Why some guy I know is going to pirate CoD 6 (and why I hate the average gamer)

[Patters]

So a Friend was complaining about the RRP for CoD 6 on PC which sparked an argument about console and PC gaming, mostly a guy being biggoted about how PC games are better than console games, as well as straight up hypocrisy.

Note I have not corrected any grammar or spelling

Person 1 £54.99?!?! Fuck you, Activision. Fuck you a thousand times. For that price, it better fucking grant my every wish. This is one person who will be stealing your game instead. So there. about an hour ago · Comment · Like

Person 2:bwhich game? about an hour ago

Me: Might not be able to play online easily the game uses a peer to peer method of connection, which will likely to be heavily policed. about an hour ago · Delete

Person 3: and thats a good thing, and i presume your on about COD MW2 about an hour ago

Person 1: Yeah. about an hour ago

Person 3:the price isnt nice but its not exactly a regular thing so dont be a cheap skate about it and if its really that bad dont buy it, no ones forcing you to about an hour ago

Person 1:"regular thing" its a game. I'm not paying 55 quid for a game. Activision are one of those companies who complain about piracy, the leading reason for which is the high price of games, hiking the price is just stupid. and by the way, normal games usually cost around £35... thats a weeks shopping for me. about an hour ago

Person 3: your wrong regular games are ment to cost £50 rrp its only the if i dare say "good will " of the shops that lower the prices so they can compete and actually attract the customers. If everyone did charge the RRP for the game then this generation of consoles would be very very bare stale and boring. a if thats the case then why dont you wait till its out borrow it off someone or just wait till you see if cheap enough second hand? 57 minutes ago

Person 2: borrow < download. second hand < download. game maker gets nothing out of any of those three scenarios. and if anyone is stupid enough to pay £55 for a call of duty game, they deserve to be robbed. 50 minutes ago

Person 3: doesnt downloadin make you a cheap skate that deserves to get banned of x-box live? and yeah ill buy it but only the basic version of the game 48 minutes ago

Person 2: anyone playing an FPS on xbox live deserves to get banned. That genre is being raped up the arse by an inferior control system. 47 minutes ago

Person 3: ohh no your not a PC whore are you that looks down on Consoles because the holy mouse and keyboard is better in your view are you? 45 minutes ago

Person 2:worse. I'm just someone who hates playing games like a cripple. Most of the FPS games that have come out on here having been console conversions, with very little tweaking for the PC environment, i.e. enemies still react to a slow retarded controller system, and the god damn 3rd person perspective being dominant in a genre called "First Person Shooter". I'm simply someone who cant justify paying for a games that are easy enough for a 2 year old to complete it in one sitting. 39 minutes ago

Person 3:

1. You either play really bad games that can be finished by a 2 year old in one sitting. 2.PC gaming is on its arse so anuything thats from a PC comes to consoles for the money . 3.What 3rd person games have you played on that are called First person? gears of war being a game thats on bioth PC and consoles comes to mind as a 3rd person and is recognised and 3rd person. Also As someone whos done COD 4 on veteran including the Mile high club i can safley say that the AI is not in the slightest bit as slow as you put it. 34 minutes ago

Person 3:P.s I download games for my CFW PSP an the D.S with my R4 card because i dont believe the content matches the price for those kind of games so i cant start an tell you downloadings all that wrong. 19 minutes ago

Person 1: Also, RRP for PC games is on average £35. PC games have always been cheaper than Console games, because developers know PC gamers generally won't buy any old shit. We're a cranky proud bunch we are. 16 minutes ago

Person 3: I know and im not trying to defend Consoles at all im just displaying Facts. Im gonna go on Empire total war now !! 13 minutes ago

Just to state I love a lot of PC games, I just hate a lot of the players (and people in general). Particularly those that seem to know nothing about the industry.

Sorry just needed to get that out.

[elmuerte]

Isn't the reason why PC games are usually cheaper than Console games due to the fact that there is no platform provider that needs their cut (i.e. Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo)?

Also, downloading software and using it (without buying a license) is not pirating, it's just plain and simple copyright infringement. If you would create a physical copy and sell it claiming it's a original copy, then you would be pirating.

Anyway, I agree. People who boycott a game (because of its price) by playing an illegitimate copy are morons, idiots, etc.

[n0wak]

Saying that "the price doesn't match the content" is fine, but using it as an excuse to download the game for free is the most retarded fucking thing. I'm sorry, but your friend is an idiot. If he thinks that it's overpriced, he shouldn't fucking buy it. Is that so complicated? And if he's complaining about the perceived value of something, which he doesn't agree with, and then downloads and plays that game then he's fucking proving the publisher right. There is value in the product. The publisher is pricing it correctly.

Gaming is a luxury product. If you think otherwise, and think of it as a mere commodity, then you are deluded.

[Irishjohn]

Either boycott the game or don't. Playing an illegal copy is not a very accurate interpretation of the term "boycott."

I thought when I saw the thread post that you were going to have an attack of elitism against the "average gamer" but you're being completely reasonable and I'm with you.

I will say though, the trumped up price for MW2 in the UK is a bit cheeky. It gets console players into the tricky situation of used games; I would rather buy copies that get money back to the developers but sometimes I can't afford the full-price copy of the game.

[Patters]

Saying that "the price doesn't match the content" is fine, but using it as an excuse to download the game for free is the most retarded fucking thing. I'm sorry, but your friend is an idiot. If he thinks that it's overpriced, he shouldn't fucking buy it. Is that so complicated? And if he's complaining about the perceived value of something, which he doesn't agree with, and then downloads and plays that game then he's fucking proving the publisher right. There is value in the product. The publisher is pricing it correctly.

Gaming is a luxury product. If you think otherwise, and think of it as a mere commodity, then you are deluded.

Don't be sorry about it. I love how people say something along the lines of 'well I don't want to pay £/$X for Y item, so I won't pay anything' I feel the exact same thing about music and hence I do not own any illegally obtained music whatsoever.

[syntheticgerbil]

Don't be sorry about it. I love how people say something along the lines of 'well I don't want to pay £/$X for Y item, so I won't pay anything' I feel the exact same thing about music and hence I do not own any illegally obtained music whatsoever.

What if it's an obscure B-side only released on a compilation disc of some sort or hidden on some rare 7" only available in some sort of country not your own?

But yeah, while I do spend money on Japanese import CDs for extra tracks, I don't search for singles all over the world by some artists just to own an obscure song. And I am definitely not going to buy an obscure 7" to rip a song or remix so I can feel like I've done my part to pay for the music.

So yeah, I own a lot of CDs, even many singles with a lot of exclusive tracks, but I also download a ton of more obscure songs and demos that RIAA record companies would sue me for if I they were to find out. I say if they don't want me to download an artists scattered songs among many releases, then they'll do me the favor of releasing a nice compilation disc of b-sides, remixes, and other rarities and I'll put down 10-15 bucks for a bunch of previously unreleased subpar tracks. Of course, that almost never happens for most bands or artists.

Anyway, I guess I'm trying to say the music analogy doesn't *exactly* fit, because it's somewhat of a different circumstance that of course carries the same type of fines, but is a different kind of stealing sometimes.

Yeah, if your friend doesn't want to buy a game because he perceives it as overpriced, then that's silly, he should just never play it at all. If someone released a game for even 300 pounds, it would be nicer if no one would give it the time a day than to do some kind of weird spite against the company by downloading it instead. More realistically I would think your friend should just calm down and give it some time to drop in price or see what kind of deals he can find online or in stores if he is not happy with the MSRP. Afterall if he loves Call of Duty so much, to me it would make sense that he should support the game makers somehow so that he can get more later on.

But for an extreme instance, along the lines of the rare music analogy, I think it would be totally unrealistic for someone to go and buy new Japanese copies of Mother 3 for GBA so they can figure out how to to dump their cart on the PC, and then apply the English patch in order to keep it legal. I also really doubt most people are going to buy Japanese copies of Policenauts just to dump the ISO and apply the English patch as well. I would also never expect anyone to buy the FM Towns version of Loom or any Lucasarts game as well to play it within ScummVM. Undoubtedly some people have gone the legal route for both (as Steve Gaynor even mentioned in the podcast for Policenauts), but I would bet most people would not go through that much inconvenience to play a game they really want legally.

So I guess all that jumbled mess of my words is to say, I can see how your friend sort of doesn't want to go through the inconvenience of a high price to play the game, but I think there are different levels of "pirating" I guess.

There's also probably the fact that even applying English patches to import games breaks some sort of copyright law.

Also I am a copyright breaking jerk as well, because while I legitimately buy all of my games(MUST HAVE BOX AND MANUAL!), I download roms for cellphone games that are readily available to purchase and instead play them with an emulator, because I have no interest in buying any game to play on my cellphone, which I think is a stupid platform (at least on the one I have), and cellphone games are usually crap and I just download mini versions of licensed games like Rayman, Prince of Persia, and Metal Gear Solid just out of collecting type OCD.

I could really go on and on about more rules I've bent or violated, but I guess none are at all as blatant as downloading a brand new game instead of buying it because I don't agree with the price.

Edited October 19, 2009 by syntheticgerbil

[Patters]

What if it's an obscure B-side only released on a compilation disc of some sort of hidden on some rare 7" only available in some sort of country not your own?

But yeah, while I do spend money on Japanese import CDs for extra tracks, I don't track singles all over the world for some artists just to own a song and I am definitely not going to buy an obscure 7" to rip a song so I can feel like I've done my part to pay for the music.

So yeah, I own a lot of CDs, but I also download a ton of more obscure songs and demos that RIAA record companies would think I shouldn't.

Anyway, I guess I'm trying to say the music analogy doesn't *exactly* fit, because it's somewhat of a different circumstance that carries the same type of fines, but is a different kind of stealing sometimes.

Yeah, if your friend doesn't want to buy a game because he perceives it as overpriced, then that's silly, he should just never play it at all. If someone released a game for even 300 pounds, it would be nicer if no one would give it the time a day than to do some kind of weird spite by downloading it. More realistically I would think your friend should just give it some time to drop in price or see what kind of deals he can find online or in stores if he is not happy with the MSRP.

But for an extreme instance, along the lines of the rare music analogy, I think it would be unrealistic for someone to go and buy new Japanese copies of Mother 3 for GBA so they can figure out how to to dump their cart on the PC, and then apply the English patch in order to keep it legal. I also really doubt most people are going to buy Japanese copies of Policenauts just to dump the ISO and apply the English patch as well. Undoubtedly some people have gone the legal route for both (as Steve Gaynor even mentioned in the podcast for Policenauts), but I would be most would not go through that much inconvenience to play a game they really want legally.

So I guess all that jumbled mess of my words is to say, I can see your friend sort of doesn't want to go through the inconvenience of a high price to play the game, but I think there are different levels of pirating I guess.

There's also probably the fact that even applying English patches to import games breaks some sort of copyright law.

Also I am a copyright breaking jerk as well, because while I legitimately buy almost every game (MUST HAVE BOX AND MANUAL!), I download roms for cellphone games that are readily and play them with an emulator, because I have no interest in purchasing any game to play on my cellphone, which I think is a stupid platform (at least on the one I have), and cellphone games are usually crap and I just download mini versions of licensed games like Rayman, Prince of Persia, and Metal Gear Solid just out of collecting type OCD.

With the cases of rare and out of print Music or games I see it slightly differently, because then there is no money going to the person or people who produced it, which isn't to say that I obtain these versions, but I see why people do.

[syntheticgerbil]

With the cases of rare and out of print Music or games I see it slightly differently, because then there is no money going to the person or people who produced it, which isn't to say that I obtain these versions, but I see why people do.

Well I guess what I meant to say is if you are buying a brand new import single or record, money is going to the artist. New copies of Earthbound or Mother 3 are still available from some Japanese merchants, but everyone who wants to play it in English just downloads it instead.

[Patters]

Well I guess what I meant to say is if you are buying a brand new import single or record, money is going to the artist. New copies of Earthbound or Mother 3 are still available from some Japanese merchants, but everyone who wants to play it in English just downloads it instead.

well, if you import Mother 3, you are giving money to the developer, yet if you don't understand Japanese you cannot enjoy it, yet with music you can enjoy it Independent of the language. With a text heavy game, you would pay the same price irrelevant to which language it was in, so if you import it you would be paying more (initial cost, shipping and possible taxes), so a smaller percentage of money will make it back to the developer, meaning that despite the same amount going back to the Dev, the actual cost may well be multiples higher than that it is originally priced. I myself have imported both Albums (a few small American bands whose albums haven't seen a wide release) and Games (Direct from Telltale).

Pretty much my main point is if you can enjoy the product in its current form you should definitely pay for it, if not and someone has made it accessible, then I see far less of a problem with it being obtained illegitimately, and differently with it if can be enjoyed in its original form.

[lobotomy42]

Saying that "the price doesn't match the content" is fine, but using it as an excuse to download the game for free is the most retarded fucking thing. I'm sorry, but your friend is an idiot. If he thinks that it's overpriced, he shouldn't fucking buy it. Is that so complicated? And if he's complaining about the perceived value of something, which he doesn't agree with, and then downloads and plays that game then he's fucking proving the publisher right. There is value in the product. The publisher is pricing it correctly.

Gaming is a luxury product. If you think otherwise, and think of it as a mere commodity, then you are deluded.

To play devil's advocate...

Obviously, gaming is a luxury product and no one is inherently "entitled" to play any particular game, regardless of ridiculous pricing choices. No one's injuring you or harming you by locking you out of a game or pricing things in a way that discourages you from buying them.

But by that same token, it's a little unclear who exactly is hurt by downloading illegal copies, too. If I'm a game developer, there are people who are willing to buy my game, and people who aren't willing to buy my game. Someone who downloads my game without paying for it hasn't reached into my bank account and plucked out $50. And games undergo price discrimination fairly heavily, too - You can usually get the same game for $50 at launch, $20-30 a year later, $5 when it goes on sale on Steam, and eventually less than that when it's packaged as part of a value compilation. (Basically, this is charging different customers different amounts based on how long they're willing to wait to play the game, or whether they're willing to buy without the manual, or a scratched disc, or....) So it's not as if the game has some inherently-fixed value that the developer "lost."

I'm not saying everyone should go pirate games willy-nilly. But it does seem equally self-righteous to say "If you're unwilling to pay full price, don't play the game" as to say "If you charge more than I want, then I won't pay anything." The whole situation is complicated as a result of laws and economies that evolved prior to the information age and don't always make sense as a result.

[JonCole]

On a somewhat related note, I just wrote up an article for Bitmob about how Infinity Ward has really destroyed the PC version of MW2 and how I've chosen not to buy it as a result (rather than pirate it, ):

http://bitmob.com/index.php/mobfeed/twisting-the-knife-infinity-ward-leaves-pc-behind.html

</shameless plug>

[MrHoatzin]

In general, I am wary of rationalizations on this subject of piracy/copyright/file sharing. I am especially wary of moral arguments because they tend to be manichean and fail to comfortably address a large number of real world situations.

Why do we feel we have to explain how stealing something is a just act? Why can't we just make peace with the fact that we're parasites with demonstrable disdain for other people's hard work and/or compensation structures?

Edit/contd: Maybe if we accepted this, we could come up with new models of thing-at-large-making that would address our concerns and allow us to pay for things we enjoy, and receive fair compensation for things we create.

[Nachimir]

Why do we feel we have to explain how stealing something is a just act? Why can't we just make peace with the fact that we're parasites with demonstrable disdain for other people's hard work and/or compensation structures?

If I had big sigs on forums, this would be in them

I tend to keep out of these kind of debates nowadays, since they seem to centre mostly on people processing their own squeamishness. I'm not a massive pirate, but that still goes no less so for me.

[gdf]

On a somewhat related note, I just wrote up an article for Bitmob about how Infinity Ward has really destroyed the PC version of MW2 and how I've chosen not to buy it as a result (rather than pirate it, ):

http://bitmob.com/index.php/mobfeed/twisting-the-knife-infinity-ward-leaves-pc-behind.html

</shameless plug>

Hey dude, plug away.

[Tanukitsune]

Piracy is a douchy thing, but raising the price is too... Didn't the CEO of Activision say he'd rise the prices even more if he could?

Games are a luxury item? I've never heard of people buying NEW Armani suits or Mercedes at 20% of their original price... The 360 IS NOT a luxury item, a luxury item wouldn't break that often... And what about shovelware? Games cost more during the NES, SNES era too... How exactly are they luxury items?

I wouldn't even consider an iPhone a luxury item since it's practically made in a way that will force you to buy a new one in two or three years... Luxury items last MUCH longer!

[miffy495]

Luxury items don't need to actually be luxurious, man. All it means is something which is not necessary to get by. Any entertainment product can be classified as a luxury item.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Argh. This is too hard to read about an hour ago

[Tanukitsune]

Luxury items don't need to actually be luxurious, man. All it means is something which is not necessary to get by. Any entertainment product can be classified as a luxury item.

You do know you could really just survive with a rock and live in cave, right?

The definition of luxury item are extremely high quality items that are WORTH the price (or atleast worth more than normal items), Häagen-Dazs is better than the average brand, Ferrari is better than the average brand...

Entertainment will never be a luxury item, you can have a luxury entertainment experience with an expensive system, but it rarely reaches the high standard of a luxury item.... Something of varying quality cannot be luxurious!

[ThunderPeel2001]

People choosing to pirate a game or not on its price seems perfectly logical cause and effect... and something Activision needs to factor into their pricing.

If games cost $1,000 each, would you just stop playing them altogether because you couldn't afford them? I don't think any of us would. The sad fact is that being unable to afford a game is probably the most reasonable reason to pirate software... (Not saying that's what these guys are doing, though.)

Also, I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that the people who are decrying pirates don't own a single pirated item. One MP3, one movie, one old game. Or didn't used to when they were younger... which, judging by the way these folks speak, I'm guessing they're pretty young?

Edited October 20, 2009 by ThunderPeel2001

[Nevsky]

Hey dude, plug away.

[Totally OT] Hey, so that's you! I read your 'WTF is Indie' piece at the end of last week. Nice work.

[miffy495]

You do know you could really just survive with a rock and live in cave, right?

The definition of luxury item are extremely high quality items that are WORTH the price (or atleast worth more than normal items), Häagen-Dazs is better than the average brand, Ferrari is better than the average brand...

Entertainment will never be a luxury item, you can have a luxury entertainment experience with an expensive system, but it rarely reaches the high standard of a luxury item.... Something of varying quality cannot be luxurious!

It may just be the colloquialism, but that's the way that I read n0wak's statements and it's also the way in which I use the term. Food, shelter, clothing, and other things you need for everyday life are considered essentials. Things which you are expected to buy with a "living wage," to use the governmental term. If you bought a PS3 with welfare money on the other hand, there are quite a few people who would be angry with you. It's not an essential. As such, it is a luxury item, something which goes beyond the minimum. It may not actually be luxurious, but that is what the term means when used in this context.

Haagen-Dazs and Ferraris are luxury items because they also go beyond the minimum. People need transportation. Public transportation or other basic services are required. Ferraris are not. They are a luxury. Food is necessary for life. High-class, expensive ice cream is not. Haagen-Dazs is a luxury. Games are a luxury item in terms of modes of entertainment. It can be argued (and I would agree, although I wouldn't have to) that some form of entertainment is necessary for people. Mental stimulation to keep the brain working at somewhere nearer to its potential. If you need to be entertained, board games (well, some board games...) are cheap. Libraries are plentiful. Games are expensive and go beyond what is required to entertain oneself. They are certainly a luxury item, even if you wish to claim that entertainment is necessary.

[thorn]

As others have said, 'Luxury' has multiple meanings, depending on context. If you don't believe me, check out Wiktionary:

luxury (plural luxuries)

1. very wealthy and comfortable surroundings.

2. something desirable but expensive.

3. something very pleasant but not really needed in life.

#1 & #2 are what Tanukitsune is referring to; #3 is the definition that n0wak and others were using.

[Scrobbs]

In other news, since I was waiting for MW2 on PC (and now cancelled it), I've just bought CoD4 for PC, so they've still got some of my brass; I had it on 360 ages ago, mainly because my friend hassled me as he has a 360. Need my head examining.

[miffy495]

As others have said, 'Luxury' has multiple meanings, depending on context. If you don't believe me, check out Wiktionary:

luxury (plural luxuries)

1. very wealthy and comfortable surroundings.

2. something desirable but expensive.

3. something very pleasant but not really needed in life.

#1 & #2 are what Tanukitsune is referring to; #3 is the definition that n0wak and others were using.

Exactly. I don't think English is your first language, Tanukitsune, (your first is Spanish, I assume?) so I was merely trying to point out that the usage in this case wasn't literally "luxurious." I totally get how it could be confusing though. Was only trying to explain what n0wak was saying. And now I back out of this piracy conversation, as I've frustrated myself arguing the issue far too many times already...

[Tanukitsune]

Actually I was born in Canada, but I left when I was little...

It's just when I hear people saying "games are luxury items", I hear "I'm willing to pay 200$ for a game"....