miffy495 Posted January 16, 2008 Seems I'm at the sweet spot for a 24 inch screen as well. Nice chart, n0wak, very handy! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vimes Posted January 16, 2008 Vimes; that's not right. 720p shows 720 horizontal lines progressively (30 fps), 1080i shows 1080 horizontal lines interlaces (60 fps). Mmmm... then how come my soon-to-be-mine TV can do 720p, 1080i, can go 1366 x 768 native but cannot use 1080p mode ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lobotomy42 Posted January 16, 2008 Am I the only one here who runs their HD gaming system through a computer monitor? I've got a 3-ish year old Dell 24 inch widescreen (native 1920x1200) monitor which I've been using for my 360 any time I'm playing something single player. The size would be a bit of an issue if it weren't a computer monitor and thus something you're usually really close to anyway. My bed is about 4 feet from the monitor, I swivel it so I can see the image, and I'm off to enjoy EDF, Crackdown, or whatever. Rock Band I just set the drums or guitar up a bit beside my bed and it's perfect. Aside from a little bit of letterboxing (16x9 things on a 16x10 screen. Whatever...) I have no worries whatsoever. When I'm playing multi, I'll cart the box out to the main room and hook it up to the larger SD screen. I love this setup. If I was suddenly struck with the urge to play Assassin's Creed in the middle of a post, I'd simply turn on the 360, cycle through 3 other inputs (monitor has 5) and play. Nothing like having your work desk also be your primary game center for all things geeky. I did this for awhile. But this past weekend I acquired an old 50" projection screen from a co-worker for $200, and I haven't looked back! Granted, my monitor went all the way up to 1080p, and this only does 480p/1080i, and is 4:3...but I honestly don't mind. It's huge! This goes a long way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nachimir Posted January 16, 2008 Mmmm... then how come my soon-to-be-mine TV can do 720p, 1080i, can go 1366 x 768 native but cannot use 1080p mode ? Because 1080i and 1080p are different ways pf processing the image, which don't necessarily follow from screen resolution. 1080i is not just another way of showing 720p; they're different things. 720p: Progressive scan, 1280 * 720 pixels. 1080i: Interlaced scan, 1920 * 1080 pixels. The reason a given TV can do 1080i but not 1080p is to do with the way it processes images. I think interlaced scan is kind of like the pointlessly huge number of megapixels manufacturers are shoving into digital cameras. *i will get to a given resolution before *p or less expensively, but it confuses people and is ultimately a dick measuring contest with added "first!". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thrik Posted January 16, 2008 Thrik: I see what you mean, but I meant an in picture detail... 1080i is just another way of showing 1080p, right? In terms of bandwidth per milisecond or whatever, 1080p is double 1080i, but there's no extra picture detail? Indeed. There should be no perceptible difference between the two in motion considering how fine the lines are packed together in 1080. Of course, on a technical level 1080p uses exactly twice as much data as 1080p so that's why a lot of slightly less expensive televisions don't support it. Obviously each frame has half its line missing so detail is lost, but with 60 of the fuckers flying past every second nobody's going to able to see the difference as each alternate frame fills in the detail. As the Kuro, yeah that's been on my radar for ages but you're looking at £2,500 for just 42 inches of it. The reason I mentioned the Viera is because it's apparently the next best thing, but enters the market of 42 inches at more like £900. I haven't seen one though and couldn't find one in the local shops. Might have to go on a lengthier excursion and scope out some other shops at some point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThunderPeel2001 Posted January 16, 2008 I'm sure I saw a 42" Kuro for £1480 online. The 50" is £3000 I think? Mmmm... then how come my soon-to-be-mine TV can do 720p, 1080i, can go 1366 x 768 native but cannot use 1080p mode ? I just explained this to my housemate last night On old fashioned CRT TVs, the image was interlaced. This means that all the odd numbered horizontal lines were drawn, the screen was wiped and then all the even numbered horizontal lines were drawn. It created a slight flicker, but at 50 or 60 times a second (depending if you live in a PAL or NTSC area) it certainly wasn't too bad. 1080i uses this same interlaced technology. Its 1,080 horizontal lines are drawn in two passes of 540 lines. With 1080p it draws all 1,080 lines in one go (making the image more "film like" and less flickery). To to view 1080i, all you need is a TV with a resolution of 540 lines or more. Those 540 lines are then upscaled by your TV to 720 (or 768, I guess) for each pass. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marek Posted January 16, 2008 If you have a choice between 1080i and 720p (as on the Xbox 360), go for 720p. (Unless, apparently, if you are ThunderPeel and 720p is giving you weird problems.) Setting it to 1080i doesn't really gain you anything, most likely this mode is just included because it has a big number in it. If I'm not mistaken, Samsung still has the best price/value ratio going on for HD screens if you don't want to spend too much, but not have something that is shitty either. I got one about a year ago and I'm pleased with it. If you're going to buy an Xbox 360, get one with a harddisk. Anyone who posts around here probably doesn't want to go for the Arcade/Core versions. You need the HD space for your XBLA games, demos, and possibly Xbox Originals games, plus who knows what is still on the way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vimes Posted January 16, 2008 OK, I got the Premium HDMI XMas Bundle with Marvel Ultimate Alliance and Forza Motorsport 2 on Amazon ... weird thing, it was cheaper than non-bundle, refurbished consoles and couldn't be matched by any eBay deal. Plus, with the current membership trial I got a next-day delivery for 4$. Sweet. Hopefully the TV will arrive tomorrow too. My very first Next-gen settings... the materialistic guy inside me is kinda moved. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThunderPeel2001 Posted January 17, 2008 Setting it to 1080i doesn't really gain you anything, most likely this mode is just included because it has a big number in it. Why is that? Do most games only run at 720p anyway? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Roderick Posted January 17, 2008 Marek, you said that Samsung offers the best bang for your Eurobuck? I saw a nice Full HD Samsung (40") for 1200 Euros. That seems like an excellent price. Do you have any research or reviews that compare this stuff, or Samsung tv's in particular? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thrik Posted January 17, 2008 Why is that? Do most games only run at 720p anyway? It's because the television has to de-interlace 1080i, which compromises the image quality in almost all cases and can cause motion problems as when something's moving really fast you have to remember that half the lines are from the previous frames. There's a pretty thorough comparison here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/720p#720p_versus_1080i A television with a great upscaler chip (this is a feature most people don't actually factor into their purchase decisions yet is one of the most important -- a lot of people actually buy dedicated upscaler boxes to sit below their TV) will produce a really nice image from 720p, as each frame is a single clean image and it doesn't have to process the hell out of it. It might do less well with 1080i as ironically the high-quality upscaling will expose interlace artefacts even more. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThunderPeel2001 Posted January 17, 2008 I'm guessing the image will be even better if your TV is natively 720 instead of 768 (like mine). Hmmm! Thanks for the link, it's interesting that displaying an image Progressively outweighs the potential benefits of more detail via Interlacing. It would be fine for a static image, the article suggests, but for anything moving you're generally better off with 720p. Now I need to figure out what's going wrong when I ask it to display 720p I'd buy a Kuro in a heart beat if I had the cash. They're quite simply supposed to be the best TV ever created... Of course they're not totally cheap, but I'd stretch if I was going to buy a new TV. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marek Posted January 17, 2008 Marek, you said that Samsung offers the best bang for your Eurobuck? I saw a nice Full HD Samsung (40") for 1200 Euros. That seems like an excellent price. Do you have any research or reviews that compare this stuff, or Samsung tv's in particular? Yes that sounds like a good price. Sadly I don't remember where I did my research back then. One thing I could say regardless though: you might want to take an extra moment to consider a 32" model. It really depends on the size of your living room, but it might sit a lot better than a larger model. When you're in the store, a lot of TVs will seem smaller than they really are because there's always an ever bigger one next to them. I have a normal sized apartment and 32" is just about right for it. A colleague of mine has a similarly sized apartment with a 45" Samsung and people are just making jokes about it all the time because now he basically has a room with a giant penis in it. (Um... so to speak.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nachimir Posted January 17, 2008 Played with a 42 inch Viera at a friend's house last weekend, they're very good. Assassin's Creed looked a treat on it. Housemate has a 37 inch Samsung, and in terms of picture quality they're both pretty boggling. Each has 2 HDMI inputs too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Roderick Posted January 17, 2008 Marek; Hahaha, that's quite true. I had actually already settled for the 37" Hitachi, so the step to 40" isn't so big. I wouldn't consider a 45" or even 50" television though. My space, though small, has a setup where the tv isn't cramped, so 40" is very doable. At the same time, should I go for a smaller model, then Full HD becomes less of a necessity and I'd be able to go for a cheaper model (prices nearing even 600 Euros). Damn, such a wealth of options! =) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brkl Posted January 17, 2008 I went for a 550€ Mirai 32". Basically the cheapest you can get at that size. It still looks pretty good, although I could certainly use better black levels. I felt that it was smarter to buy a cheap one now and a better one later (as in a couple of years later) when I actually have a HD disc (either) player. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Roderick Posted January 17, 2008 That's kind of what I'm considering now... going for a cheaper, 720p tv now instead of full-blown HD. a. They will decrease in price substantially over the coming years, while the quality will rise (stuff like black levels and processing are still a bit meh here and there) b. How much access do I have to Full HD content anyway? Only my Xbox 360 (not even HD DVD's then!) and most games are made for 720p, right? Can anyone confirm this, or am I talking out of my ass? Are there, or will there soon be, 1080p games for the 360? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vimes Posted January 17, 2008 I've got my X360 and the TV. One thing though : what's the cheapest solution to connect the noisy beast to Live Arcade via WIFI ? The official adapter is rather expansive ... is there any alternative ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thrik Posted January 18, 2008 It connects via USB so theoretically any 802.11g (been the standard for several years now) wireless adapter should work. However, it seems that few of them actually do. I'm guessing it's because the 360 doesn't have any generic drivers that can handle adapters other than the official one. However, I do recall reading that someone got a Belkin Gaming adapter working, which may have been designed to mimic the official one so the official drivers work. I can only suggest googling for this. There are consistently a number of unopened ones up for grabs at around £40 on eBay, which isn't cheap but is considerably cheaper than the £60 that some fucks like GAME charge. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marek Posted January 18, 2008 b. How much access do I have to Full HD content anyway? Only my Xbox 360 (not even HD DVD's then!) and most games are made for 720p, right? Can anyone confirm this, or am I talking out of my ass? Are there, or will there soon be, 1080p games for the 360? You can get 720p games on Xbox 360 (all games), and 720p movies through XBLM (erm not sure if that's available in The Netherlands though) or if you download them from some other places, like the iTunes Store. You can get 1080p games on Playstation 3 (though as we all know, higher resolution does not equal better graphics). You can get 1080p movies on BluRay, but nowhere downloadable as far as I know. Xbox 360 will not have 1080p games in its lifetime. We can be virtually certain of that. It may have 1080p content, but only if it gets a BluRay expansion drive. But at this point, who cares. 720p looks good, 1080p looks a bit better (for movies, anyway). The quality increase from DVD to 720p is much higher than from 720p to 1080p. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Roderick Posted January 18, 2008 Thank you, Marek Abraham Bronstring! That is information that's valuable to me. It's strange that the jump to 720p would be bigger than the difference between 720p and 1080p. If you look at the resolution scale, both seem like a doubling of the lesser value. So why is that? Perhaps the difference only becomes really visible if you are watching something on the two meters wide 80.000 Euros TV that's on display in the local Mediamarkt? My final question in this post is: the 360 is capable of upscaling its games to 1080p. Does it make everything look better, crisper, on the tv, or is the effect negligable? Because this goes all the way in making me decide to go for a 720p set, if it's the latter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n0wak Posted January 18, 2008 You can get 720p games on Xbox 360 (all games) [..] You can get 1080p games on Playstation 3 (though as we all know, higher resolution does not equal better graphics). The resolutions the games run is completely dependent on the games. http://www.playstatic.com/news/1023 Xbox 360 will not have 1080p games in its lifetime. Incorrect. If you look at the above link, you will notice that NBA Street on the 360 runs at 1080p. Natively, not upscaled. Again, it depends on the game. There are a handful of true 1080p games on the 360. Here's an old article on XBox 360 and 1080p and HDMI http://kotaku.com/gaming/xbox-360/shane-kim-talks-360-1080p-game-output-201816.php Kim said that while the console will soon support 1080p out, it will not have an HDMI out. Which, obviously, was incorrect as it now does. But yes, 1080p isn't a hardware restraint... it's purely software. If component cables can carry a 1080p signal, then the XBox can output it. Of course, running that high a resolution within a game with all sorts of graphical effects and so on is, to say the least, taxing... but it's up to the developer to decide what balance of resolution/effects to go for (something PC developers know well). Which is to say, many 720p games don't actually run at 720p... but merely upconvert to it. If you're a pixel counter the whole thing is one giant mess. If not, then who cares? If the game runs well it runs well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thrik Posted January 18, 2008 It's all about the physical size of the television. It's directly comparable to an LCD monitor for your computer. What happens when you don't use the monitor's native resolution is exactly what happens to a HD television's picture when the native size isn't used -- it's rescaled and quality is compromised, much like when you get a small image in Photoshop and make it larger. The whole 720p and 1080p thing is confusing because most people don't realise being able to see the added detail is dependent entirely upon the size of the television itself. Some people would probably buy a 26-inch television and be all happy because it can do 1080i. Think of it this way: could you tell the difference between 1024x768 and 1280x1024 if they were both somehow running natively on a Nintendo DS screen? Similarly, 720p and 1080p may look like a small difference on a medium-sized television, but on the 60-inch and above sizes that plasma monsters come in, it's a huge difference -- easily as significant as the difference between 480p and 720p. I realise this seems obvious but it's also worth reminding yourself in that in conventional computer terms, 480p is roughly equivalent to 640x480, 720p to 1024x768, and 1080p to 1920x1200. There is a much bigger burden on hardware to render 1080p over 720p (just like 1920x1200 over 1024x768). Either one of two things is going to happen: detail is removed so it can run at the same speed as 720p, or the frame rate is lowered and may have more noticeable low spikes during heavy action. Running 1080p isn't always something to strive for when you're not on a television where the differences are particularlyappreciable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toblix Posted January 19, 2008 Having all sorts of different connectors and terms and resolutions and stuff is the sort of shit the TV makers should've figured out never to do back in the fucking eighties. Even the terms they invented to try to make it easy suck. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ysbreker Posted January 19, 2008 Thank you, Marek Abraham Bronstring! That is information that's valuable to me. Oh and when you decide to go for a samsung, buy it at this store: http://www.plasma-discounter.nl/ It s the cheapest store in the Netherlands for as far as I know. I got mine from there and am as happy as a pig in mud with it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites