BUY games? what are you, stupid?

[Intrepid Homoludens]

So, as a staunch liberal, I am quite naturally pro-theft.

:ponycrap:

No you're not. You played Thief badly.

[Farbror]

I think the thing is that you're not stealing a physical object. How about an example.

John have never stolen anything before. Well, except for the pack of bubblegum he stole when he was 9 because everyone else he knew experimented with stealing. John is a nice guy with wife and kids. He pays his taxes, and even donates some money to charity once in a while.

His morals forbid him to steal cars, computers, food, tobacco, telephones, christmas trees, dogs and babies. However, after a hard day's work he logs on to the internet where he's able to get the latest games and software for free. I mean, it's just data on his computer. 0101010110101011010101. How can that be considered stealing? He's not actually taking the data from anywhere. He's just copying it.

Uhm... Anyway... That's what I wanted to say. That's why some people's morals doesn't say "uh-oh" when they warez things. If the story is incoherent, bad or something like that, it's because I'm stupid and it's getting late... Bye!

Yes, but it is the information you are stealing! Those zeros and ones, you are not allowed to use them, beacuse you haven't bought them! True, nobody loses their ones and zeros if you copy them, but my definition of theft also includes "Getting something, without paying, you shouldn't have gotten if the one distributing them say that you must pay him/her to get it".

Which is exactly what you do.

Edit: Okay, that didn't sound logical, let me change it. "Getting a commodity without paying, that the disttributor of the commdity wants you to pay for." Sounds better now, I hope.

[Lindset]

Yes, but it is the information you are stealing! Those zeros and ones, you are not allowed to use them, beacuse you haven't bought them! True, nobody loses their ones and zeros if you copy them, but my definition of theft also includes "Getting something, without paying, you shouldn't have gotten if the one distributing them say that you must pay him/her to get it".

Which is exactly what you do.

Edit: Okay, that didn't sound logical, let me change it. "Getting a commodity without paying, that the disttributor of the commdity wants you to pay for." Sounds better now, I hope.

I didn't say downloading warez is The Right Thing To Do™. I just pointed out what I belive to be the reason why people's morals aren't bothered when they download warez.

[Farbror]

Well, my point was that I do consider downloading games as stealing, and why I therefor believe that John in fact was stealing.

[Lindset]

Well, my point was that I do consider downloading games as stealing, and why I therefor believe that John in fact was stealing.

Ahh, you thought "How can that be considered stealing? He's not actually taking the data from anywhere. He's just copying it." was my opinion. I was saying it from his point of view, not mine. I guess I just worded it badly.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

It's stealing, no doubt about it. It doesn't matter if it's a bunch of apples or a bunch of numbers, it's private property and its rights belong to someone else. John is a moron, and if he thinks he can do that based on sheer ignorance then he's the biggest fat-ass moron in the world.

[Chris]

John is a moron, and if he thinks he can do that based on sheer ignorance then he's the biggest fat-ass moron in the world.

Times infinity plus 1!!!!!!!!!!

[b0b]

Let's see.

We have the vast unwashed uninformed hordes that will blindly purchase crap because of a licence tie-in, or some cleavage on the gamebox, or some such other reason. There's nothing we can do about this. Obviously, no-one savvy enough to be on this forum is going to fit into this category. These people are doomed, and we can't reach them. It's a shame.

Then we have the savvy forum dwellers. We don't buy crap, because we will hear from any number of sources if a game is a dog. Anyone here go out and buy Driv3r? No..

Trouble is, if all the savvy gamers rush out and buy a game because it's genuinely good (like BG&E for example) then that's still VASTLY fewer people than will be spending their money on Tomb Raider 7. Hence BG&E dies, and hence Tomb Raider 8.

There's nothing we can do about this. We aren't powerful enough, either politically or financially to change this. And by continuing to pay overinflated prices we prop up the publishers that are perpetuating this situation.

Umm, also, I'm getting tired of people saying things like "oh, you download gams, you have no morals, do you beat old ladies over the head for their pension money too?". I download games because I want to play them, because I can (yes, whoever said people get stuff for free because they can might have had a point) and because I hate publishers more than I hate people who throw rocks at kittens. The whole moral thing is amusing. Piracy is stealing, absolutely definitely. It's criminal and bad. But it's not THAT bad. I don't think you can equate it to embezzling from an employer, or mugging someone for their wallet. Most normal human beings have a sliding scale of morals, from phoning in sick when you're not that ill, to murder and rape. Where (honestly) do you think downloading a video game without paying for it fits on that scale? mm?

Well, that ruins the whole point! "I don't think the game is worth paying for, therefore I won't buy it, and since I won't buy it I might as well download it and play it anyway!" The whole point with not buying the game is that you shouldn't get to play it, it's how capitalism works! Why not just accept it? And as I've said before, all my arguments are about moral, IF you don't consider yourself a person with moral, then I can't convince you. And I Hate people without moral.

OK - game is not worth buying (Max Payne 2 - 40 quid for 5 hours gameplay? when you can't even select a higher difficulty level initially, FORCING you to replay?) but IS worth downloading. For Free. I'll download it, and enjoy it, as opposed to paying too much for it, and being thoroughly pissed off. How many times do I have to repeat : I want to play and enjoy games. EVERYTHING else, including the law of the land, is a secondary concern.

I have morals, Mr Farbror, it's just that they are loose enough to allow me to break the law in a number of interesting and enjoyable ways, downloading video games being probably the least of my sins. I am curious as to why you seem to rate game piracy as such a vile crime?

People downloading good games doesn't kill off good games. The Horde buying shit games, publishers hyping shit games, and refusing to take chances on original IP kills off good games. There's nothing we can do about this. So why not grab everything you can, and play, and enjoy? Life is too short.

Although of course, I am clearly going to hell for my sins.

[Chris]

Fine, but how do you expect good developers to survive? By your system, the ratio stupid people buying stupid games to savvy people buying good games is even higher. Tomb Raider 8 still fails of course, and nobody has a fucking clue that anybody enjoyed Beyond Good and Evil.

[b0b]

the ratio stupid people buying stupid games to savvy people buying good games is even higher

I'm not entirely clear what you mean - but basically :

I don't expect good developers to survive.

The current model of game financing and distribution is horrible. I can't see it leading anywhere other than p41n. Small devs are subsumed, and forced into sequel-slavery. Game budgets get bigger and bigger, publishers become monolithic and all other game consoles will be crushed under the heel of Sony, until the only entertainment options available to us are PlayStation, and EA games.

And probably Grand Theft Auto too.. but EA will end up buying them too more than likely.

God.. it's depressing...

Like pop, the games industry will eat itself. Probably.

Although I'm serious about Sony being the only console hardware manufacturer, it's only a matter of time before Microsoft and Nintendo give up, and go the software-only route that SEGA have already been forced into.

[Chris]

I don't know, pop is still going strong...

[Jake]

Being honest with myself, I really don't give a crap if someone downloads and plays a game that they would absolutely never have bought otherwise. If you can seriously honestly do that... whatever. Lying to yourself to rationalize ("I wouldn't have paid for Doom 3 anyway") is not allowed, that's not what I'm talking about. However, if you honestly want to download something you would have never considered paying money for just to see what on earth people were talking about when they mentioned it... do it! However, if you find you've become attached to said pirated game, you'd better go buy it.

This attitude has worked pretty reliably for me and audio CD's. Over the years I've thrown out or stopped playing quite a few MP3's I downloaded, after realizing I didn't like them or give a shit about them, but I've also purchased about 3x more CD's in the past five years than I used to (not entirely because of piracy, but largely due to it).

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Right. It's absolutely pathetic how these people rationalize their immorality:

"Publisher X rips everyone off so I will download this game from them to show them how I feel."

"Developer Y makes crappy games so I will download their game to show them how I feel."

"Hey, everyone else is doing it, and besides, I'll probably buy the game anyway 'cause I heard it rocks." [and then keeps the pirated d/l and never buys the game anyway]

Morality must always begin at home. You may never change the world, but you can at least change how you feel about yourself.

[MrHoatzin]

Jake, Trep, gimme a break. If you are bothered by enjoying something you didn't pay for, perhaps you should buy it and clean your conscience ex post facto.

But don't push the theft is bad school of philosophy on other people. For example, it doesn't appeal to me because -- first of all what exactly does "bad" mean? There is no unversal here; "bad" is as vague as it gets. My actions don't hurt anyone I care for so I don't care about my actions. No lost sleep there; what I do is not "bad". The Big Picture is insignificant. I have decided that, short of just picking up and moving to Swaziland, I cannot affect my own life in any significant way shape or form. I have free will, but only so far as choosing where to put the Tetris pieces -- I don't choose the pieces themselves. The pieces themselves are parts of the big picture and, like I said, it is of no concern to me; it is nothing that I can affect. It just happens. Much like downloading a game.

Just for the record, I don't think I have pirated a single game in the past three years. I can never be sure, though... I think somebody burned me a copy of Morrowind.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

How would you feel if you had spent 3-4 years (and $5 million, backed up by Ubisoft) making Kingzstud's Awesome Topless Space Marine Adventure, and just before its release date in 2 weeks you find out a hord of people in Singapore, Spain, Argentina, and the U.S. have been sharing and playing it?

[Jake]

I think I explained myself badly. On the whole I am a pirating bastard. I own have tons of software and tons of MP3s that I did not pay for. That said, the ones that I really get a lot out of, I generally go and spend money on when I can afford it. They, in my mind, deserved it. That's a pretty ridiculous half-assed view of things yes, but why not? Seems that's a far better way to go about it than the people who claim they will do that someday, but are just deluding themselves.

[MrHoatzin]

How would you feel if you had spent 3-4 years (and $5 million, backed up by Ubisoft) making Kingzstud's Awesome Topless Space Marine Adventure, and just before its release date in 2 weeks you find out a hord of people in Singapore, Spain, Argentina, and the U.S. have been sharing and playing it?

You're talking about the big picture, the big picture doesn't concern me.

On the other hand, I do care about myself -- seeing how I am myself -- and the prospect of a "horde of people" stealing my royalties may cause me to scream out, bloody murder.

But I am not Carmack and I don't much care for him, so fuck 'im and his Carstud's Topless Awesome Space Marine Adventure.

And there is always going to be people like you and Jake and others who will buy the game and some royalties will come in. Of course, I was in addition paid for my work so I doubt I will be loosing much sleep to screaming out, bloody murder.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

You're talking about the big picture, the big picture doesn't concern me.

And that is your affliction, and the affliction of innumerable selfish brats like you all over the world. It's that attitude which perpetuates the atrocities you yourself keep whining about. You don't give a shit, therefore you have no right to complain when shit happens to you because someone else out there - in fact, a huge number of others out there - don't give a shit about you.

[b0b]

How would you feel if you had spent 3-4 years (and $5 million, backed up by Ubisoft) making Kingzstud's Awesome Topless Space Marine Adventure, and just before its release date in 2 weeks you find out a hord of people in Singapore, Spain, Argentina, and the U.S. have been sharing and playing it?

I'd be overjoyed that my game kicked enough ass to get gamers all over the world playing and enjoying it?

Oh no.. sorry.. I'd be outraged that these amoral theiving scumbuckets had DARED to get my game without paying, because instead of going into the industry because I loved playing games, and wanted to create great games that as many people as possible would enjoy, I want CASH and FAME and POWER and don't really give a shit about whether people play my game and have fun.

Clearly only those people rich enough to afford my game should be able to play it as.. as... that's the RIGHT and MORAL thing to happen!

[Simon]

I'd be overjoyed that my game kicked enough ass to get gamers all over the world playing and enjoying it?

Oh no.. sorry.. I'd be outraged that these amoral theiving scumbuckets had DARED to get my game without paying, because instead of going into the industry because I loved playing games, and wanted to create great games that as many people as possible would enjoy, I want CASH and FAME and POWER and don't really give a shit about whether people play my game and have fun.

Whilst people going into the industry because they love games is great, even those people still want to make money out of it. It's their job, it's not their hobby. None of them, faced with a crushing sales disaster, will think "Oh, we lost thousands of potential customers to piracy, nevermind, I love my job!". Because they'll probably not be able to hold onto that job or the best creative aspects of it if they don't shift units. I'm sure it's especially frustrating if your game didn't sell too well but kicks ass, meaning there's probably a fair amount of people playing illegal copies and downloads of it. A genuine love of gaming or an artistic mindset doesn't mean you don't want to be successful.

You can't seriously rationalise theft as a reasonable way of helping games as an industry or an artform just because you're enjoying a game you wouldn't otherwise have played, either. I think theft can only hurt the industry.

[MrHoatzin]

Beyond Good and Evil didn't explode because people went out there and downloaded three million copies. Nobody is going to blame the developer for piracy.

[manny_c44]

Maybe developers will move away from publishers and try more self-publishing methods like Valve with Steam. That way they make 3 times as much money from each copy sold, balancing out ballooning piracy.

...but I guess people will think "if I'm downloading the game already I might as well click over to suprnova and get it for free".

[JBRAA]

Oh noos. I never download. I pay. I pay.

MUHHAHA.

PFFFFFFFFF

LOL

[Alex]

Beyond Good and Evil didn't explode because people went out there and downloaded three million copies. Nobody is going to blame the developer for piracy.

I confess that i did download BG&E, but after completing it (and having loved it absolutely) i felt so guilty about the poor sales that it was getting that i went out and bought it and am now playing it again.

Mind you, I think that's a first.

[Chris]

You're talking about the big picture, the big picture doesn't concern me.

On the other hand, I do care about myself

For someone as self-righteous as you, declarations like this don't really help your case when you're railing against others for their opinions and actions.