toblix

Minish Cap

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I don't see it. Do you mean design-wise or technically?

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I honestly don't know what you're expecting. They went for the 3D style of Wind Waker (albeit nowhere near as overwhelmingly beautiful), and probably maxed out what that little DS is capable of doing since that's what Nintendo generally does with its games.

The reason it looks like a 90s PC game is because it's running on the equivalent of a mid-90s home console's hardware. On a small screen it should look absolutely fine, which is an important factor here.

I mean if you're expecting the full-blown graphical experience, then shit, don't play the version on a handheld console with fairly weak hardware. Get the GameCube original that Four Swords, Minish Cap, and Phantom Hourglass are all based on, because no matter what they do with these handheld versions they're never going to look as good as the big daddy itself. I personally doubt any of them play as well or are as generally good, either.

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The reason it looks like a 90s PC game is because it's running on the equivalent of a mid-90s home console's hardware. On a small screen it should look absolutely fine, which is an important factor here.

Hey, I'm just saying I think that 2D graphics looks better than most 3D graphics, at least any 3D graphics the DS can produce. It's not like I am surprised at the quality of the graphics. I know that the hardware isn't that great.

I'm also saying that I think the Phantom Hourglass shots looks like crap. I know that:

  • I may not think so when I see it in motion on my little DS screen.
  • For most people, the graphics will either:
    • Be beautiful
    • Do the job

It's just that I'm more into graphics than the lot of you. I'm not saying you're not able to appreciate good graphics, or that I have better "taste" or anything. I just have a bit of hate in my heart for 90s 3D graphics, and that I weigh that more when evaulating whether some game that hasn't been released yet seems good.

I fully expect the dungeons to be every bit as ingenious as before, I just know that they'll look less interesting to me. So, as I said, I hope they use the 3D in a way that weighs up for the loss of (what I consider) eyecandy, and, as I also said, based on the trailer, it doesn't seem like that's going to be the case. But all of this is just the crazy opinions of a graphics whore.

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I'll chip in here with my preference for 2-D graphics as well. I'll take Alien Hominid]/i] over Gears of War any day. That said, when going 3D, I prefer cel-shaded over pure 3D as well, which makes me like WW more than the other Zeldas. Also means that I think that PH looks fantastic, though I personally would prefer more Minish Cap style visuals. If you're going to take the last safe haven of 2D Zelda (the portable) and cram it into 3D, at least keep it cel-shaded. That way, I'll stay happy.

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Cel shading is too intensive for something like the DS.

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Yeah, probably. Though to be honest I didn't actually notice it wasn't cell-shaded until you pointed it out; they've done a really good job of emulating the look. I'd imagine the small size helps this a lot.

Don't overlook the fact that the actual game world in Wind Waker wasn't cell-shaded though, and instead used highly stylised hand-drawn textures all over the place (even the sea). It might be the hand-drawn aspect that drew you to Wind Waker rather than the cell-shading if you love 2D art so much (although they did work together beautifully). This is also why I suspect toblix would enjoy Wind Waker a lot.

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So I can just get Wind Waker and shove it up my Wii, right?

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Yes indeed, do it, do it now!

For the record, detailed 2D graphics = delicious, and if there are no more zeldas in that vein I shall miss them. However I fully expect to enjoy PH greatly.

As a sprite graphics related sidenote, did people see those beautifully detailed sprites that capcom will be using in SFII Turbo HD Remix? I'm still holding out hope they have animations to match them.

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For the record, detailed 2D graphics = delicious, and if there are no more zeldas in that vein I shall miss them. However I fully expect to enjoy PH greatly.

My sentiments exactly!

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As a sprite graphics related sidenote, did people see those beautifully detailed sprites that capcom will be using in SFII Turbo HD Remix? I'm still holding out hope they have animations to match them.

There won't be any new animations, so it'll probably look mighty choppy when played, albeit very high res. I think they said something about some minor, minor balancing but it won't be noticable for anyone but the die-hards. Filling in the animation would probably have skyrocketed the costs and Capcom just wants some quick cash with that project.

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There won't be any new animations, so it'll probably look mighty choppy when played, albeit very high res. I think they said something about some minor, minor balancing but it won't be noticable for anyone but the die-hards. Filling in the animation would probably have skyrocketed the costs and Capcom just wants some quick cash with that project.

I had presumed this was the case, it is a shame, but understandable (especially considering how long it took them to animate SFIII). Still maybe these sprites could be the basis for adding to in future games, iteratively giving them more animations, god knows they've re-used they're older sprites plenty of times. (yeah I'm a foolish optimist)

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Everything I've heard indicates Udon will be redrawing everything, including the animations.

Capcom have said they want SSF2 Turbo HD Remix to be their next big 2D game, as evolutionary as Guilty Gear was compared to the original SF2. And this wouldn't be possible if they weren't reanimating the characters in HD, from scratch, with a significantly higher number of frames of animation.

I believe the biggest time sink in the project is having Udon generating all the art assets by hand, as Capcom have also said they've gotten the basic SSF2 Turbo mechanics working with draft high-res sprites already.

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I'd love fluid animation to go along with the beautiful art, but it's not happening. Not at the moment at least. The producer of both the HD remakes had this to say:

There are no new frames, [...] adding frames is beyond the scope of the project. It does seem like higher resolution will make it more of an issue, but I’m not sure if it will really will in practice. Maybe it will just not be that big of a deal though, we’ll see.

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In relation to the animation of the new Streetfighter, it makes a hell of a lot of difference to the gameplay if you add extra frames.

The way the game worked is that certain moves have priority over others, to add frames of animation and keep the prioritiers the same would make some of the moves look extremely stupid. Worse, changing the hit detection has a good chance of comepletely changing the balance of all the moves.

I'd love to see all the characters having every frame redrawn, and having more frames added, it just want happen unless you rehaul the entire game (something that won't happen unless Capcom release an official game that costs REAL money). I seriously disagree that only the hard core will notice as it will result in a broken game if they try and change too much. Shit, people will probably end up using T-Hawk.

What I want to see is a vastly improved online system (I'm having trouble inviting friends to play on the current XBLA Streetfighter and it is definitely the games' fault), and Capcom, or another third party, releasing a decent controller for fighting games. the current D-pad is one of the most unresponisve pieces of shit I've ever used.

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I hear the stick that Tecmo came out with for DoA 4 is decent, but have yet to try it myself.

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Shit, people will probably end up using T-Hawk.

:barf:

Could you perhaps warn me before using such language in future??!

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Here it comes.

So, I thought, Minish Cap being a "newer" game, it would be a little less hardcore and a bit more forgiving. A bit easier. And it was. The bosses were just hard enough so that I didn't die but only just. On the flying boss I died once, but the teleports made the second, successful, try easy to attempt.

So what in the fucking cunt is the deal with the final boss? Do they really expect me to try and defeat all those fucking... forms in one try, with only three red bottles? Why doesn't it at least save between forms? At least I would have expected it to save when I had to run through a dungeon between two forms. Having to do it from start again plain sucks. This was really disappointing. I guess I won't be buying Phantom Hourglass after all. Bring on the Phoenix Wright!

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They don't call them the "final boss" because you can poke them with a feather duster and they die, you know. Why on earth would the last boss in the game be easy? It's meant to be an accomplishment, an achievement, a feat! When you finally manage to defeat that sucker, your heart's pumping and you are secure in the knowledge that you've saved the kingdom and restored peace.

You don't get that kind of shit handed to you on a plate.

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You seem to have extraordinary expectations from a game, toblix. I mean, what? You just implied that defeating a boss in one or two lives is to be expected.

I don't know about you, but games have always been pretty hard. You die in them -- a lot. I don't think I can recall any game I've played in recent history where I haven't died a whole bunch of times, and the end bosses of some games such as Beyond Good and Evil and been so infuriating I was literally almost in tears.

But that's what makes it so satisfying to kill them, when after the 8th try and the prospect of going right back to the beginning looms, you get that killer blow in just in time. To give up and deem the game and its unreleased 'sequel' because you can't kill its end boss in one or two tries seems like a seriously stupid thing to do.

I can see why you seem to basically like no game. You don't seem to enjoy what makes a game a game. :fart:

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The end bosses shouldn't be too hard, because at that stage the narrative should flow along pretty quickly. The player will expect to see the end soon, and being bogged down for hours by some annoying fight isn't doing anyone any good.

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I disagree. Obviously 'hours' would be an exaggeration, but I think at least half an hour to an hour is reasonable for an exciting battle. It'd be shit and lame if it were the same thing of course, and there must be a certain degree of variety throughout the fight, but a lengthy and epic fight is a great way to end a game.

There are really good and really bad examples, though. Metal Gear Solid 3 for example has a 'boss fight' that lasts absolutely ages and has like four stages. Each stage is incredibly different though, and in fact thanks to an inspired chase scene in the middle takes place over like a mile radius in the game world.

Another good example is the Wind Waker boss, which takes a whole bunch of different forms and occurs all over the castle it's set in, finalising on the roof. Again, beautifully done and it just seems right (Like most of the game!!!!!).

A bad example would be any game that just gives you same old shit endlessly, like bosses in Final Fantasy 8. That isn't fun. I'd still get through it though just because I've come so far, and it would be very satisfying to finally crack it.

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Mmmm... MGS3's boss fight. I think I need to play that again now. Shagohod being all cocky as it is with "Ha ha! You haven't beaten me since last summer!" mockery. Best boss fight ever in a game, IMO, and that's just the cherry on top of all the other amazing boss fights that the Metal Gear series has produced.

On the other hand, lengthy boss fights can be a bit of an issue as well. I'll often get to the save right before a boss and, in anticipation of a long and arduous battle, think to myself "Shit, it's already 3 in the morning. I'll go to bed now and beat the boss sometime soon." Then I just never do. I've got savepoints right outside the boss in Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door, Resident Evil 4, Gears of War, and Dead Rising (ok, not so much a boss, but Overtime mode) just to name the 4 most recent examples. Every time I feel like going back and finishing the games now I worry that my skills have gotten rusty and I'll be slaughtered so I just don't bother. I'll add the game to my "Played-but-just-barely-unfinished" pile and move on to the next. If I'd thought I could take out the boss in about 15 minutes, that problem would never crop up.

Super Paper Mario almost got added to this list as well, but I forced myself to take an hour out the night after making that doomed save and just beat the damn thing. Metal Gear Solid 3 as well. I went back 3 months after the doomed save just because I really wondered what the final cutscene would be like. A boss fight should be a challenge, sure, but only exceptional bosses (See: Shagohod) need something of that kind of magnitude.

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Well, I never got past Beyond Good & Evil's annoying bug who I didn't care about. I tried for a couple of hours and gave up. I don't play games to be annoyed.

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