Forza Motorsport 3

[toblix]

So I don't really like driving games, although I really liked Test Drive Unlimited for its awesomeness. Before that I guess the Lotus games and Super Cars were my favorite games. And Stunts and Stunt Car Racer. And Vette! I managed to found a hidden section of the game in Vette one time.

So, Forza 3... for some reason I've finally seen some magical number of awesome screen shots of impeccable sports cars drifting around corners, and I'm starting to want this game. Does anyone here have Forza experience? I seem to remember one of you --was it Wrestle? -- mentioning playing Forza 2. How does this game compare to, say, Super Cars?

[Jayel]

I don't have much experience with Forza games (I tried the demo for Forza 2 and it failed to grab me)...

I'm really looking forward to NFS Shift. I don't like NFS games, maybe except for Porsche Unleashed, but Shift is developed by the same people that made GTR games. It should be interesting.

Sorry for shifting topic.

[toblix]

I don't know much about the NFS games, except for NFS 2, which I played at one point (I think), but I head you can customize both the interior and the exterior of the car in NFS shift. It's like The Sims, with all the decorating! Speaking of which, that MySims game, MySims: Agents, looked pretty cool. I hear it's coming out this year.

[miffy495]

I played a lot of Forza 2, and Forza 1 came free with my xbox when I bought it. Actually, it was the first time I played online with any of the Thumbs (had a series of races one afternoon with Wrestlevania). Really great games, and I'm not a person who plays many racing games. Far from an enthusiast, at any rate. I still found Forza to have just the right level of accessibility and depth for a player of my capabilities. I think Forza 2 is pretty cheap right now. If you find yourself with a copy, I'd be happy to have a few races with you. If you hold out for 3, I'll probably be getting that as well, so let's call this an official challenge. May even have to make it a weekly race.

[toblix]

A race... TO THE DEATH!

[jneeriem]

I've never been a fan of the Forza series. I was also never sold on the first Xbox and was a Gran Turismo gamer on the Playstation One and Two. When I got the 360 because I'm now sold on the idiocy of Sony, (sidebar) I tried but never got into the Forza games. I just didn't find them as good as Gran Turismo.

[Wrestlevania]

I am a committed petrol head, but I haven't enjoyed many racing games over the years. That said, I bought my original Xbox partly for Forza, but the original felt a little thin and distant (despite the polish).

Forza 2, however, I've been playing in prolonged bursts since it was released. I was actually in the grip of my most successful career run to date until, well, you know...

If you're even mildly curious about getting a modern, in-depth racer but find the likes of Gran Tourismo suffocting while Need For Speed much too shallow, Forza 2 is pitched perfectly I think.

Arcade mode covers everything you'd expect - standardized car classes with no modification and simple modes like Time Trial - but the brilliant physics and sublime controls make it much more than I was hoping for.

Career mode, on the other hand, gives you *everything* you could want; class-based championships, regional championships, manufacturer cups, rivalry face-offs - just to name a few. You also get to bolt as many extras to your cars as much or as little as you like; Career mode is so carefully and interestingly paced that the game unlocks decent cars suitable for other cups. So you don't even need to get into fiddling with mods if you don't want to.

In short: Forza 2's one of my most favourite games, well, ever. ~shrugs~

[Jayel]

I was under the impression that Forza2's driving model is more realistic than Gran Turismo's. I can't stand GT series personally. Lack of damage modeling in a racer sim is unforgivable in my opinion.

I was really interested in iRacing as well (by Papyrus guys) but i heard that the car damage isn't that good. It's surprising because their Nascar games did it so well.

[jneeriem]

I think that while adding damage modeling sorta puts Forza 2 ahead of Gran Turismo 4, the actual physics of Gran Turismo and the actual car models are better. I was also always a fan of how Gran Turismo works the career system and how you can purchase cars versus the Forza system. I dunno. I could be totally wrong.

[toblix]

I think that while adding damage modeling sorta puts Forza 2 ahead of Gran Turismo 4, the actual physics of Gran Turismo and the actual car models are better. I was also always a fan of how Gran Turismo works the career system and how you can purchase cars versus the Forza system. I dunno. I could be totally wrong.

Yeah.

[Wrestlevania]

I dunno. I could be totally wrong.

It's down to what you want in a racing game--nice to have the choice to be honest. For me, it's nothing more than Forza kept me coming back, whereas Gran Tourismo just got impossibly difficult too soon. (You can buy cars in Forza too, btw!)

I guess it's a question of pacing in that regard; I enjoy challenging games, but I also like utterly destroying the competition as often as I might just barely scrape a victory (or loose because of a stupid mistake). Forza's structure and pacing suits my needs really, really well in that way.

Regarding the technicalities, Forza 2 doesn't look as good as it might simply because it was an early platform title. I forget the specifics (and can't be bothered to go trawling for them either), but I believe the game approximately runs at around 720i but with clever effects to make it look crisper. There's also no proper anti-aliasing in the second game, which means the cars and scenery can look jagged at times--even on a 1080 HD screen.

Forza 3, however, is meant to be a "proper" 1080p game, with full scene anti-aliasing and much more advanced Shader effects this time around. And it's meant to run at a solid 60fps, which the second game wasn't quite up to at times.

Basically, I think Forza 2 was one of those many games that get yanked from being an advanced existing platform title into being a decent - although technically inefficient - early next-gen title. Doesn't mean it's not fantastic fun to play though, and none of those "console train-spotter" details bother me in the slightest anyway.

[Cigol]

I was under the impression that Forza2's driving model is more realistic than Gran Turismo's. I can't stand GT series personally. Lack of damage modelling in a racer sim is unforgivable in my opinion.

It's like comparing PC titles such as GTR, rFactor, iRacing, Live for Speed, Netkar Pro (etc), they all have their good and bad points. It would be silly to declare one better or more realistic than the other as they all offer something different.

As for damage modelling being necessary, I have to disagree. Generally speaking race craft has very little to do with damage. Aerodynamics is something to consider I suppose, but other than that I can't see how damage - particularly the kind console games peddle - is important. It isn't. Watching a real life crash is exciting, being in it not so much... to that end it's the racing that's important.

The one thing that iRacing, and to a lesser extent Richard Burns Rally has shown me is that a lack of in-depth track modelling in a racer sim is what is actually unforgivable. Anyone whose driven the previous two titles there knows just how much the laser scanning of the former and the attention to detail in the latter transforms and improves the experience. Driving in other games after that just doesn't feel anywhere near as involved.

I was really interested in iRacing as well (by Papyrus guys) but i heard that the car damage isn't that good. It's surprising because their Nascar games did it so well.

They only model irreparable suspension damage, so it is surprising, and disappointing - but it's a work in progress and they have the track record so we all know its coming eventually. If you're truly interested in iRacing then honestly; don't let that put you off. There's so many other things you could focus on, like cost

[Jayel]

As for damage modelling being necessary, I have to disagree. Generally speaking race craft has very little to do with damage. Aerodynamics is something to consider I suppose, but other than that I can't see how damage - particularly the kind console games peddle - is important. It isn't. Watching a real life crash is exciting, being in it not so much... to that end it's the racing that's important.

I keep telling myself that whenever I play Gran Turismo games, but i just can't let go of the feeling that I'm having a neutered experience. I expect to blow out my tires and spin out of control, then have to make a pit stop when I trade paint at 100mph - not swivel for 10 sec and carry on as if nothing happened.

edit: i probably should've chosen a better term than "trade paint" because it implies a really minor rub

Edited July 29, 2009 by Jayel

[Wrestlevania]

The one thing that iRacing, and to a lesser extent Richard Burns Rally has shown me is that a lack of in-depth track modelling in a racer sim is what is actually unforgivable. Anyone whose driven the previous two titles there knows just how much the laser scanning of the former and the attention to detail in the latter transforms and improves the experience. Driving in other games after that just doesn't feel anywhere near as involved.

While I've not played either of those two titles, track layout and variation is probably the only gripe I could level begrudgingly at Forza 2.

Whereas the original Xbox game had some glorious mountain road tracks and other real world point-to-point routes, Forza 2 is doggedly track-based. That's not to say there isn't variety in the tracks - quite the opposite (Turn 10's rendition of Laguna Seca is exquisite and a delight to tear around) - but it's the only slight disappointment I had with the sequel.

Thankfully, it looks like road racing will make a triumphant return in Forza 3!

[Cigol]

I'm actually talking about the surface of the track. iRacing laser scan all their real world tracks and the difference is immense. Where there are permanent bumps and adulations in real life they are accurately represented in iRacing - and it has a tangible impact on how you drive.

When you think of a lot of other games, and Gran Turismo is guilty of this in the first degree, the course is extremely smooth and offers no resistance - but real tracks aren't like that at all. It's probably not worth laser scanning for a console game, but Richard Burns Rally fudged it by being creative - don't see why GT/FORZA can't do the same... and from what I've read of Forza 3 I think* they will be going with the latter approach.

*we've been bombarded with so much Forza news its easy to get confused

I keep telling myself that whenever I play Gran Turismo games, but i just can't let go of the feeling that I'm having a neutered experience. I expect to blow out my tires and spin out of control, then have to make a pit stop when I trade paint at 100mph - not swivel for 10 sec and carry on as if nothing happened.

All Gran Turismo needs to do is work on the collision physics to be more unforgiving. As it stands you can trade blows but it doesn't have a meaningful impact on either cars travel - that's the problem. Not a lack of graphical damage effects. Like I said; iRacing doesn't model anything other than suspension damage (which you couldn't repair anyhow) and whilst the superficial deformation is nice it doesn't make the experience anymore realistic. What does is that people are avoiding trading blows because it will ruin their race if they don't...

[Wrestlevania]

Forza 2 does have surface modelling though, like the treacherous - not to mention utterly foul - tiled start-finish section of the Sebring International circuit:

Cars bounce, skip and slide all over that if you're going too fast or try to corner at speed. At 180mph+, it's terrifying, which is why I think I like Forza more than Gran Tourismo. Crashing feels dangerous, whereas in Gran Tourismo it seemed merely an inconvenience--moreover the only way to get a fast time on certain tracks with certain cars was actually use GT's elastic crash barriers to punt your car around a difficult corner at speed.

Other tracks, too, are littered with lumps, crests, sudden off-camber changes and so forth. Whilst they might not scan the physical surface of every course, I think Turn 10 do make an excellent job of keeping things varied and interesting over the course of a single lap.

[Jayel]

All Gran Turismo needs to do is work on the collision physics to be more unforgiving. As it stands you can trade blows but it doesn't have a meaningful impact on either cars travel - that's the problem. Not a lack of graphical damage effects. Like I said; iRacing doesn't model anything other than suspension damage (which you couldn't repair anyhow) and whilst the superficial deformation is nice it doesn't make the experience anymore realistic. What does is that people are avoiding trading blows because it will ruin their race if they don't...

I agree with you on superficial damage: it's completely meaningless to me unless they're going to simulate aerodynamics as well. But as for GT, I'd argue that without any sort of damage modeling, even with the most realistic collision physics, the worst that could happen is lost traction - which isn't really frightening and not enough deterrent to turn the game into a bumper-car racing.

Is the above image screenshot to Forza 3? If so, then holy crap!

[toblix]

Is the above image screenshot to Forza 3? If so, then holy crap!

No, but this is:

It's not photorealistic, but it's close.

[jneeriem]

Ok so full disclosure, since I don't own a PS3 and am not close to buying one, I'll probably get Forza 3. And yes I know you can buy cars in Forza 2. But what I found with Gran Turismo was that if you were willing to put in the time to get good, to pass the license tests and to "learn" (gasp) the game never gets easier but it gets better. I'm kinda big into how in Gran Turismo 4 once I had the money I could amass my "ultimate garage" because with exceptions the Sony people collected alot of car models. I just don't see that same "realistic-car-collector" appeal in Forza. But maybe Forza 3 will come out with the unforgiving physics I love about GT4 and a gazillion cars and some challenge and amazing visuals and I'll never have a thought about buying a PS3 just to get GT5 (when/if it ever comes out)

Or maybe I'll pine away in eternity for the Gran Turismo swan-song to be.

[Loiosh]

I think that while adding damage modeling sorta puts Forza 2 ahead of Gran Turismo 4, the actual physics of Gran Turismo and the actual car models are better. I was also always a fan of how Gran Turismo works the career system and how you can purchase cars versus the Forza system. I dunno. I could be totally wrong.

Just wanted to come in and correct this. Both games are modeled quite well. With the latest version of GT both Forza 2 (and 3) and GT include independent 4-wheel modeling and suspension. Both handle vertical G-loads; though, as far as I'm aware only Forza handles horizontal g-load of tires and suspension.

Also, Forza is the only one where the AI battles with the same model as the player model. GT (up to 4, I don't know about 5) used a simplified model for the AI vehicle physics.

For the OP: Forza is a high-fidelity racing simulator. It is nothing like NFS, Project Gotham, Midtown or Burnout. If you enjoy realism Forza is a good console offering.

[Loiosh]

I'm actually talking about the surface of the track. iRacing laser scan all their real world tracks and the difference is immense. Where there are permanent bumps and adulations in real life they are accurately represented in iRacing - and it has a tangible impact on how you drive.

iRacing is the child of Papyrus Design Group (a dead racing simulator company that is heavily respected in the computer world). It is one of the more accurate racing sims out there, though Forza 2, 3 and rFactor are better in pure terms of accuracy. Forza and rFactor model clutching, transmissions and weather all of which iRacing does not have at this time. The accuracy of iRacing's tire/suspension system is up in the air at the moment as they are not discussing their custom tire simulation system except to say they developed it on the own and had complete access to all racing spec tires.

[jneeriem]

Just wanted to come in and correct this. Both games are modeled quite well. With the latest version of GT both Forza 2 (and 3) and GT include independent 4-wheel modeling and suspension. Both handle vertical G-loads; though, as far as I'm aware only Forza handles horizontal g-load of tires and suspension.

Also, Forza is the only one where the AI battles with the same model as the player model. GT (up to 4, I don't know about 5) used a simplified model for the AI vehicle physics.

For the OP: Forza is a high-fidelity racing simulator. It is nothing like NFS, Project Gotham, Midtown or Burnout. If you enjoy realism Forza is a good console offering.

Honestly, thanks for clearing it up. I didn't realize the AI part, though I do know that in GT the AI logic tends to just follow a given race line and pretty much doesn't do much else. Never did like that.

[miffy495]

GT5 Prologue on PS3 was my first ever experience with a GT game. For a few weeks there, I absolutely loved it. It's a really good game. Unfortunately, the "Prologue" aspect reared it's ugly head and I got sick of always driving the same tracks. Forza 2, while still honestly having a very limited number of races, just kept feeling fresh longer. I will say that the garage in GT5P impressed me, but I'm not a car guy at all and can't tell the difference between most of them anyway. While the variety was appreciated, it didn't do much for me. The physics I didn't understand well enough to notice a difference. I think I allowed myself to graze walls a bit more often in GT, but I was always pretty cautious as Forza 1 was my first experience with a sim-ish racing game and I learned to drive in fear of any minor hits.

Anyway, the reason I chipped in on this thread was to try to provide a bit of perspective for the not-car-fan who still wants to have a good racing game every year and a half or so, which I get the feeling toblix may be. Forza is the most accessible "realistic" game I've ever had the pleasure of starting up. If you want to enjoy the game and not feel like you're in over your head all the time, go for it. GT is good (I know you have a PS3 too) but you should really cut your sim teeth on something else before you dive in.

[jneeriem]

This is really where you should start. Will run on DOS. Was amazing. Had in-cockpit view, which took another 21 years to implement in other games.

61HHBCNc63E

[toblix]

Anyway, the reason I chipped in on this thread was to try to provide a bit of perspective for the not-car-fan who still wants to have a good racing game every year and a half or so, which I get the feeling toblix may be. Forza is the most accessible "realistic" game I've ever had the pleasure of starting up. If you want to enjoy the game and not feel like you're in over your head all the time, go for it.

You know me too well. I'm after something that's immediately fun, but not too arcadey, I think. I don't finger myself to power curve charts, but I don't want a jump button either. Also, I love games that look totally fucking sweet, which it seems Forza will also be doing.

edit: Also, did I mention I will be playing using this?