Gaming semantics

[Wrestlevania]

From the original thread:

First-Person Shooter = played in the first person perspective.

Third-Person Shooter = played in the third person perspective.

It's very black and white my friends. Control mechanics, game play feedback and immediacy and so forth are all very well and good; but you can't change the laws of the English language and its definitions just because something feels like something else.

Sorry, but it's clearly moved on past its original definition to now define a style of gameplay. That's language for you!

I think this is nothing more than blanket ignorance/laziness on the part of certain media people, because it's a more technical sounding term than "shooter" (or "run and gun" as Dan mentioned in the original thread). And because it's a convenient, recognised term to aid pigeon-holing by lazy journalists.

As a mainstream example, several of the 1UP Yours podcast staff are particularly guilty of this, insisting on refering to Gears of War as being an "FPS genre" game. Which is a double misnomer:

1. It's not played in the first-person perspective
2. "FPS" is not a genre - it's a format!

[elmuerte]

people are idiots, nothing new.

also, First Person Shoot is a genre. Genre is nothing more than a term that defines a subset with common features.

[DanJW]

There is a way out of this; we can come up with new meanings for the letters F and P, maybe even S as well. Then we will be able to call any "run n gun" ( ) game an FPS.

Something like, uh, Firefight Perpetuation Simulator, or Freaky Psychopath System, or Fantasia Paramount Sharon, or, you know, whatever.

Have a go!

[Nappi]

Is this the thread in which we are eventually going to have the god-awful "how do you define adventure games" discussion?

Someone calling Gears of War an FPS game has never bothered me that much, no matter how ignorant some may found that. I think most people still know the writer is just trying to link it to the shooter genre. Many readers probably don't even actively think what FPS stands when they see it used. To me, it's like: Yeah, it's wrong, but who gives a shit?

[ThunderPeel2001]

The fact that Gears is commonly referred to as a FPS is enough. Language has changed. Move along.

[eljay]

ThunderPeel you are being supremely arrogant about this, handing down decrees that language has changed. Personally I think it's stupid to call Gears an FPS, the term FPS exists to distinguish between perspectives in the shooting genre, what benefit is there to strip it of its meaning?

Just because you are lazy enough to accept a bad classification doesn't mean everyone else has to be.

[elmuerte]

GoW is a Third Person Shooter, or TPS for short. You can even write reports on it, just make sure you use the correct cover or Lumberg will bother you.

[Cigol]

Words naturally take on different meanings depending on who you're speaking to and in what context. It's like Hacker and Cracker and Script Kiddie.... which is the one that gets thrown around in the public domain? Hacker... Which is the one that should be? That's right; cunt.

So I would agree with the charge journalists are simply being lazy. Gears of War is not a first person shooter and as a PC gamer that's something which is very clear to me. Under no circumstances would I equate GOW with FPS (although on the flip side I can understand the argument).

On the other hand am I the only person who thinks that the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic games should be defined as ADVENTURE GAMES () When I've said this in the past people instantly berate me (because the term is so synonymous in the gaming world with Monkey Island types) but I find the idea that they are listed as ROLE PLAYING GAMES just as silly.

Maybe we should move to the idea of defining games on their content, and not their technical aspects. GOW is an action game for example. KOTOR is an adventure game

[elmuerte]

I usually use the term "adventurous game" rather than adventure game

[ThunderPeel2001]

ThunderPeel you are being supremely arrogant about this, handing down decrees that language has changed. Personally I think it's stupid to call Gears an FPS, the term FPS exists to distinguish between perspectives in the shooting genre, what benefit is there to strip it of its meaning?

Just because you are lazy enough to accept a bad classification doesn't mean everyone else has to be.

Don't shoot the messenger! I'm not "handing down decrees" (what nonsense), but clearly explaining that since lots of people (including mainstream gaming press, as previously mentioned) are referring to Gears as a FPS, then clearly FPS has had its definition expanded by everyday usage.

The fact that now, months later, some people are talking about it only goes to highlight how accepted this expanded usage has become.

This isn't because people are idiots, it's because language does this all the time.

For example, an "exploitation film" might not feature any actual exploitation at all, but instead, over time, the definition has expanded to include cheap, schlocky, violent films, usually made in the 70s.

"B-movie" is another term which is frequently used in a "technically incorrect way" (we don't actually have double-features anymore, so no A-movies or B-movies) but is still used to describe a cheaply made/poorly produced movie.

This is a fact and has nothing to do with me.

Here, for the first time incidentally, is my actual opinion:

Referring to Gears as a FPS is better than referring to it as a third-person shooter in all respects except technicality. Tomb Raider is a third-person shooter, but its gameplay is nothing like Gears of War. Whereas Quake and Team Fortress are FPSs and have gameplay that more closely resembles Gear of War.

In short, to explain to someone what type of gaming experience Gears of War offers, describing it as a third-person shooter might technically be correct, but describing it as a FPS more accurately describes the gameplay... which is what labels like RPG, shoot-em-up, beat-em-up etc. were invented for in the first place.

Finally, FPS and third-person shooters are genres, not formats (or was that a joke?).

[Thrik]

This all seems a bit mental to me.

The most obvious solution seems to be to describe games that play like a typical shooter, such as Team Fortress, Doom, Quake, and whatever else you like, as a 'shooter'.

You then generally prefix 'first-person' or 'third-person' depending on which it actually is.

Up until Gears of War this seems to be what the vast majority of people did, and to be honest I hadn't even noticed people were more often than not calling Gears of War an FPS. Is it really as widespread as you lot make out?

I mean, Max Payne was very much like Gears Of War in that it allowed FPS-like aiming but was a third-person game; as such, it was generally referred to as a third-person shooter because that's exactly what it was.

Games like Tomb Raider or Metal Gear Solid still have heavy use of guns, but don't allow twitch aiming like an FPS. These types of games generally aren't referred to as first- or third-person shooters, and instead something like 'action adventure' or 'stealth' is used.

I have to agree that using 'FPS' as a general classification for games like Gears of War is entirely retarded because games that have just as much of an 'FPS feel' have come out over the years and not had the same treatment.

I can't see the use of 'FPS' as a descriptor of such games lasting, if it is in popular usage at all. Indeed, when I talk to any guy in real life about such a game, we'd use a phrase like "shooting game", both knowing immediately what type of game it is.

[Nappi]

If one was to be a potential douche bag, he would note that a lot of people, and even the media, have sometimes referred to dolphins as fish.

And while dolphins also play a lot more like fish than mammals, the meaning of the word "fish" can't be expanded to include the dolphins, as dolphins quite simply lack some of the characteristics that define fish and have all the characteristics that make them mammals.

Gears of War, while being a shooter, lacks the first person part that, one would think, is quite essential in defining FPS, or first person shooters, but fits in the third person shooter category perfectly.

I wouldn't expand the category "fish" to include dolphins, even though they spend their entire life in water and all. Likewise, I wouldn't call Gears of War an FPS game, quite simply because it clearly isn't a first person shooter. It should be mentioned, however, that if someone refers to dolphins as fish, I just feel a slight superiority, and if someone refers to GoW as an FPS game, I just don't give a damn.

But I'm not that kind of person. And I'm not supposed to take part in this conversation.

[ThunderPeel2001]

If one was to be a potential douche bag, he would note that a lot of people, and even the media, have sometimes referred to dolphins as fish.

And while dolphins also play a lot more like fish than mammals, the meaning of the word "fish" can't be expanded to include the dolphins, as dolphins quite simply lack some of the characteristics that define fish and have all the characteristics that make them mammals.

That's a mistake. Plain and simple. It's not been accepted as language (unlike "b-movie"). Nor is anyone, anywhere saying they can understand why some people would want to refer to dolphins as fish. Also, we're talking about the gaming press. I'm guessing the people who make the mistake of calling dolphins fish are not people who write about marine life frequently.

[Redwall]

And referring to a non-first-person game as being so is not a mistake "plain and simple" . . . ?

[ThunderPeel2001]

And referring to a non-first-person game as being so is not a mistake "plain and simple" . . . ?

Well I guess you can argue that, but the fact that some people aren't bothered by it and can understand why its used seems to indicate that it's different (to me at least).

What is a recent third-person shooter anyway (if Tomb Raider doesn't count?).

[Thrik]

Some of these, I guess.

[brkl]

Thunderpeel, I understand your position, but you're going about it way too sure of yourself. Language does change, and often rapidly and unpredictably. So rapidly and unpredictably that in 20 years or so you might be able to argue that FPS acquired a different meaning around this time, but you cannot argue that now with much credibility because it's simply too soon to say.

EDIT: REPAIRED MUH GRAMMER

[BigJKO]

What is a recent third-person shooter anyway (if Tomb Raider doesn't count?).

Fucking Gears of War! What the hell?!

[Nappi]

That's a mistake. Plain and simple. It's not been accepted as language (unlike "b-movie"). Nor is anyone, anywhere saying they can understand why some people would want to refer to dolphins as fish. Also, we're talking about the gaming press. I'm guessing the people who make the mistake of calling dolphins fish are not people who write about marine life frequently.

I strongly believe that most people in the gaming press who called Gears of War an FPS did so by mistake, in contrast to having some kind of meeting about it or even justifying the use of term to themselves and the readers. As a semi-fan of nature documentaries, I have also heard phrases like "dolphins and other fish" coming from various animal experts. This doesn't really make them less credible, they just didn't put enough thought to what they were saying.

While, I got to say, "b-movie" is a good example of how language changes, I still think that there is one major, purely practical difference between it and "FPS". To be more specific, what they stand for.

At this point, I should probably admit that I didn't until recently know what b-movies originally stood for. That's because the term itself fit the new use so perfectly. If a movie that has lowered production values etc. is called a b-movie, it seems obvious that "B" is, in a way, used as a grade, a-movie being the one that has really worked hard and that the teacher would like to adopt, and b-movie being the one that simply isn't quite as good as the a-movie. There is no need to ask anyone what the letter B in b-movies stand for. This wouldn't be the case if they would have originally been called second, low budget film of double feature, or SLBFoDF.

By contrast, if it was somehow universally accepted that FPS could be used to describe games like Gears of War, there would be problems, because humans have an annoying habit of wanting to know what something really means. The letters clearly wouldn't stand for first person shooter anymore, and abbreviations usually aren't completely random either. This would lead to, as already mentioned by Dan, figuring out a new meaning for F and P (and possibly S). Apart from Funky Pellet Shooter, there aren't that many alternatives that would make enough sense that people could actually deduce the meaning themselves. Not that I know of, at least...

Here's an example of how this could cause problems with annoying boy and his father having a discussion:

Boy: That didn't look real! Kill Bill was much better.

Father: That's because this is a b-movie. And you shouldn't be watching Kill Bill.

Boy: I got a B from my history test.

Father: That's nice..

Boy: That orphan kid got an A.

Father: There really isn't anything wrong with b-movies.

Boy: Our teacher said he is going to adopt him.

Father: Oh..

Boy: I wish I had a mother.

Father: Well, maybe you should study harder.

Boy: What?

Father: Nothing..

Boy: What is that?

Father: This is an FPS-game.

Boy: What does FPS mean?

Father: It stands for first person shooter.

Boy: But isn't that a third person view?

Father: Yeah but.. it plays more like first person shooters.

Boy: You are not my father.

[toblix]

I always thought the 'B' in 'B-movie' stood for 'budget'.

[eljay]

Thunderpeel, I understand your position, but you're going about it way too sure of yourself. Language does change, and often rapidly and impredictably. So rapidly and impredictably that in 20 years or so you might be able to argue that FPS acquired a different meaning around this time, but you cannot argue that credibly now because it's simply too soon to say.

Exactly, this is what I meant by "handing down decrees" I wasn't implying you were making stuff up, I'm well aware of language theory, just that you were presenting these possible changes as fact which is absurd. I shot the messenger because I didn't like the delivery

Also I think you are wrong in saying that it isn't because people are idiots, stupidity or ignorance is certainly one of the causes of such changes. People hear something said, don't actually understand it and so repeat it a little wrong or use it in the wrong circumstances.

A great example is the phrase "I couldn't care less" which has morphed into "I could care less" in America. The second version doesn't make any sense looking at the words being used (yet is used in the exact same context) and clearly arose because people didn't understand what they were saying.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Exactly, this is what I meant by "handing down decrees" I wasn't implying you were making stuff up, I'm well aware of language theory, just that you were presenting these possible changes as fact which is absurd. I shot the messenger because I didn't like the delivery

At least you're admitting to shooting the messenger! (Appreciate it.)

I should probably have mentioned that I've heard Gears referred to as an FPS outside of this discussion from different people in conversation months ago (when it first came out). So it doesn't surprise me in any way that people have now spotted others doing the same. (And yes, in my opinion, the people I spoke to where well aware what FPS stood for.)

People I've spoken to + Other people hearing the same + Mainstream gaming press = Reasonable proof that language has evolved outside of one group of people

It does frustrate me when I feel that people are thinking with their hearts and not their minds. I've worked in offices where people come out with the most dire nonsense, absolute garbage, but because it's said in a certain way, people go along with it. (I'm sure we've all been in that situation?)

Considering I wasn't attacking anyone (at all), I don't think it should matter how strongly I put something across, provided it's correct... Isn't that fair?

Also I think you are wrong in saying that it isn't because people are idiots, stupidity or ignorance is certainly one of the causes of such changes. People hear something said, don't actually understand it and so repeat it a little wrong or use it in the wrong circumstances.

A great example is the phrase "I couldn't care less" which has morphed into "I could care less" in America. The second version doesn't make any sense looking at the words being used (yet is used in the exact same context) and clearly arose because people didn't understand what they were saying.

"Clearly"? Now who's making drastic judgments, eh?

[ThunderPeel2001]

Some of these, I guess.

Well I'd definitely say that Gears has more in common with Quake and Unreal than Tomb Raider, Grand Theft Auto and Max Payne! Regardless of what you decide to call Gears, I think you'd have to agree its an unusual TPS.

[Thrik]

Kind of. It's really becoming a mish-mash when you think of it like that though. To me, calling Gears of War an FPS when there's a much simpler way to categorise it (and similar games) just doesn't sit right.

What I'd personally call Gears of War is an on-rails shooter, which is comparable to an on-rails shooter such as Half-Life 2, Quake, or any other game like that. I'd put Max Payne squarely into that category too, but definitely not Tomb Raider which I'd call an action adventure game. GTA is a whole different animal and defies any particular categorisation, hence the widespread use of the term 'GTA clone'.

PS: I did mean the massive list of games below the first part of that page, and not just the few at the top.

[brkl]

on-rails shooter

That's Time Crisis, and none of the games you listed.