Wii not taking games Seriously

[Ginger]

So Chris Heckler took his chance to rant to lay into the Wii. His point about lack of CPU power making truly intelligent AI on the Wii difficult is an interesting one. But laying into Wii/Nintendo for not taking games seriously enough seems ludicrous. There console is the only one not trying to be more than a games machine, and for huge amounts of people it has also made the prospect of picking up a controller and playing a game a much more likely, Nintendo is a company of people who love games. What is taking games seriously, having Guns Tits and Arse 4 on your console?

As for the attack on Wii for not progressing games as an art form; I think the Wii takes forward the aspect of gaming that sets it apart as an art form, interactivity. What the hell have the 360 and PS3 done in furthering gaming as an art form had people talk about it in their forums, Woo Yay ¬¬

What artistically creative merits as machines do the 360 and PS3 have that were lacking in their predecessors? (I don’t think more polygons and more detailed textures would have made the experience of shadow of the Colossus anymore immense)

He strikes me as being one of those anti bandwagon people, the type who hates things because they are popular, and for having such an immature outlook on life is my Dick of the Week

[n0wak]

Hecker said the Wii is nothing more than two GameCubes stuck together with duct tape, and that the console isn't powerful enough to provide the next-gen experience he has been waiting for.

Well, no shit. It's like buying a Kia and then ranting that it wasn't the racecar experience you were expecting. It was never meant to be a "next gen" experience but a new, more accessible experience.

As you said, he seems to be blowing a lot of steam just to be contrarian. And I looked up Chris Hecker in Wikipedia... the entire entry has just been deleted. Google cache to the rescue.

Sounds to me like he doesn't like to have fun. If so, then he shouldn't worry about the Wii and focus on getting his games from Manifesto Games.

[vimes]

It really takes some huge balls to bullshit that Nintendo (or any console manufacturer in this matter) is to blame for not pushing Video game as an art form:

• video games are not suddenly going to turn into art because of console manufacturers creating more powerful machines.
  
• one doesn't make art easier by providing cutting edge technologies.
  
• if someone is responsible for game not being artful, it's the developers...
  
• the Wii isn't powerful enough for AI? That makes all gamecube games being shit in this domain, right ? I don't think so.
  
• if art is going to happen in the video game, it won't be done by having designer or manufacturers talking about it, it will just happen.
  
• interactive digital art is already existing and it's doing fine without the 'help' of the video game industry
  

[Nachimir]

All good points Vimes.

However, his point about AI is an interesting one, given what David Braben has been saying the PS3 will enable in terms of AI for The Outsider (i.e. "Our AI is going to be awesome because of having so much processing power to throw at it!").

On one hand, speculation about what a more powerful console can do for AI is dangerously close to being a marketing bullet point, but on the other, if the PS3 and 360 really can scale a new height in terms of convincing behaviour, then indeed the Wii might get left behind.

I think in being confrontational Chris Heckler probably picked exactly the wrong way to express that.

[manny_c44]

In the most technical sense, power is very much a limiting factor in the visual aspect of creating games. You can have environments and models that are too difficult for the wii to render regardless if you are going for grimey realistic or a representational style. Ideally you'd have no constraints, so whatever is being made can be displayed. (Just imagine making a 3d game on the DS....the grinding teeth, the poly-shaving!)

The same can be said for CPU, or input devices for that matter. Generally better hardware and more options are a good thing.

So "one doesn't make art easier by providing cutting edge technologies" is kind of untrue.

I don't know much about AI, but I would assume some dedicated AI developer could put more power to use.

[Nachimir]

I think that might have been meant in the sense of art as concepts and deep expression, rather than art asset production and rendering. Craft is a useful word for the latter, though sadly often derided, so we're stuck with art, which is sadly not derided enough

[n0wak]

In the most technical sense, power is very much a limiting factor in the visual aspect of creating games. You can have environments and models that are too difficult for the wii to render regardless if you are going for grimey realistic or a representational style. Ideally you'd have no constraints, so whatever is being made can be displayed. (Just imagine making a 3d game on the DS....the grinding teeth, the poly-shaving!)

As Nachimir said, art assets do not necessarily make art.

I mean, if you approach it from an artist's point of view then the various consoles and engines are nothing but tools at their disposal. No tool is better than any other, just better at a specific job. So it depends on what it is that you want to achieve. If you think your high art gaming concept needs to push ten billion polygons a second, then obviously the Wii is not what you'd use. That doesn't mean that the Wii sucks ass. It just does a different job.

It's akin to complaining that "painting sucks ass" because you can get a better representation of the real through photography. Which, obviously, isn't true.

[brkl]

Lazy coders just don't want to make smarter algorithms.

[Kolzig]

But on other Wii news, have you guys seen the brand new Wii Super Paper Mario and Mario Galaxy videos from gametrailers?

Holy shit my jaw dropped when I saw especially the Galaxy video.

[brkl]

Yes. Paper Mario looks really great (I haven't played the earlier games) and Galaxy looks like the first really pretty Wii game.

[toblix]

But on other Wii news, have you guys seen the brand new Wii Super Paper Mario and Mario Galaxy videos from gametrailers?

Holy shit my jaw dropped when I saw especially the Galaxy video.

I think their internet connection dropped too. Is the movie posted anywhere else?

[vimes]

I'm watching it and I wonder : why isn't Nintendo providing other 1st party or 3rd party studios with the same 3D engine? Then surely, people would stop bithcing about Wii games being graphically atrocious.

[Kenty]

and Galaxy looks like the first really pretty Wii game.

Have you played Excite Truck yet? Everyone i've shown it to has been surprised at how nice it looks (and it plays great too )

[toblix]

I finally saw it and it looks pretty. I hope the gameplay isn't as chaotic as it seems in the trailer, though. Jumping between hundreds of different rocks with all sorts of stuff. Won't there be, you know... levels?

[n0wak]

http://kotaku.com/gaming/wii/spore-developer-chris-hecker-apologizes-for-calling-the-wii-a-piece-of-shit-242822.php

[Roderick]

The trailers for Super Paper Mario are awesome and I want to play it RIGHT NOW. No more battling stages; but just classic Mario style action! How awesome is that! And that bold and sometimes even plain ugly use of retro Mario graphics! I just have to experience it!

[Ginger]

http://kotaku.com/gaming/wii/spore-developer-chris-hecker-apologizes-for-calling-the-wii-a-piece-of-shit-242822.php

Me thinks he got a major spanking.

[Ginger]

Have you played Excite Truck yet? Everyone i've shown it to has been surprised at how nice it looks (and it plays great too )

I could never play a game with such a rubbish (read gay but I'm trying to be PC these days) name, it sounds far too much like Excite Cock.

[brkl]

Have you played Excite Truck yet? Everyone i've shown it to has been surprised at how nice it looks (and it plays great too )

Haven't played any Wii game, but I've been following reviews and such and been consistently surprised by how bad the games look. You'd think they could at least make games that look as good as GC games.

[Thrik]

Speaking of the Wii, I just finally got a fucking Wii after months of failures. :tup:

Weekend o' Zelda, more like.

[toblix]

[Excite Truck? More] like Excite Cock[!]

[...][? More like]Weekend o' Zelda[!]

Oh, so now it's okay?

[Ginger]

I get ginger immunity, but Thrik is being out of order

[Thrik]

Be silent Ginger, you inadequate sledgehammer.

I've casually used that phrase for years toblix for it is a common British phrase. It wasn't the controversial rhyming variant.

[vimes]

There was a comment on otaku that makes sense :

I think the whole "games are not art" argument is so obviously flawed I have trouble believing that anyone would take it seriously. Firstly, games are an art form, in the same vein that everything is. Even an Uwe Boll movie is art. Terrible, terrible art.

[...]

It's up to us and developers to decide how deep that art will run, and what directions it will go in, visuals, theme, characters, action.

[n0wak]

Still, in terms of the rhetoric Nintendo puts out, I do think they do something of a disservice to games by constantly disavowing their status as art. Which isn't to say that they probably do more in the long run by making more games that are worthier of the "art" moniker than Sony or Microsoft.

This might be true to a certain degree, but I think the Nintendo stance of "have fun, bring people together" is far less cynical than the stance that some other people in the industry have. Kind of like Capcom's Inafune

http://kotaku.com/gaming/keiji-inafune/gdc07-capcoms-inafune-slams-clover-producer-242796.php

Perhaps I might get into trouble if I say this in front of people from the mass media. Games are not a work of art. It's actually a product. If we think of it as a work of art, then... when we think about Picasso and Van Gogh's paintings, the end result is beauty, so it doesn't matter if you sell it or not. However for games, it's a product. It is a commodity. The producer has to think about that.