Tomb Raider

[CaptainFish]

I'm actually working my way through the CrystalD trilogy right now. I've finished Legend and I'm a level and a half through Anniversary.

Lobotomy, I totally agree, even the first article reminded me of the Other M backlash in a lot of ways. In respect to trading one type of sexy for another, a lot of it is aided by technology as well. The ability to render more realistic proportions to greater detail will mean that this character will look more like an actual woman, and probably end up being more attractive in that way. The full drawing reminds me of Sheva Alomar from RE5, who was a not over-sexualized, but still attractively designed fairly realistic proportioned character. (Don't link any of her ridculous costumes to prove me wrong. I prefer default or business Sheva)

Say what you want about Lara's physical design, but I've never really had a problem with her attitude and personality in game. Let's ignore her marketing centerfolds for a moment. Yes she was always confident and strong, and yes that clashed with the fact that she might die on every jump you make, but it really cemented your successes. And in Legend, there were several moments where Lara felt genuine concern or worry, but lame status quo storytelling meant that it never ended in someone getting hurt. No bystanders get hurt in her Yakuza shootout, Zip and Alistair are never injured when they are attacked, and even Amanda doesn't really care about what happened in that tomb. She does have a nice reaction in Nepal, but in a story about her parents legacy, there should be much more room for reflection, sadness and vulnerability. If you want your character have real reactions, you have to give them something to react to. I can't comment on how this is handled in Underworld, but obviously if they're making these changes they can't have really succeeded in making her character more real there.

Some of the changes sound like they'll feed into gameplay, at least. Young Lara makes getting stronger over the course of the game possible, her inexperience could make for interesting survival mechanics and because she's just starting out we could see her do things that wouldn't fit into Lara's strict routine (like using a bow).

All in all this seems like the easy way out. Rather than iterate on a character that has been redeemed to some degree, they've just basically thrown out all their work in favour of an easy reboot. However, I will say that I think the game still sounds interesting mechanics wise, even if it doesn't feel all that Tomb Raidery.

[lobotomy42]

Thunderpeel, I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but a couple of points:

1) I was reacting primarily to the article (which seems like blatant marketing) not the game itself which doesn't yet exist. So it is obviously possible that Crystal Dynamics will make a really awesome well-developed and kickass character/story/etc (though I reserve my skepticism.) And I get that there is a lot more attention paid to these things for women characters than men (see: this thread.) But this article is mostly direct quotes from the developers, and as such is indicative of how the developers want their game to be perceived. And given that they talk almost exclusively about her new look, the message seems to be "Please notice that Lara is sexy in this brand new way, not the old way." They literally state, as you quoted, that new Lara is "what our version of sexy is." I don't see how this is putting words in their mouths, since they said it.

(Side note: What exactly does GI contribute to the article here? The whole piece feels like a marketing document handed directly to the magazine.)

2) I don't think I agree with the need for "vulnerability" to make a character real. (putting aside the question of whether realism should even be a goal in video games) This seems like a standard which is applied far, far more to women characters than men. I cannot think of many "vulnerable" male protagonists in a video game. (The boy in Ico?) Most of the male protagonists presented are, as Tim Schafer said "army dudes." Gritty, tough, morally ambiguous dude who plays by his own rules, etc. Some male video game protagonists are deep, some aren't, but rarely do designers say that they contemplated literally *crippling* them for a portion of the game. Whereas with women, "of course" they must be flawed! That's just realism!

Seriously, did anyone play the old Tomb Raider games and think "These are good, but Lara Croft is just TOO DARN POWERFUL?"

[twmac]

I tried to read that article, and for whatever points Thunderpeel made (I can see that angle from the guys at Crystal Dynamics) there are some uncomfortable moments when they talk about the 'M shape' of Lara's upper lip where I just had to go

As for vulnerability, games are constantly trying to do it for male protagonists, and fail miserably (Gears of War 2 with Dom's Wife, any of the Final Fantasy games I can commit to memory) but when they do get it right (Silent Hill 2? Brutal Legend? Any of the cast members of Psychonauts?) they have done so with more aplomb than female equivalents.

Also, even if that wasn't there intention of the article, that was the effect it had, did you read any of the comments?

Loving the new Lara. GI would you do me a favor, and give us a HD widescreen "new" Lara image so I can put it as my wallpaper!

I love Lara Croft. Even though she's fiction. Even though we'll never meet. I still love her. ;_;

[Hermie]

I had the same concerns as lobotomy when viewing the pictures and article, though I think I'm less thinking of female portrayal in general and more of Lara as an icon?

While the Lara of old was for the most part, as pointed out earlier, a pair of boobs, she was also something that was very rare in the 90s; a strong female protagonist.

Sure, she was plenty objectified, but also idolized by more than a few female gamers that were drawn to her as a girl who was actually allowed to kick ass, instead of a maiden in distress.

[warning: anectodal evidence] One of the mods over at Lucasforums is a 30-something mother of two, who has almost exclusively Lara Croft avatars for 10 years now. Because just like how some people are drawn to John McClane or Gordon Freeman, or heck, me to Scott Pilgrim, she could identify with wanting to be someone like her.

Just like everyone else, I'm basing a lot on just concept art and some marketing, and maybe it will all be rectified by the end of the game, but it was striking to me that this was the first image I've ever seen of Lara Croft that didn't exude confidence through look and stance, but rather helplessness.

[edit]THEN AGAIN, I had a hard time thinking up examples of male protagonists that are cool to the point of idolizing/wanting-to-become-ness. So maybe Lara is a better protagonist than we realize, be it male or female?

[ThunderPeel2001]

And given that they talk almost exclusively about her new look, the message seems to be "Please notice that Lara is sexy in this brand new way, not the old way." They literally state, as you quoted, that new Lara is "what our version of sexy is." I don't see how this is putting words in their mouths, since they said it.

Well, I do have some issues with the article, for sure. It does read like an advert (heh, journalism), and yes it is completely about Lara and how they've changed her. And, because of that, it does almost sound like they're just objectifying her but in a different way. But, as I said at the beginning of this thread, Lara was always going to be at the core of any "reboot", because there's little else that they're likely to change. (I'm sure there'll be some tweaks to the gameplay, but it'll still be a 3rd person shooter, with an archaeology based storyline.) Lara Croft IS Tomb Raider, so I think it's understandable that the discussion focusses on that... even if it is a little creepy.

And, of course, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a female character being sexy. That is not sexist. If the word "sexy" conjures up images of women in bikinis, well, that's not because that's not what the word means...! (Although, yes, women in bikinis can look sexy...) Although the developers talk about her "sex appeal" right at the very end of the article, they talk specifically about it being her brains.

(Side note: What exactly does GI contribute to the article here? The whole piece feels like a marketing document handed directly to the magazine.)

Lol. That's very true. Presumably there were questions that, for whatever reason, GI didn't print...

2) I don't think I agree with the need for "vulnerability" to make a character real. (putting aside the question of whether realism should even be a goal in video games) This seems like a standard which is applied far, far more to women characters than men. I cannot think of many "vulnerable" male protagonists in a video game. (The boy in Ico?) Most of the male protagonists presented are, as Tim Schafer said "army dudes." Gritty, tough, morally ambiguous dude who plays by his own rules, etc. Some male video game protagonists are deep, some aren't, but rarely do designers say that they contemplated literally *crippling* them for a portion of the game. Whereas with women, "of course" they must be flawed! That's just realism!

I can't help but feel you're putting words in the developers mouths here. Especially in the last sentence. People ARE flawed. That IS realism. Men or women. If you're aiming for REALISM, as the developers insist they are, then yes, you're character must have flaws... whether it be male or female.

Do you think Rubi from WET (as linked to in my last post) is a standard that games should be aiming for? I can only assume you think we should, based on what you've just said. Sure, there's plenty of bland, 2D "army dudes". I'm personally sick of them, but you're saying that we should just make "army dudettes", and just leave it at that? I disagree. I think we can make improvement with both male and female characters.

Also, I guess I didn't make what I was trying to say clear enough before. I never said that you need vulnerability to make a character real, I said, "Fully rounded people are vulnerable."

If you're aiming for a fully rounded character, like they explicitly state they are with Lara Croft, then yes: Vulnerability is essential. It can be a component in making something seem "real", but of course it's not required for "realism". You don't to show the "hard ass boss" crying privately in his office to make him seem "real", but you do need something like that if you want to make him fully rounded.

In general, good story-telling technique says your lead character has to have some vulnerabilities. These are usually the things they'll overcome during the course of the story. They also make the character appear more "rounded" and easier to identify with. Even action heroes. When they don't, they come across as being very 2D.

Also, to repeat what I already wrote: Being vulnerable does not equal being weak... We're all vulnerable, but how a character deals with situations when they feel vulnerable defines whether we consider them "strong" or "weak". Do they push on, or do they fall to the floor in a crumpled mess?

John McClane, Luke Skywalker, Frodo Baggins, and Ellen Ripley all push on after they've had a little cry...

That's my main point, otherwise I agree with you.

Edited December 11, 2010 by ThunderPeel2001

[syntheticgerbil]

In late response, didn't they already reboot Lara Croft only in 2004/2005?

Also, I'm tired of the "naming a reboot the same as your franchise/early game" convention. It's starting to come of as a lazy way to convey "reboot", and it gets confusing when you talk about them in retrospect.

(Guilty parties: Prince of Persia, Mortal Kombat, XCOM, DMC, Twisted Metal, The Idle Thumbs Podcast.)

I am guessing they do this so that everyone gets confused about which game they are talking about, making it harder to get criticism out there. I guess by that logic it would be hard to praise the rebooted game with the original name as well.

While the Lara of old was for the most part, as pointed out earlier, a pair of boobs, she was also something that was very rare in the 90s; a strong female protagonist.

Zanthia will always be my only 90s strong female protagonist first and foremost.

(Also typing Zanthia into Google image search is nasty.)

Edited December 12, 2010 by syntheticgerbil

[Patters]

I

(Also typing Zanthia into Google image search is nasty.)

He isn't lying.

[twmac]

Couldn't resist... Wish I had.

Who draws stuff to do with actual Pokemon creatures... And My Little Pony...

[toblix]

I am guessing they do this so that everyone gets confused about which game they are talking about, making it harder to get criticism out there.

I doubt that's their tactic. I think they're going for more of an impact, as if saying "this is the definitive version" and at the same time trying to avoid being seen as a sequel by having a number or subtitle.

[Roderick]

I forgot about Zanthia! I humbly ask you to forgive me! I love Zanthia (not in a Pokémon-sexing way).

[toblix]

About Zanthia, I just remember going through the voice files on the Hand of Fate CD right after playing it, and I hit upon an almost pornographic sequence of utterances. I tried searching for references, but it seems I'm the only one that noticed.

[syntheticgerbil]

I doubt that's their tactic. I think they're going for more of an impact, as if saying "this is the definitive version" and at the same time trying to avoid being seen as a sequel by having a number or subtitle.

I guess it's just weird as it seems the last three or four games (speaking as someone who doesn't even play Tomb Raider and really shouldn't be in this thread) have gone to great lengths to distance themselves from the strange looking big breasted polygon woman of the late 90s who appeared regularly in all the game and non-game magazines, sprung an entire series of idiotic nude codes kids loved to make up and post on cheat sites, had trashy T&A comic book spin offs, and had trashy T&A real life model shoots with multiple models which all led up to a presumably bad series of movies. I guess the brand recognition is important for Crystal Dynamics, but there seems to have been a lot of work done to get away from the original obviously flawed character that made her so famous in the first place and establish a new more acceptable one in her place. Almost seems futile to me to keep trying to top the separation at this point.

I forgot about Zanthia! I humbly ask you to forgive me! I love Zanthia (not in a Pokémon-sexing way).

Maybe someone could do pornographic fan art of The Hand?

About Zanthia, I just remember going through the voice files on the Hand of Fate CD right after playing it, and I hit upon an almost pornographic sequence of utterances. I tried searching for references, but it seems I'm the only one that noticed.

What?! I feel compelled to check this out but I really shouldn't goofing around right now. I recall the voices files on the first two Kyrandia CD versions were easily accessibly.

[toblix]

A trailer is:

RN7_8Yholm4

I think this is the least perverted trailer for a game with a female protagonist I've ever seen, which is interesting.

[twmac]

That was alright, couple of little plot holes in the video (like what happened to the guy that was on the same side of the boat as her when she started running).

Would have been a nice little nod to the reboot nature if she had been listening to a Portable CD player in the beginning rather than an MP3 player.

As teasers go though, it was one long pre-rendered cutscene that did nothing to appease my appetite.

[Lu]

Set the tone alright, but I usually don't care much for CG only trailers. Certainly looked nice!

[vimes]

I really like the tone of the trailer and what it hints for the gameplay, but the dialogs and intonation-less voice acting really sound terrible... or maybe it's just me ?

[Lu]

It's not just you.

[subbes]

I didn't think it was completely intonationless. A bit flat, maybe, but I've become a bit fed up with everyone in game trailers SHOUTING and YELLING because THE WORLD IS ENDING (ALSO YOU ARE A GRIM AND GRITTY SPAAACE MUHREEN) etc. so it's refreshing to have emphasis that isn't screamed at me.

[Roderick]

I didn't much care for the monologue in that trailer. Adventure found me? Honestly, that's just stringing one cliché after the other. Game writing can be better than this. It's like they're trying to make it as clichéd as possible, because they don't dare to reach for something greater? I don't know.

[lobotomy42]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-06-13-lara-croft-attempted-rape-will-make-tomb-raider-players-want-to-protect-her

The series' young heroine will lose her best friend, be beaten, bruised, kidnapped, and finally be subjected to an attempted rape.

...

"Her skin is still bare on the arms and there are going to be rips and tears on her clothes, but it won't be about being revealing. It's a way of saying that through these tough situations, there is a beauty and vulnerability coming through. I think that is sexy in its own way."

Emphasis mine.

[Roderick]

The series' young hero will lose his best friend, be beaten, bruised, kidnapped, and finally be subjected to an attempted rape.

...

"His skin is still bare on the arms and there are going to be rips and tears on his clothes, but it won't be about being revealing. It's a way of saying that through these tough situations, there is a beauty and vulnerability coming through. I think that is sexy in its own way."

Changes mine.

[Lu]

"When people play Lara, they don't really project themselves into the character. They're more like 'I want to protect her.' There's this sort of dynamic of 'I'm going to this adventure with her and trying to protect her.'"

Maybe they should just shut up.

[brkl]

[Gwardinen]

Yeah that sentiment is super dumb, and has made it suddenly very difficult to defend this game to some people I know who are sensitive to issues of abuse to women. The comparison that they were making before with Die Hard is much better and more appealing. John McClane is shown as a human with limitations, and is then put through hell and becomes heroic in the process. That is a solid, interesting and unoffending arc. This has suddenly cast the game back into the potentially sexist and exploitative position it was in before.

I really hope the game is actually good enough to justify my hope in it.

[brkl]

Well, the game can still have that Die Hard quality even if it's not intended. But it's another example of how so many gamers and developers are just very lost.