Starship Troopers

[dibs]

The Forever War is amazing. One of my all time favourites. You should check out Starship Troopers of the alt view. I used to be mad for science fiction for before i was born, I think I still have Rerport on Probability A somewhere at home.

The only books I've read in the last month are the Hunger Games. It started off ok, but got worse. What i'm really left with is a lingering desire to watch Battle Royale.

Rodi, are you rebooting the three investigaters? I would buy that. My first child shall be named Jupiter Jones.

[Ben X]

The Forever War is amazing. One of my all time favourites. You should check out Starship Troopers of the alt view.

*for*? Yeah, it reminded me of the Starship Troopers movie with the

"the war was started by an unprovoked attack/invasion by dick humans and is supported by bullshit propaganda"

. I'd like to read ST, but I hear it's sincerely fascistic or war-fetishist (which I guess is what you mean by the alt view) where Verhoeven satirised those things, and I'm not sure how I'd easy a read I'd find that.

[ThunderPeel2001]

*for*? Yeah, it reminded me of the Starship Troopers movie with the

"the war was started by an unprovoked attack/invasion by dick humans and is supported by bullshit propaganda"

. I'd like to read ST, but I hear it's sincerely fascistic or war-fetishist (which I guess is what you mean by the alt view) where Verhoeven satirised those things, and I'm not sure how I'd easy a read I'd find that.

Have you finished The Forever War then?

[Orv]

The thing about Starship Troopers, and frankly Heinlein's fiction in general, is that it seems to be something to everybody. Earlier in my life I would have called Troopers a fascist propaganda piece. Now? I'm not really sure. It has some pieces that are very clearly... questionably motivated, but I think it's a great enough read that if you can save the over-analyzing for after you've finished, you'll enjoy it a lot. It's very much classic military fiction with a great style to it. Think Space Marines but without that silly "no emotions but love for the Emperor" nonsense. Or perhaps more poignantly, Full Metal Jacket but in spaaaaaace.

[Scipio]

I finished Altered Carbon, I don't know if I got used to Agent Noir Hardboiled: Super Cop, as the main character, or it genuinely got better, but I sort of liked it in the end. Took a break in the middle of it to read Dubliners, christ i love short story collections. Got The Shock Doctrine and A Game of Thrones from the library today, and am eyeing them nervously.

face it, it's a good popcorn action and gore fest)

You are crazy, Verhoeven's Starship Troopers is excellent and fucking smart.

[ThunderPeel2001]

You are crazy, Verhoeven's Starship Troopers is excellent and fucking smart.

I want to believe it's very smart, but mostly I think it's just good fun. The satirical stuff is pretty weak, IMHO. What are you getting from it that I'm not?

[Orv]

You are crazy, Verhoeven's Starship Troopers is excellent and fucking smart.

I'm pretty sure you're the crazy one, but I'd be happy to be corrected. I submit as evidence Starship Troopers 2 & 3, The Tit Wars.

[Scipio]

I want to believe it's very smart, but mostly I think it's just good fun. The satirical stuff is pretty weak, IMHO. What are you getting from it that I'm not?

It is good fun, but I would say that the more straight up satire, the obvious dialogue, the gore, is mostly there because Verhoeven is a goofy dude, and does like making fun films. However, the way in which it shows how a fascist state has to work on a technical level is fascinating, what contradictions they have to allow (say gender equality on some level), to provide a functioning system, or why fascism requires an enemy, and how much of it breaks down on meeting reality. (I have been told this is partly Heinlein, in that he actually had a fairly good understanding of his own ideology, tho Verhoeven sez he only read a quarter of the book before binning it.)

The best stuff is in how it uses the style and construction of a propaganda film, right down to the hideously over lit world, without any of the story actually working in the same way as it. Comparing it to Why We Fight, or Trumps of the Will, is incredibly revealing. The interplay between the THIS IS SATIRE news clips and the actual narrative is part of this too, we laugh at the news saying 'their gonna fight-and win!' or whatever it is, because it's stupid, that's obviously propaganda, but when the characters in the film say that their going to win, with absolutely no evidence, why is that different? It's not, the whole thing is a construction. The film's gore comes into this, it very obviously introduces the idea of censorship in one of the news blasts, but relishes in blood and guts in other places, NPH calmly assault rifles the bug in a redonkulus jarring moment.

Christ, this is such a fuckin brain dump, and I can't write for shit, and I haven't covered like a tenth of the stuff in the film. Starship Troopers is a pitch perfect examination of war propaganda by a guy who fucking knew it.

I'm pretty sure you're the crazy one, but I'd be happy to be corrected. I submit as evidence Starship Troopers 2 & 3, The Tit Wars.

I haven't seen 2 or 3, but looking at wiki Phil Tippett directed 2, who's worked with Verhoeven, maybe I'll check it out!

[ThunderPeel2001]

Hmm. I'm still not convinced that it works as a satire. It has satirical moments, but we're on the side of the Troopers. We never see the damage a fascistic society would do to them in real life (e.g. losing citizenship, not being able to vote, someone else sacrificing you for the greater good against your will).

[Scipio]

Hmm. I'm still not convinced that it works as a satire. It has satirical moments, but we're on the side of the Troopers. We never see the damage a fascistic society would do to them in real life (e.g. losing citizenship, not being able to vote, someone else sacrificing you for the greater good against your will).

I would argue that you do see this, you see the hundreds of marines get eaten up for a war that is only taking place to keep a system working. However, because Verhoeven is showing how fascism and fascist propaganda functions we have to want the troops to win, and he uses the techniques of propaganda to do so.

There are moments when the film becomes overly goofy with its satire, primarily the news segments, these are there one because Verhoeven is a funny guy (and perhaps because after living with fascist propaganda he didn't want to make a deadly serious film, can't blame him for wanting to have some fun), and two, to allow us to compare them with the film as a whole.

[brkl]

Starship Troopers is really clever in how it hides its nature. Even having those awful soap actors are there for a reason. If you want to just watch is a brainless action movie and refuse to read into what's going on, the film doesn't force any message on you.

Basically all 1984-inspired sci-fi films and other anti-fascistic films make their message really obvious. Everybody is always completely miserable. This one shows how well-to-do middle class people in a fascistic society can fool themselves into believing everything is fine. So what if they give up the right to vote unless they enlist? Their kids go to school, there's plenty of good entertainment, and anyway, it's war and you don't go changing horses in the middle of the stream...

Starship Troopers 2 and 3 are completely atrocious, but I don't understand how you can blame Verhoeven for projects he wasn't involved with.

EDIT:

Oo, I just remembered how in that propaganda piece in the film where NPH shoots the bug with an assault rifle, quickly dispatching the bug in a shower of gore. However, in the actual fights the bugs aren't overly bothered when shot with the same guns...

And how it was criticized for not having a proper ending when that was the whole point.

Maybe I'll watch it again.

Dubois, the actual history teacher, giving the class on "the right of the enlisted to vote"

But that's totally in there!

[ThunderPeel2001]

I would argue that you do see this, you see the hundreds of marines get eaten up for a war that is only taking place to keep a system working. However, because Verhoeven is showing how fascism and fascist propaganda functions we have to want the troops to win, and he uses the techniques of propaganda to do so.

There are moments when the film becomes overly goofy with its satire, primarily the news segments, these are there one because Verhoeven is a funny guy (and perhaps because after living with fascist propaganda he didn't want to make a deadly serious film, can't blame him for wanting to have some fun), and two, to allow us to compare them with the film as a whole.

But young people get eaten up by war in democratic societies. Look at Vietnam. I don't see any evidence that the society portrayed in Starship Troopers would crumble if there wasn't a war, or that the powers that be are creating one in order to keep the status quo. I can't even think of a real life fascist power that has ever kept a war going for the sheer sake of it, so I don't even know what the point of a film doing that would be.

The film works as propaganda for a fictitious war, but beyond that I don't see any more satire.

[Roderick]

The ending where Neil Patrick Harris proudly proclaims

'He's afraid!'

and everyone starts cheering, I always found delicious as an understandable, but horrible human reaction and I can't imagine it being put their as anything else but satire of the way people behave.

[brkl]

fascist power that has ever kept a war going for the sheer sake of it

Maybe, but it's a staple in dystopic fiction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#The_War .

[ThunderPeel2001]

Maybe, but it's a staple in dystopic fiction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#The_War .

Well it's featured in one dystopian novel, and it's used there to control people through fear. That's not what's depicted in Starship Troopers. The society there is near utopian.

[circadianwolf]

But young people get eaten up by war in democratic societies. Look at Vietnam. I don't see any evidence that the society portrayed in Starship Troopers would crumble if there wasn't a war, or that the powers that be are creating one in order to keep the status quo. I can't even think of a real life fascist power that has ever kept a war going for the sheer sake of it, so I don't even know what the point of a film doing that would be.

I think I see your problem.

[Orv]

But that's totally in there!

Massively pared down, yeah.

[brkl]

A lot of things get pared down when you adapt a novel into a movie. It was mentioned in several scenes, which is plenty in an action movie.

[ThunderPeel2001]

A lot of things get pared down when you adapt a novel into a movie. It was mentioned in several scenes, which is plenty in an action movie.

I still don't see it. One reference to "earning citizenship" does not a satire make.

As I said, I can see it as a parody/satire of pro-war propaganda, and of how enticing it can be made to look, but any direct messages about fascism seem to be being foisted upon it from people's understanding of the original book.

Edit:

I found a few interesting articles that backup the, "it's a clever satire" argument:

Great quote here:

Starship Troopers is a satire of war films, with the fascist rhetoric cranked up to 11. Recruitment commercials feature soldiers letting children play with assault rifles. The sole source of information, the Federal Network, uses as its logo a featureless golden eagle in front of a featureless circling globe. Drill sergeants not only humiliate but maim their recruits, breaking their arms and flinging knives at their hands. The intelligence division, a corps of eerie psychics, walk around in black leather greatcoats. Social Studies teachers laud the virtue of violence and how it’s the tentpole of modern society. And all of this gets beamed back to the civilians on Earth in a friendly, accessible media format. “Would you like to know more?”

http://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/11/26/starship-troopers-fascism/

And:

Then again, Starship Troopers isn’t a satire about any specific war, it’s a brilliant dissection of how all wars work—how they’re packaged and sold via propaganda, how the enemy is (in this case, literally) dehumanized, how young people are sent eagerly to sacrifice on the front lines. For Verhoeven, it’s a subject that’s continually haunted his career, currently bookended by two films, 1977’s Soldier Of Orange and 2006’s Black Book, that cover the Dutch occupation and resistance in World War II with equal parts patriotic fervor and an ironic, often cynical sense of history.

http://www.avclub.com/articles/starship-troopers,41966/

Makes me want to watch it again!

Edited April 21, 2012 by ThunderPeel2001

[brkl]

I think I read the first page of the original book once, but that was probably after I'd seen the movie.

I never claimed the movie had a direct message about fascism -- it has an indirect one. If you refuse to read into yet, you're not going to get anything out of it either.

[ThunderPeel2001]

If you refuse to read into yet, you're not going to get anything out of it either.

If someone claims something is present that I cannot see, the onus is on the person who is insisting it's there to prove to me that it is. I'm not being deliberately difficult, I'm genuinely asking for an explanation.

As it turns out I found a few great articles on the subject that do a wonderful job of pointing out the (very obvious, I must admit) satire of war and propaganda, especially as it was used in the fascist state of Nazi Germany. The film is indeed deeper that it first seems. I had forgotten a lot of the dialogue that's quoted in those articles.

[brkl]

What surprised me is that it's apparently modeled after American films made during WW2.

Proving something like that is a tall order, especially when the movie is at face value the least subtle war movie imaginable. It's not another "Fascism is bad, mmkay?" movie (do we need another one), it mostly just shows how such a society operates in a fantastic, fictional setting. It shows how the population is controlled with propaganda, how an enemy is chosen and dehumanized (easy when they look like insects, but the situation is comparable to how actual fascist states operate), the young are indoctrinated with nationalistic and militant ideas etc. and crucially how innocuous all of that can seem from within that society if you're in the segment of the population that can live in relative comfort.

[Scipio]

If someone claims something is present that I cannot see, the onus is on the person who is insisting it's there to prove to me that it is. I'm not being deliberately difficult, I'm genuinely asking for an explanation.

As it turns out I found a few great articles on the subject that do a wonderful job of pointing out the (very obvious, I must admit) satire of war and propaganda, especially as it was used in the fascist state of Nazi Germany. The film is indeed deeper that it first seems. I had forgotten a lot of the dialogue that's quoted in those articles.

This is (partly) what I was saying! Do I really write that baldy

I saw a small detail that I liked when watching some clips of the film on the youtubes, that I only noticed because I happened to randomly see the first clip about an hour before

<40seconds in.

In book talk, I've started A game of thrones, I had kind of hoped watching the television show would make it a bit quicker to read, but fucking hell there are soooo many names! It is silly.

[Orv]

This is (partly) what I was saying! Do I really write that baldy

Yes.

[Scipio]

Yes.

I'lll leeve it upp their four prostaterity.