Rob Zacny

Episode 247: Korsun Pocket

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Rob and Bruce revisit SSG's classic Korsun Pocket in this first episode of 3MA's Winter of Wargaming. Rob tells us how the game holds up to someone seeing it for the first time and Bruce explains what made Korsun Pocket unique and important at its release in 2003.

 

Check out the attached file (sourced from the musty corners of the internet) and read Bruce's original review of the game in Computer Gaming World. The game was also originally part of the now resurrected Tom vs Bruce:

 

Tom vs Bruce #8: Korsun Pocket

 

Listen to episode 247 here.

Bruce Geryk Review - Korsun Pocket.pdf

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Bruce, you got into the proverbial minefield when discussing the revision of World War 2 Eastern Front hisotry. Since I heard you're looking forward to read more on the Eastern Front I can't help recommending this book here

 

http://www.amazon.com/Defense-Moscow-1941-Northern-Flank/dp/1781590702/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=&qid=

 

Yes, one of the authors of the above is Jack Radey's   :). He's a very funny man. And his Korsun board wargame is THE best covering that episode. I know from very good sources that Ian Trout played that one quite a few times  :)

 

 I personally don't see him being unfair to the Germans... he's giving very fair treatment to both sides (in contrast with 'classical' accounts such as the one by Earl Ziemke, for instance). If you've read the two first books by Glantz on Stalingrad, you'll see as well a fair treatment being given. German blunders are well-documented, along with Soviet blunders  :) Another difference with Ziemke's account (or derivations) is that rather than resorting to the post-war German generals blame game (it was all the fault of the Austrian corporal, if we had been allowed to do our jobs, etc.), here we see that the blame for German's failures wasn't such a clear-cut deal. German commanders also fell into self-delusion and wishful thinking (both are very human qualities, by the way).

 

Another one I can't help by recommend - and kind of complements the above - is the (first) book by David Stahel on Operation Typhoon

 

http://www.amazon.com/Operation-Typhoon-Hitlers-Moscow-October/dp/1107035120/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1389854864&sr=1-1

 

Stahel discusses Typhoon from a mainly German perspective, going to the bottom of German archives, and his work gives an unprecedented insight into the minds of German generals and soldiers, as well as the parlous logistics of the German Army. And his narrative doesn't really disagree with Radey's at all.

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Interesting discussion.  I've been privately fuming for a while about what Rob describe as "Panzer Porn," and the Nazi fetishism that seems to plague wargaming.  One example that I know moderately well is Memoir '44.  The game system itself is not in any way biased towards the Germans, but scenario design and selection seemed to lean a fair bit towards situations that favored the Germans.  I felt the Mediterranean Expansion, covering the battles in North Africa, to be particularly odd in this regard.  The Germans, obviously, lost the North African campaign, but you wouldn't know that from the scenarios presented with the set.  The majority of them are stunning German victores, and a number of them so lopsidedly favor the Germans that they're not all that fun unless you're switching sides even map and comparing your German score. 

 

It's not always like this, of course.  The first Campaign Book had a big Barbarossa Campaign that was actually pretty hard for the Germans to win.  But you do see a whole lot of scenarios on the East Front featuring the big German victories, and not all that many about the big Russian victories, even though the Memoir '44 system is very well suited to simulating grinding battles of attrition that are won by numbers.

 

I don't mind lopsided scenarios all that much when they accurately reflect the facts on the ground.  Omaha Beach was a bloodbath, and the Omaha Beach scenario included in the original set is one of the most beautifully playable lopsided scenarios around.  I love playing it as Americans, though, because victory always seems just out of grasp.  What bugs me is when German losses are ignored consistently.  All Barbarossa and no winter counter-attack gets my goat.

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Excellent episode, especially with the Winter Wargaming idea coming to fruition - I hope the wargaming fun carries on well into the year until the first rays of spring start to melt the frost.

 

I'm such a wargamer who come at the hobby from a computer based history, and very little boardgame experience - I found SSG's titles to be very intense, but visually overbearing - gaudy and positively cryptic with all the iconography crammed into the pixellated screen.

 

DkJYdxt.jpg

 

I had a rough time assimilating the combat resolution tables - and divining the precise calculations behind it all, probably because I was approaching the titles in a "feel your way" methodology.

 

I remember playing the Battles in Normandy game, on the Omaha Beach limited scenario and just struggling over and over again to get any purchase on the mechanics.  I enjoyed what I played of the SSG titles, but never truly soaked up the atmosphere.

 

A similar range of games that present boardgame play through a more conservative "lens" are the Schwerpunkt games.

http://schwerpunkt.wargamer.com/

 

They give you an operational experience, with plenty of phased options and boardgame resolution tables, but they were easier on the eye, and one of the big pluses was that you were ranked/graded against the historical outcome wrapped in these approximations of historical scenarios. So I could measure how well my approach on the Crimean peninsula was compared with Von Manstein's efforts. It sort of adds an extra level of appreciation to the outcomes - and the grading continues turn by turn, so the whole progression can be monitored.

 

Here's the first turn of the Crimean AAR I did in 2011, showing the Russo-German War (RGW) game from Scwherpunkt.

http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=2598

 

Schwerpunkt is currently refining its engine to take in the whole of World War II in their new title called simply World War II Europe (WWIIE) - and Ron Dockal the dev, showed a few sneak peaks at the new game and let me host them on my blog.

 

http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=83493

 

Anyway, thanks again for the wargaming episode, I truly hope we have many more, I could listen to Bruce and Rob (and Troy when he's available) talk wargames till the cows come home, and spring settles in over the Battlefield. :)

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I love this episode.  It's way above my pay grade as an erstwhile wargamer, but it's really awesome listening to smart nerds talking passionately about a hobby I used to follow.

 

    -Tom

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Well I'm knee deep in the tutorials again, getting more out of it, taking my time to understand the mechanics - I blame this (mis)adventure into the past on Rob and Bruce's intoxicating wargame natterings. My biggest question is just how long will this Winter of Wargaming last, and what other titles are we going to re-visit?

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I went from Unity of Command to this game last year and I really enjoyed it. I posted a new player guide at QT3. This should be everything you need to go from zero experience with the game to understanding what you need to do on the first few turns of the giant full campaign map.

 

1. Download the patch from Matrix if you haven't already.

2. Play the guided tutorial. It's in a PDF. It will teach you pretty much everything about the game. (The individual parts, but not necessarily how to put them all together.)
3a. Read the manual to pick up anything you missed.
3b. At the same time, play the small meeting engagement scenario, Wiking Whiteout. There are only a handful of units and objectives. Try it a couple times to get used to the interface and mechanics on your own. (You'll start to understand how to put the individual parts together.)
4. Play the 2nd Front scenario on the east side of the pocket. I chose Russians because they can make a lot of progress. (See below for the high-level strategy on a big map like this.)
5. Play the 1st Front scenario on the west side of the pocket. I chose Germans because the Russians don't make as much progress, and it's easier to defend.
6. Play other small scenarios or dive into the 48 turn campaign like I did.

Turn 1 might seem a little daunting with all the units. Consider this high-level strategy:

The scenario designer provides hints about where to go. When you begin, press the U key to remove units and the N key to display map names. You want to take the cities that have your flag on them. The cities with the enemy flag will usually give them alert points, which means they'll get additional reinforcements. Ignore them for now.

Now that you have a general overview of where not to go, press the I key to display town icons. Right click and highlight your flag to see the victory point schedule for each town. This will give a hint about what is possible to achieve. If you get a lot of VPs by taking a town on turn 2, then there must be some way to make it there by then. You won't necessarily make it, but it's a good idea to try. On the other hand, if there is a town nearby that gives VPs until turn 30, that's a hint that you probably don't need to worry about it yet.

You have more details about where to go, and now you have to figure out which units to attack to break through and get there. Turn units back on if you haven't already, and turn on the combat advisor with the O key. Look for green numbers, which indicate overruns. (Or at least look for high odds like 9-1 and 10-1.) Click on the enemy unit and the combat advisor will tell you the units you need to achieve the overrun. This is the fiddlly part of the game. Sometimes you have to scoot things around quite a bit to get the odds that are displayed. Usually it requires artillery, which you might have to move from another part of the front. And sometimes it exposes your units to additional danger, or breaks your division. To be really precise, you have to move one unit, turn the combat advisor off and on to refresh it, and make sure the odds are still the same. If they aren't, you moved that unit to the wrong place.

Like I said, it's very fiddly but at least it gives you some idea about what is vulnerable at the start of a turn. As you play, you'll develop your own approach and naturally learn about some of the tactical lessons in the game. Remember the AI will punish mistakes, but you should be able to rack up a lot of VPs against it. So there's no rush.

 

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Thanks for the tips Tim, I completed the tutorials and gave the Wiking scenario a quick go, oh my word, I got a pasting. I am very concious you can't split troops up that much without them being decimated by advancing SS troops. No sneaking round their flanks into their rear, without a lot of support. The AI seems to entrench a lot, even armour and mobile infantry - I noticed.

 

Will give that one scenario a lot of loving and hopefully will come away with a lot of lessons learned.

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http://www.amazon.com/Operation-Typhoon-Hitlers-Moscow-October/dp/1107035120/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1389854864&sr=1-1

 

Stahel discusses Typhoon from a mainly German perspective, going to the bottom of German archives, and his work gives an unprecedented insight into the minds of German generals and soldiers, as well as the parlous logistics of the German Army. And his narrative doesn't really disagree with Radey's at all.

 

I love Stahel's books (he also has a great book on Barbarossa to the end of the  Smolensk campaign, basically, and the Kiev campaign in '41). Quite refreshing when compared to all the Wermacht general "Lost Cause" books that dominated the narrative in the decades following WW2. He uses the contemporary German records to put the lie to their own myths.

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Guys, I'd like to recommend that one episode during this winter of wargaming be dedicated to the development history of the holy grail of PC wargaming, WW2 tactical-level games.  I'm talking about games like the very early Avalon Hill PC game, TAC, and then running through some of the landmark SSI titles like the Steel Panthers series, the Close Combat series, the Combat Mission games, and ending with today's games.  For PC wargaming community labored for a very long time trying to make ASL for computers, and in the end they never really did so, but ended up creating PC-appropriate games in their own right.

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Bruce, you got into the proverbial minefield when discussing the revision of World War 2 Eastern Front hisotry. Since I heard you're looking forward to read more on the Eastern Front I can't help recommending this book here

 

http://www.amazon.com/Defense-Moscow-1941-Northern-Flank/dp/1781590702/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=&qid=

 

Yes, one of the authors of the above is Jack Radey's   :). He's a very funny man. And his Korsun board wargame is THE best covering that episode. I know from very good sources that Ian Trout played that one quite a few times  :)

 

 I personally don't see him being unfair to the Germans... he's giving very fair treatment to both sides (in contrast with 'classical' accounts such as the one by Earl Ziemke, for instance). If you've read the two first books by Glantz on Stalingrad, you'll see as well a fair treatment being given. German blunders are well-documented, along with Soviet blunders  :) Another difference with Ziemke's account (or derivations) is that rather than resorting to the post-war German generals blame game (it was all the fault of the Austrian corporal, if we had been allowed to do our jobs, etc.), here we see that the blame for German's failures wasn't such a clear-cut deal. German commanders also fell into self-delusion and wishful thinking (both are very human qualities, by the way).

 

Another one I can't help by recommend - and kind of complements the above - is the (first) book by David Stahel on Operation Typhoon

 

http://www.amazon.com/Operation-Typhoon-Hitlers-Moscow-October/dp/1107035120/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1389854864&sr=1-1

 

Stahel discusses Typhoon from a mainly German perspective, going to the bottom of German archives, and his work gives an unprecedented insight into the minds of German generals and soldiers, as well as the parlous logistics of the German Army. And his narrative doesn't really disagree with Radey's at all.

 

Haha, sweet! I came in here just to look for book recommendations on the eastern front! 

 

Every time I listen to a 3MA about historical wargames, I always want to learn more about whatever period they're talking about. I'm listening to the audiobook of Caesar's commentaries right now because of their conversation about the Rome 2 expansion last week.

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Has anyone checked out the newer Kharkov and Across the Dnepr Second Edition releases from SSG? It claims to be a successor to the Decisive Battles series and looks like it came out in 2008.

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Across the Dnepr had some very serious balance issues when it came out, as I recall.  I never got around to giving it a second look after release.

 

I'm glad people enjoyed that episode - I was kind of nervous about spending a whole hour on a game from 2003 that I was sure most listeners hadn't played.  But I think it's a landmark wargame for all the reasons I mentioned on the podcast.

 

I got about halfway through Stahel's book and got distracted, so I'll have to go back and finish it.

 

We could do a whole show about Combat Mission by itself.

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I'm glad people enjoyed that episode - I was kind of nervous about spending a whole hour on a game from 2003 that I was sure most listeners hadn't played.  But I think it's a landmark wargame for all the reasons I mentioned on the podcast.

 

    I can't speak for anyone else, but for me design analysis and strategic discussions are timeless. I enjoy the "what's new?" episodes too, but I'd also be perfectly content if 3MA went a year without touching anything that came out after 2005.

 

    Speaking as someone in the game industry, one of the biggest problems we've always had is historical myopia. I suppose it's because we were riding the exponential curve of software/hardware improvement for so long, but so much of our past is lost and barely remembered. A lot of metaphorical babies went out with the bathwater.

 

    I'm really glad someone is going back to some of these older games and assessing them without nostalgia. Some things (user interface design, as you noted) have just gotten better, partly with practice and partly with supporting libraries. Some things (AI, notably, and scenario design) arguably haven't much, and some things have regressed.

 

    It's hard to go play all these things; in some cases it's hard to even find them, or determine they existed at all.  For example, somewhere I've got a copy of Bunten's 1991 game "Command HQ", a multiplayer play-by-modem RTS that has all sorts of interesting ideas in it, (remember when people said it was innovative that in Civ V, units turn into ships when they hit the coast? CHQ did that in 1991...) and I've never heard anyone else even discuss it.

 

We could do a whole show about Combat Mission by itself.

 

    And I could happily listen to it. Do, by all means! Do an episode on ASL as well!

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This episode has ignited the SSG flame of enthusiasm under me, and I have been seriously hammering away at Korsun Pocket. I've never been able to click with SSG's games, no matter how many times I've tried - but this time, I'm determined to root out the love for the game, and its very specific boardgame mechanics.

I've been running the Wiking Whitewash scenario, as the soviets, over and over again (as recommended by Tim above), trying to cement how to play effectively, and I've been getting beasted. Just when I think I've got it, I land in a situation where the AI (even on the newbie Computer- setting) hammers home with the SS Leibstandarte and SS Wiking division.

wis9PYA.jpg

I've sort of gleaned that Cities are Victory Point locations, but are not the be all and end all of the win. They are to be taken and protected, but are not the sole objective on the map. You need to destroy units as well. Cities afford you a small boost in VP's and Alert Points (funding your re-inforcements) but even holding all 4 key cities on the map defensively, will only net you a draw if the Panzers roll over you in the process.

So I try to be offensively defensive, and wallop, I get chopped up like fried liver.

I realise the key to slaughter is the Overrun, stacking the odds so that you can hit again and again - but I never seem to have enough units to organise a relentless barrage of Overruns, however the Axis forces handle this under the AI's command very easily.

I get the supply system, I get the terrain modifiers, artillery seems to be very passive - in that you have to place it, and then use it in the combat calculations where you can (but not in Overruns).

I guess my issue is that I usually "feel" my way through these sort of Operational games, and with such stringent boardgame mechanics, you can't really use the "feel" method. You have to know all the calculations behind it. I'm struggling to connect my head to the mechanics and be able to mount any sort of successful offensive.

So any advice, from the SSG guru's that might be listening in would be most appreciated!
 

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I'm glad people enjoyed that episode - I was kind of nervous about spending a whole hour on a game from 2003 that I was sure most listeners hadn't played.  But I think it's a landmark wargame for all the reasons I mentioned on the podcast.

 

Its really special to have knowledgeable folks talk about older wargaming titles and bring them back to life - theres so few quality conversations out there, to be had on PC wargaming, its what makes TMA so invaluable.

 

We could do a whole show about Combat Mission by itself.

 

Perhaps its time to revisit some of the major PC wargaming titles - if TMA can schedule it in, under the Winter of Wargaming banner? In depth analysis of these landmark games, along with where similar ones are headed in the future would be very welcome indeed.

 

I'd like to see a knock about with Dave 'Arjuna' O'Conner from Panther Games about their Command Ops series, or Ron Dockal and his Scwerpunkt stuff, or even Vic Reijkersz and his Decisive Campaigns series. You don't even have to get the developer in, just delve deep into the design, mechanics and overall play of any wargame and I'm sure you'll have a captive audience.

 

I know most episodes of TMA have me reaching for the games discussed and it truly is fuel for my appetite for the hobby.

 

Now, then how do you become proficient at this SSG stuff? :)

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Sorry spelk, your confusion may be my fault. I didn't mean you should play that scenario until you mastered it. Just once or twice to practice putting it all together from the tutorial and manual.

I have no idea if that scenario is balanced. Just dive into the eastern side scenario using the tips in that guide and the sequence of events I suggested in my post. I turned fog of war off for that one to get used to it.

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Ah ok Tim, I thought it was a good scenario to craft my understanding, but it seems to be very harsh on the soviets at least. I just wanted to make sure I could assemble an attack and a decent defense before moving on to more complex, larger scenarios. However, eeking a win as Soviets seems to be beyond my skillset as yet. I assumed I was doing something wrong.

 

I'll try the eastern side scenario as you suggest.

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I really enjoyed this episode! It was great getting three history lessons: the battle, the game, the genre. I'm not a war gamer, and I probably will never be (unless Advance Wars counts), but it's one of those genres that I am sort of interested in from afar.

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I'm not a war gamer, and I probably will never be (unless Advance Wars counts), but it's one of those genres that I am sort of interested in from afar.

 

No, but Unity of Command (PC) and Battle of the Bulge (iOS) count. Try them.

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I keep thinking I should try Korsun Pocket, having played the hell out of UoC, but then I look at those screenshots, and *gulp*. I'll stick to my bobble heads, thank you very much.

 

I just follow Tim James around from forum to forum to second his recommendations for Unity of Command, so agreed Dr. Frog, that you should give it a try. I was in almost the exact same Advance Wars bucket, and it clicked for me right away.

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Across the Dnepr had some very serious balance issues when it came out, as I recall.  I never got around to giving it a second look after release.

 

I'm glad people enjoyed that episode - I was kind of nervous about spending a whole hour on a game from 2003 that I was sure most listeners hadn't played.  But I think it's a landmark wargame for all the reasons I mentioned on the podcast.

 

I got about halfway through Stahel's book and got distracted, so I'll have to go back and finish it.

 

We could do a whole show about Combat Mission by itself.

 

I agree with everything Hexgrid wrote (although I'm not a game designer), and also just want to add that when I first started listening to 3MA my experience with strategy games was pretty much limited to some Sid Meier and Firaxis games, some RTS games from the 90s, and some Euro board games. So for me one of the pleasures of the show is how much it has broadened my horizons for what strategy games have to offer. Andean Abyss, for example, is definitely a game I picked up because it was mentioned on the podcast, and that game has resulted in some of my favorite board game experiences of all time. So in a way, I think the best 3MA episodes are the ones that cover less well known games.

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