Virtue's Last Reward

[Sno]

I didn't see any threads for this one already, and i think it probably deserves one. I just finished this, all the way to the final ending, and i'm curious if anybody else here has played through it.

It's kind of hard to talk about it without getting into big spoilers, but on the whole I think it's a better "game" than the first. I didn't think the puzzle rooms were as interesting, but i think it's a better story with some good additions that make it much easier to keep track of the branches. 999 is kind of required reading though, a lot of the wilder elements would probably feel completely out of nowhere without it, and the big revelations would probably ring hollow. I think VLR is excellent though, one of the best things on the 3DS and probably one of the best things on the Vita.

That all said, I had also run into the really awful save bug on the 3DS version and lost a lot of progress, but i once i started over and took the measure of avoiding making saves during the puzzle rooms, i didn't run into any further trouble. Fair warning, i suppose.

Also, some big sequel hooks to be seen at the end, and there's word that another game is in development. I'm definitely interested, VLR went to some pretty ridiculous, entertaining places.

[Roderick]

I've been playing VLR this week for the [N]Gamer review and much like 999, the big surprises and delights take a while to show up. At first I was lukewarm towards this, but as I uncover more of the story and mechanics I'm loving it. I knew that would happen.

I did startle when I read about corrupted save games. Fortunately I made it a point not stop halfway through a puzzle room, but I certainly hadn't encountered the warning online. I just got lucky. Hopefully it's patched soon.

Since I haven't finished it I can't say much yet about my verdict, but suffice it to say that it's already a very interesting title and it deserves love.

[Sno]

As i reflect on it more, one of the things that really stands out to me is the sheer amount of voice over they recorded for this game, and how good all of it was. Quite an ace localization effort.

You know, and I really think it's a pretty entertaining genre story. I felt that 999 kind of collapsed in on itself right at the end, but i think VLR mostly holds together under the weight of its insanity. However, I think it also has a slower and less dramatic start than the first game. If somebody came in blind having not played 999, i could see them being bored to tears upon taking the first few hours at face value with no notion of what's to come. Even so, I definitely enjoyed the story in VLR more.

Both of these games are definitely big bait and switch narratives, you think you're getting a game of death horror story and you end up somewhere completely else. 999, to its credit, sells the bait in a more convincing fashion, making the switch more surprising. VLR dives into the "else" with much more earnestness though, and by the time VLR arrived at its conclusion, it seemed like it was grasping wildly at every sci-fi trope it could think of. I had a lot of fun watching it weave more and more ideas into the story while managing to never quite fall apart.

[Roderick]

23 hours in and I am still not even close to finishing. This game is super long!

I am rather bothered about the continuous, sex-crazed remarks Sigma makes to every lady in the game. It's pretty clear from the writing they're supposed to be funny, but it's just really awkward. The way I see it, this is the product of Japanese writer/director Uchikoshi not realizing how it would come across.

[Sno]

23 hours in and I am still not even close to finishing. This game is super long!

I had a little over forty hours on the clock when i was done. (Not counting the 18 i lost to save corruption.)

The flow chart lies! There are hidden branches!

I am rather bothered about the continuous, sex-crazed remarks Sigma makes to every lady in the game. It's pretty clear from the writing they're supposed to be funny, but it's just really awkward. The way I see it, this is the product of Japanese writer/director Uchikoshi not realizing how it would come across.

Sexism in japanese games is a weird thing. I think there's stuff in Metal Gear, for example, that is so completely worse, but Metal Gear consistently gets a free pass because everybody loves Kojima as a wacky story-telling personality.

I mean, and none of it compares to how women are objectified in a lot of anime.

[Roderick]

Yeah. I'm gonna call it out in the review though. Might not amount to a whole lot, but I want to get a message out that it's noticed and not cool.

Forgive me for not reading your spoilers yet, Sno. I should be properly in this discussion in a few days

[Sno]

Yeah, of course, i'm using spoiler tags for a reason.

Edit: On the topic of sexism in japanese games, i had a vague memory of a hilarious and casually sexist thing i had read a while ago, and a search pulled up this. Then i stumbled onto this as well.

[K-bohls!]

I heard Patrick Klepek talking about 999 on the bombcast this week and am intrigued by it. I am not really one to play very text heavy games unless it has a style to it I know I will dig. Hotel Dusk did this perfectly for me and was one of my favorite games on the DS, I am bummed that the sequel never made it to the States. I am mostly curious as to how anime is the anime art style of 999, it's dumb but that is the only thing putting me off (and lack of time).

[Sno]

999 has very much an anime aesthetic, but maybe not in the blander sense you're probably thinking of. (I mean, Hotel Dusk is also very much drawn in an anime style, but it's not "anime".) Still, if that's the deal breaker for you, that's a shame. VLR shares a similar style, but renders its characters as 3D models.

[Doorselfin]

I played this all the way through, and while I thoroughly enjoyed it I think I vastly preferred 999. It's perhaps because this time I was expecting the BIG REVEAL, which ended up being perhaps a bit too large in scope and open-ended for me to really get a sense of satisfaction at the end.

I also didn't really like the polygonal characters this time around, but that's just nitpicking.

[K-bohls!]

999 has very much an anime aesthetic, but maybe not in the blander sense you're probably thinking of.

Hmm, I guess it's not terrible, I mean it looks like it has it's scantly clad girl and goth dude with loads of buckles/pockets but I have definitely seen worse, something like The World Ends with You was way to much for me. I might see if I can pick it up over winter break and find the time for it.

[Roderick]

At 38 hours I finally finished VLR! Lemme hit you up with some spoiler tags.

At first, I was a little bummed out with the flowchart, which was of course before I knew it played such an integral part in the game and was capable of expanding (I would've liked to see a lot more secrets and expansions there, though, for the first 20 hours it's just too easy to see where every path goes). I always dislike it when games have a tendency to reveal too much of their inner structure, especially storywise. It takes away the magic. Having a flowchart is like having a too-convenient map: instead of exploring you just start to tick off locations/branches.

Anyway, that turned out pretty swell. I enjoyed the whole thing, but this was nowhere near as gripping, interesting or carefully structured as 999. In my opinion, VLR jumps the shark in some pretty hilarious ways. Like you said, Sno, near the end it's just loading itself up with so much stuff, and also so much bullshit. I actually did think it overreached. I sort of kind of understand what's happening, but I just can't feel it, experientially, because it's so overblown with all the spirit-jumping, the alternate timelines, the gross mis-applications of quantum theory, hotdamn.

Then there are just plain old annoyances: even with a solid 5 hours of post-climax exposition (!), they don't manage to resolve everything. We know why the third Nonary Game was played, but we still don't know what was the point or conclusion. Shipping the actual resolution off to a third game is just sloppy, and I was pretty disappointed. The game goes out of its way(yyyyyy) to explain every little detail about small sidestories, but the big mysteries (who is Phi? Who is Brother? Who designed Radical-6? What happened in the Nevada test site?) remain untouched.

Then there are plotholes that might still be resolved, but are glaring today. If the third Nonary Game and all the jumping around are designed as a closed loop of history to ensure Sigma jumping back to the past, how was that loop originally created? Its existence hinges on knowledge from the future, which would be impossible to gain the first time. Knowing Akane, there will be some nonsense about Schrodinger's bloody Cat. There was already a hint of actual time travel to the past, so hey, why the hell not? That's what I mean, it just went too far. 999 was more elegant. It also had some crazy past-present strands, but just so much less overweening insanity.

I also just missed the unpredictability of the outcomes. In 999 you had some seriously wild possibilities, notably Clover becoming an axe murderer. It felt a lot more mysterious and gripping for it. VLR is tighter in that respect, but also less surprising

It may seem like I'm strangling the game, but I did really enjoy it! These are all grumblings after just finishing. All in all, it's a unique experience on the 3DS and worth playing.

[Roderick]

Btw, I was also a little bummed out when

Zero III disappeared after the second round and never returned. I liked him so much as an antagonist and the facility felt a lot less menacing and quirky after his departure. Shame he didn't return to wrap things up, as he was such a major presence in the first part.

[Sno]

At 38 hours I finally finished VLR! Lemme hit you up with some spoiler tags.

At first, I was a little bummed out with the flowchart, which was of course before I knew it played such an integral part in the game and was capable of expanding (I would've liked to see a lot more secrets and expansions there, though, for the first 20 hours it's just too easy to see where every path goes). I always dislike it when games have a tendency to reveal too much of their inner structure, especially storywise. It takes away the magic. Having a flowchart is like having a too-convenient map: instead of exploring you just start to tick off locations/branches.

I agree, though i was fairly surprised when hidden branches started revealing themselves, the game probably could have used some more of that. From the start, it could have gradually revealed the order of things instead of having the majority of it all visibly laid out like it does. Seeing clear end points on the flow chart really robs the final ambidex choices of any meaning.

Anyway, that turned out pretty swell. I enjoyed the whole thing, but this was nowhere near as gripping, interesting or carefully structured as 999. In my opinion, VLR jumps the shark in some pretty hilarious ways. Like you said, Sno, near the end it's just loading itself up with so much stuff, and also so much bullshit. I actually did think it overreached. I sort of kind of understand what's happening, but I just can't feel it, experientially, because it's so overblown with all the spirit-jumping, the alternate timelines, the gross mis-applications of quantum theory, hotdamn.

Then there are just plain old annoyances: even with a solid 5 hours of post-climax exposition (!), they don't manage to resolve everything. We know why the third Nonary Game was played, but we still don't know what was the point or conclusion. Shipping the actual resolution off to a third game is just sloppy, and I was pretty disappointed. The game goes out of its way(yyyyyy) to explain every little detail about small sidestories, but the big mysteries (who is Phi? Who is Brother? Who designed Radical-6? What happened in the Nevada test site?) remain untouched.

Then there are plotholes that might still be resolved, but are glaring today. If the third Nonary Game and all the jumping around are designed as a closed loop of history to ensure Sigma jumping back to the past, how was that loop originally created? Its existence hinges on knowledge from the future, which would be impossible to gain the first time. Knowing Akane, there will be some nonsense about Schrodinger's bloody Cat. There was already a hint of actual time travel to the past, so hey, why the hell not? That's what I mean, it just went too far. 999 was more elegant. It also had some crazy past-present strands, but just so much less overweening insanity.

Sci-fi wouldn't be sci-fi without a few gross misunderstandings of quantum mechanics, heh.

VLR has a very unresolved feeling about it when there are these big purposeful blindspots to make room for the third game. I mean, and I don't know how i should feel about that, with so much of the game's finale being set up for another sequel. I think that's probably a thing i shouldn't be cool with, but i still really want to play that third game, they got me. They've set up a cool mystery, i think. I want to know what happened in the Nevada Test Site.

As for how the loop was originally created, the game just seems to imply that some variation of these events had always existed. Sigma being thrown through time by a stressful catalyst event, Left trying to kill him, etc. It seems incremental manipulation grew it into the third Nonary game.

I don't agree that 999 was a more elegant story though, because that narrative has some seriously messy, confusing mechanisms in play. I still don't understand why or how Akane had a phantom self going around that second Nonary game, what were the rules of that? Why was she getting intermittently sick? Was phantom Akane actually Zero? Or was there another real Akane acting as Zero? Was Akane dead all along in that time line, are Junpei's memories false in that game? Did they change history at the end of the game, or just close a loop? Then there's the young Akane implied to be controlling Junpei through time, and... vice versa... Fuuuck. I mean, and that game wants you to sympathize with Akane so badly, but it's kind of impossible to ignore that she was causing some horrific suffering to save herself. VLR's interpretation of the character at least kind of runs with that, Akane is sort of unpleasant in VLR.

I also just missed the unpredictability of the outcomes. In 999 you had some seriously wild possibilities, notably Clover becoming an axe murderer. It felt a lot more mysterious and gripping for it. VLR is tighter in that respect, but also less surprising

Well, on my first playthrough, i ended up with the mass suicide ending before i had any explanation about what Radical 6 was. I also got the ending where Sigma's arm is chopped off before any of the stuff about the robots and time travel. So those ended up being massive WTFs for me. A lot of that stuff really depends on the order you went through the game in.

Also, did you complete all of the puzzles on hard and find all the documents?

It may seem like I'm strangling the game, but I did really enjoy it! These are all grumblings after just finishing. All in all, it's a unique experience on the 3DS and worth playing.

I think it was one of the best things i've played this year.

Btw, I was also a little bummed out when

Zero III disappeared after the second round and never returned. I liked him so much as an antagonist and the facility felt a lot less menacing and quirky after his departure. Shame he didn't return to wrap things up, as he was such a major presence in the first part.

Yeah, he kind of just goes silent for the last third or so of each path. I kept thinking that there were parts where it would be fun if he chimed in to harass people, but he's nowhere to be seen. There's only that tiny bit of justification for it in "Okay, you know all the rules now, peace out." Also, kind of a really grating character, you don't want to overplay that. Their restraint was probably for the best.

Holy shit! Look at all those spoilers!

[Roderick]

Yeah, I got all the files and endings, but believe you me, I kept looking for that one strand I was missing

On reflection, I do agree that 999 was maybe just as preposterous. Elegant might not be the correct word, how about comprehensive? It was better contained, more carefully explained.

Another fun thing to think about: how will the 3rd Zero Escape play out? Suppose the Nevada test site is the place where the fourth Nonary Game takes place. 999 and VLR both hinged on a 'bait and switch' narrative where you thought you were involved in a desperate struggle to survive a maze of traps, but that turned out to be elaborate constructions to provoke semi-magical, semi-scientific principles. Changing the past/future and all that. It was fun to see that pan out. But the next game will be a direct sequel to VLR, not just 'the next story' in that universe. We already know what is going on, what's at stake. Even if we play as a new blank slate character, we'd know what the bigger picture is. I wonder if that won't take away some of the mystery? There are enough questions to be answered of course, but it'll immediately be more than just 'you wake up in a room and don't know where you are'.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sigma Klim and Phi turn out to have shapeshifted into other people, just to create some suspense. For the record; I wouldn't mind at all if the next game feels very different, just like VLR felt different from 999. I like it when series evolve.

[Sno]

I would agree that 999 was totally meticulous about its internal logic right up until the true ending, i think it completely falls apart there. VLR, on the whole, can be a bit messier, but i think its final conclusion is more internally consistent.

As for the upcoming third game, for starters, the fact that it is very unlikely to be yet another Nonary game is probably a good sign for an evolving series.

I also see what you're getting at, but I also strongly suspect that a large majority of the things we have learned in VLR will be irrelevant to this third game. Going into that game knowing that the end of the world is looming and that a cult might be involved could end up being equivalent to going into VLR with knowledge of Zero and the Nonary game from 999.

...

I'm having to be careful about what i say, because there are things the game suggests will happen in the third game, and then there are things the writer has said explicitly in interviews about the third game. It's kind of run together a bit for me, but I will try to avoid things said in interviews.

From VLR, we can be relatively certain that Sigma, Phi, Clover, and Alice will show up. The very definitely final epilogue straight up says that Clover and Alice are going to use a time machine to get back to the past, a revelation that really kind of comes out of nowhere. The only justification offered is that if you can throw minds through time, why not whole people! So that's a lot of returning characters, but VLR itself also had four returnees from 999. (Clover, Alice, Junpei, and Akane.)

That same very definitely final epilogue in VLR also implies that a new individual is interacting with the story. It might still just be one of the Sigmas inhabitating K at the end, but it doesn't quite match up. There's a theory going around that it's actually supposed to be the player now interacting directly with the story. (In which case, in VLR, you have been playing as yourself controlling young Sigma controlling old Sigma. Somebody sound the inception bwong.)

Man, describing the stuff that happens in these games just makes it sound like the most insane goddamned shit, that they were sold without spoiling any of this nonsense is amazing.

[Tanukitsune]

It looks like this will be one of next month's PSN+ rewards... Which is awesome, but it seems 999 was never released in Europe and I won't find a copy in time. :|

 

How essential is it to VLR? Will nothing make sense or will I just miss some interesting background info?

[Roderick]

In essence it's a self-contained story set in the same world as 999, but obviously there are some references and character cross-overs. I would recommend scouting out 999 (not too hard to import, especially after the cheap rerelease) and playing that before VLR, for maximum enjoyment.

(I also enjoyed 999 better, though other think the reverse.)

[Sno]

Take extra care to avoid spoilers, especially the ones in this thread.

I think 999 is probably more important to VLR than what Rodi says, but VLR can probably work as a stand-alone story, you'll just definitely be missing out on a lot of allusions and references and some of the big twists will mean nothing.

Definitely play VLR, but try to find a copy of 999 to play first.

Was it ever confirmed if the save bug affects the Vita version?

[Tanukitsune]

It looks like I should be fine with the Vita version. A Let's player I know did a full 999 playthough, I'm debating whether I should watch to save my money or not. :|

[Roderick]

Honestly, the game costs 20 dollars at this point, and discovering the stories for yourself is a massive joy. You shouldn't even be debating this, 999 is that good.

[Tanukitsune]

Well, I was lucky enough to find a copy on eBay for that price. HUZZAH!

[miffy495]

I bought 999, but it's still in the shrink wrap because school. If this comes as a PSN+ reward in North America too, I'll be very happy and play through 999 ASAP. Sweet news!

[Tanukitsune]

I wouldn't be so sure about that, they seem to be very different rewards most of the time. :|

[Yasawas]

Was it ever confirmed if the save bug affects the Vita version?

I'm pretty sure it does have it. For the benefit of anyone getting this on PS+ - don't save in a puzzle room, navigate back out to a novel section to save and you'll be fine. This will make sense once you start playing and the game is definitely worth the trouble.

April is the first month PS+ has really burned me having already bought Okami (in more expensive hard copy form too!), The Cave and VLR but I'm glad more Vita owners will get to play what is for me the best game on the system by far.