mentioned, Beyond Valor, are even available for sale.  The MMP website simply says that they are out of stock, without any information as to when they might be available again.  Is this normal for them?  Does anyone have any idea how frequently MMP re-prints/re-releases these items?  Maybe there focus is primarily on just servicing their existing customer base.

 

They definitely run out of stock on items frequently.  My suspicion is that they have limited cash flow to reprint and keep large inventories of different products, so they have to balance new releases with the need to reprint base titles.  I'm sure if they could keep enough inventory on hand to satisfy every customer's order of any product, they would.

 

That said, these products are all available from multiple secondary vendors, as well as eBay and Boardgamegeek Marketplace.

[kgsan]

Thanks for the info. I was able to snag a copy of Beyond Valor this past week on EBay, for essentially the retail price. The current ASL rules have been a bit harder to locate so far. Thanks again for the episode and I'm looking forward to the rest of the "winter of war gaming" episodes. Have y'all considered covering BFC's latest generation of Combat Mission? I don't play it as much as I did their first generation of Combat Mission, I especially miss their random map generator, but for my money it's still the best computer wargame at the Squad Leader level.

[MonkeyScissors]

The show inspired me to drop around 200 beans on "For King and Country" and "Rising Sun".

[MonkeyScissors]

The ASL Starter kits were a great idea as a gateway into the game series, however it's interesting that ASL is one of the only games where you still have to pay for the rules (and that is literally all you get).  I wonder if they would sell more games if the barrier to entry wasn't so high.  Would posting the rules to at least the first starter set be that bad?

[ExitDose]

It's odd in the current board gaming environment, but I think that Multiman are concerned about piracy using VASL.

 

The price and how regularly core modules go out of print are the things that have put me off ASL the most. 

[misesfan]

I love ASL and have been playing on and off since 85 (of course being an SL/COI/COD/GI player before that). But oh my, those 1/2" are horrifically hard to read and manage.  Its way too fiddly on the physical layer, so thank goodness for VASL.  BUT... I want to teach my kids wargaming, but it wont be ASL.  And I have dreamt about teaching my kids the history of WW2 through the lens of ASL. 

[ericmwalters]

I was one of the original ASL Rulebook and Beyond Valor: ASL Module 1 playtesters, brought on by Don Chappell when we were both Marine officers stationed in Camp Pendleton back in the fledgling days of the Camp Pendleton Conflict Simulations Club in 1984. Everybody has their own story about Squad Leader, the "gamettes," and the move towards Advanced Squad Leader. But in the spirit of the original question the OP asked, I thought I'd pass on my recollections/observations. We lost over half our ASL playtest group at the club over the eight or nine months we struggled through testing the system. It's worth recounting why.

Keep in mind that to volunteer for the ASL playtest was no small undertaking; those that succumbed to Don's "arm-twisting" usually did so willingly. The group of players he got into the playtest all had at least some experience with G.I. Anvil of Victory. It's noteworthy to compare the date of publication of that "gamette" (1982) with the time Don gathered people into the playtest (1984). If you ever played GI, you were typically among those who felt the pain of playing SL with that ruleset.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, the SL engine really peaked with Cross of Iron. There was much more detail for the AFV and ordnance in that game, plus additions for aircraft, cavalry, paradrops, etc., that didn't feel too overly weighty. If you mastered basic SL, it was a small step to master COI--at least, it felt that way. When COD came out, the rivers and small boat rules weren't that bad, but then we started getting into bicycles/motorcyles, scouts, and rules that felt like--at least to me--that the system was beginning to weigh itself down. GI:AOV pretty much redesigned so much of the basic system that it strangled itself; it was no surprise that the effort to create ASL followed so quickly on the heels of that particular gamette. GI was a morass of attempted streamlining which ended up encumbering the overall play experience. It was too much. And it felt like it. Particularly with four rulebooks.

So the bunch that was drawn in to the ASL playtest at Camp Pendleton had the hope that GI could be further redefined and streamlined. People who had given GI a go and played it were up for the detail, they just didn't like the baggage that came with playing. So you didn't have any lightweights in this group.  

Yet within a few months, half the volunteers left the playtest.  

Here are their reasons why. I won't pretend these are all-encompassing, that they reflect the whole of rationales a SL player could have. No, I'm talking about why a hardcore SL player who had mastered COD and at least played a good bit of GI would swear off ASL...and, for some, the SL system entirely.

The first and most immediate reason for the first wave of people to leave was that it was apparent that all the components were going to be redone. There was an expectation, especially after GI, that the replacements made to the counterset with the last SL gamette would still be useable in ASL. It became obvious that this would not be the case: indeed, the entire counterset would be redone. On top of that, the old maps, while still compatible, were not used in the Beyond Valor: ASL Module 1 playtest kit. For many of the die-hard SL-through-GI players, after years of perfectly sifting and sorting all those nationalities in the old system and making substitutions when each new gamette came out, it was too much. They had invested a great deal in their counter storage systems, both monetarily and intellectually, and were reluctant to start over from scratch. Indeed, it seemed to some that AH was intent on extracting every dollar it could out of the SQUAD LEADER addiction. And so, they left. Some went back to playing with the old gamettes, some were so distraught they left the system entirely, disillusioned with what they perceived to be an organized rip off effort by the folks on the Hill.

For those that remained, we pressed on with a xeroxed ruleset of faintly copied typed rules, hand-modified SL-through-GI counters, and B&W reproductions of the maps which were to be in Beyond Valor: ASL Module 1. It was daunting just to get through one complete reading of the rules. Nobody had ever seen anything like it. Overwhelming could not describe the feeling. These guys had juggled four rulebooks and persevered, but the behemoth that was the ASL Rulebook in draft was too much for many. When "the Hill" sent us ten pages of one and two-line changes to be pasted in to our pages--at certain points occurring once every month--it proved to be the last straw. "I just can't do this," many complained, "I just can't." So even more left our diminishing ranks.

For the long-distance endurance types that hung in there to read the rules, comprehend the basic system, insert and adjust that understanding based on the frequent changes from Don Greenwood, there remained the playing of the BEYOND VALOR scenarios. And so we started to breaking them out and giving them a spin.

The next objections were the design decisions in the ASL system itself. Gone was the physical control of snipers dating back to COD. The system and the dice would handle most of them, making snipers a counterbalance to lucky attack and morale check rolls. That did not sit well with some of the grognards. The infantry defensive fire system was also completely different from the old game, taking out a great deal of the chess-like quality that so many were used to. Gone too were the fixed rates of fire for AFVs; you could not determine ahead of time how many shots a tank or ordnance piece could get off from phase to phase. The chance for chaos and absolutely wild streaks of firing increased. The same was done for the machine guns. To many of the old SL-through-GI players, the system redesign had completely changed "their" game. Old tactics no longer worked. All those years of play, honing their tactical judgment and execution skills, now seemed wasted for these veteran players. Yet another wave of playtesters left, some with heavy hearts, some with a sense of utter betrayal as their favorite game system had been fundamentally trifled with too much.

And then there were the scenarios. While there seemed to be some real winners in the BEYOND VALOR set, the lack of programmed instruction and the intricate nature of the system AND the scenarios seemed to defeat players. Lessons learned in "Fighting Withdrawal" didn't seem to carry over well into "The Citadel." Tactics learned in "Mila 18" were unique to that scenario and didn't seem to prepare anyone for any other situation in the box. The scenario set showed the capacity of the ASL system to deal with a wide diversity of situations. The trouble was that this same broad range just discouraged too many players who felt like they could never get a handle on the rules applications from scenario to scenario, much less the scenarios themselves. Where was the easy-to-absorb sequence so essential to basic SL, moving from "The Guards Counterattack" to "The Tractor Factory," to "The Streets of Stalingrad" and thence to "Hedgehog of Piepsk," "Hill 621" and beyond?  

At the end of the day, only a few intrepid ASL souls were left standing. Good thing I was one of them, because when the game system rules and first module were published in 1985, I pretty much already knew how to play. After that, it was much easier to keep up with it.

But I can sympathize with those who took a look at what the system had become and said, "no thanks--this is good for some, but not good for all." They either stayed with the old system (and many did for a long while...and some still do) or they left for different pastures. Some became game designers in their own right, creating Advanced Tobruk System--one of the first imitators, arising out of the old Critical Hit! COMBAT system. Others created the very different Tactical Combat Series. Lock 'N Load followed with its squad-level Vietnam game, Lock 'N Load: Forgotten Heroes – Vietnam, spawning yet another new line. Before long there was an avalanche of squad level games by those who felt that the ASL path was not for them:  Combat Commander Series, Conflict of Heroes series, Valor & Victory, and--most recently--Band of Brothers: Screaming Eagles. No doubt there will be more. MMP, who took over ASL after the demise of AH, created the Advanced Squad Leader Starter Kit series to get people into the basics of the ASL system and--ideally--attract them to the "full" game. But so many like ASLSK just as it is and are happy to stay there. To each their own!

I don't see a need to bring back the old Squad Leader game, particularly given the wide range of choices available today. It was a spectacular title in its day and deserves to garner high prices in the secondary and tertiary market. Unpunched copies still in the shrinkwrap rates collector's item status (and prices) to my mind. But like another wildy popular game in its day, PanzerBlitz, I'd only play it now out of nostalgia. Sure, I could get new players interested in that scale and genre, but why not use a game they could buy for themselves at lower prices?  

A postscript. In 1985, when wargamers watched us ASL playtesters break out the published version of the game, they just stood there and marveled as we played. They were either intrigued or put off, but rarely were they indifferent. Their reactions then aren't much different than the reaction of wargamers to ASL today when you see the game played at conventions all over the world. You are going to be either drawn in or you are going to be turned off by what you observe. It's just how it is.

But isn't that the same for any game?