The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword

[Tanukitsune]

I've still got a dungeon or two left, but I think it's safe to say this is all you get to see of him in this game?

[Lu]

I've been powering my way through it and I don't want any spoilers so I've not read anything in this thread yet. Just a hint of something I only just discovered . The game might've mentioned it, but I tend to click past tutorial stuff as fast as I can. Anyhoo, if you find yourself low on health, I've noticed that you can sit down and after a few seconds your health starts to regenerate. It was new to me anyway.

[Tanukitsune]

Yeah, that's pretty neat, and if you sit next to someone you'll start a conversation!

I just realized today I won't be able to get all the heart pieces thanks to the bloody minigames, but that's been the case with every Zelda game that had minigames that gave heart pieces.

I guess I'll just try to do the side quests instead, those are fun!

[Lu]

Yeah, that's pretty neat, and if you sit next to someone you'll start a conversation!

Oh yea! That happened several times too. They usually say something they otherwise wouldn't say too.

Oh, I was wondering if anyone else could confirm, but I *think* when you're wailing on the harp, the chords it plays in correspondence to the background music.

[Tanukitsune]

I wouldn't be surprised, the game is filled with little details that would go unnoticed unless you're paying attention, the how the shop keeper looks so dejected the moment you turn away from his store or how certain items can create unexpected situations with enemies and NPCs.

You get a Gust Jar (I think you got one in Minish Cap too?) and it's hilarious to see how people react to it! One lady seemed to... enjoy it?

[Tanukitsune]

Skyward Sword has the WORST OBLIGATORY minigame ever near the end.... It forces you to master a skill you never needed to use before!

Remember how horrible the bird controls? And you never needed to be any good with him? Now you have to do stupid mini-game with him!

[Lu]

Oh, just wait till you get to Faron Woods again after that... Not a mini-game, but good luck finding what you need!! I cannot tell you how much I hate shit like that.

edit: oh, at least I can dowse now...

Edited November 22, 2011 by PiratePooAndHisBattleship

[Tanukitsune]

Oh, just wait till you get to Faron Woods again after that... Not a mini-game, but good luck finding what you need!! I cannot tell you how much I hate shit like that.

Damn, I can't help to notice you the game is become increasingly frustrating...

You aren't talking about the finding the spirit tear things, right? I already did that, if not... how on Earth did you get ahead of the unemployed guy who was the first to get it? XD

But seriously, that mini-game, it's like taking a chemistry test and all of the sudden then demand you draw a photo-realistic capybara from memory or else you fail the test. I have no idea if that made any sense....

[Lu]

I've been binging all weekend. In retrospect, the Faron Woods thing wasn't THAT bad. It's two parts cool, one part annoying shit.

[Tanukitsune]

So the bloody bird target mini-game is actually doable?

EDIT: It was doable! And I'm beginning to see what you said about what comes after it.

At least I'm almost done with the side quests. I might grind for ingredients for potions and upgrades, but I just can't find anymore blue feathers! D:

Edited November 22, 2011 by Tanukitsune

[Lu]

I just rage quit a Zelda game. I cannot remember that ever happening. I've found over the course of playing it that there is SOMETHING impure about the way the sword works. Honestly, this game reminds me why the Wii is my least played system: 1. Wrist cramp and arm cramps 2. Even with motion plus, it does not always read inputs correctly. I basically had a moment where I was fighting a boss and more times than I can count, I did a swing and it read the exact OPPOSITE of what I did. I move my hand left to right, but it displays as right to left instead.

edit: Thinking about it, I wonder it has something to do with, it's when you move your hand left to right in a speedy manner from a somewhat central position, that the controller goes from | to slighty \ to / as you finish the swing? That it picks up on that tiny motion instead and then as you do the actual swing, it's already outputting the unintended movement... Or something.

Edited November 23, 2011 by PiratePooAndHisBattleship

[Tanukitsune]

Yep, it seems the Wii Motion plus needs to be re-calibrated way to often, why do you think so many items have the "center" option?

I think making smaller motions helps a little and sometimes putting away and taking out your sword works too?

But yeah, it kinda sucks.

[Lu]

Welp, I finished it! I did a bunch of thinking about it and on the whole I enjoyed it. It's definitely a step up from Twilight Princess, which I found to be rather boring (seems I'm not the only one), but I wish Nintendo had pushed it even farther and did away with a lot of other Zelda tropes as well.

Mainly, Nintendo needs to quit it with the insipid fetch quests and other padding like that. A lot of moments really feel like a slog in order to get to the good parts of the game. That being the dungeons, exploring new areas, watching the story unfold. I really had a lot of fun with the dungeons and this time around you actually use most of your tools throughout the game. The best moments really are when you're momentarily stumped and you suddenly figure it out.

Which reminds me. I hate, hate, HATE the CONSTANT interruptions the game throws in your face. If it isn't Fi interrupting you with something I'd rather have figured out myself, it's picking up monster items and the game acting as if you picked it up for the first time, with the full holding it out + description + going into the menu and doing a fancy "You found a sharp claw! It looks so sharp and also useful for something! +1!!" this happens ALL THE TIME. The 39th time I picked up a jello blob thing and it did it, I yelled a lot of profanities at the screen and cursed the creators of the game.

You see, it's shit like that that hangs over the game's good points like a dark cloud, constantly pulling me out of the experience and souring my enjoyment.

[Tanukitsune]

Actually, I notice it only does the unskippable item description once per session, which make sense, the game doesn't know when your last session was, so giving a refresher seems reasonable.

What really pissed me off is the dowsing ability, wanna guess when Fi gained the ability to detect Gratitude Crystals? When I finished the quest!

I'm pretty sure there is another item I no longer need Fi can detect once I talk to the appropriate person.

I've got 5 bottles with a Life Potion ++ and I'm pretty sure I'm about to enter the final dungeon/battle, I think I'm ready!

[Tanukitsune]

I finally beat the game too...

So it's pretty safe to say that this game takes place before all the other Zelda's and Demise will be reborn as Ganondorf?

But what about the technology? Does this mean Fi is dormant in the Master Sword in all the other games? Where did the robots go?

Where did all the species go?

I shouldn't dwell on it too much, since Hyrule's timeline is a mess, but I think we finally have a starting point.

Also...

[Sno]

THREAD NECROMANCY.

I just received this as a Christmas gift and i've got maybe about six hours in on it right now.

I had never bought it for myself because i had been a little apprehensive about playing Skyward Sword, i guess.

It looks like i have in this thread already bitched about the last few Zelda games, so i won't repeat myself at length, but Twilight Princess was a game that had left me with a sour taste because of its clunky, unreliable, and unecessary motion control. (I still regret not having played the GC version instead.)

I'm pretty pleased to be having a mostly positive experience with Skyward Sword.

1 - I feel like Skyward Sword is a design that actually benefits from being played with the Wii-remote.

2 - It feels like a really mature and intelligent implementation of that controller.

For example, i've noticed that the game uses certain predictable player actions to constantly and quietly recalibrate the Wii-remote, theoretically getting around one of the main problems with the Wii-motion plus tech. (That it constantly loses track of itself.)

I'm feeling like it is a game that shows Nintendo finally coming to grips with the Wii-remote and delivering on some of the original promises that were made of the Wii, so it's kind of unfortunate that it came too late in the system's lifespan to really mean anything.

I'm finding the control pretty responsive and reliable, i'm enjoying the dynamics of the combat, and i'm finding that it holds up pretty well even with Skyward Sword possibly being one of the more demanding Zelda games. (Hits taking a full heart, and the whole thing about the game emphasizing parries because normal blocks wear on your shield. I know the shield thing is one of the more controversial aspects of the game, but it's the kind of sadistic player-unfriendly thing i really enjoy.)

I hope these things hold up for the duration of the game, because right now, they're feeling pretty promising and awesome. The way it's even incorporated detection of simple details like how you're holding the sword as actual game mechanics for determning how the enemies will try to block attacks, that shit is pretty cool.

(Things i am reading in this thread are worrying me.)

It's a beautiful game too, i love the painterly looking distance blur going on.

However, while I understand that it's apparently one of the longer Zelda games, it feels small with the frequent load screens breaking the world up into such small chunks. The overworld area is clearly meant to evoke Wind Waker, but it not only seems to be a much smaller space, loading into and out of the main town destroys any intended effect.

Also, people definitely weren't wrong about that game having a glacially paced opening. I'm not exceedingly bothered by that though, you just have to be in the right mindset for games like that, don't play them on a deadline.

Also, is anybody aware of where in the game the game-breaking save bug can occur? I know there's a utility on the WiiShop to unbrick affected saves, but i feel like i should probably still be aware of causes it.

Also, this game's Zelda is adorable.

[Lu]

At some point, you're gonna have to do four things. You can decide the order. Avoid the Thunder Dragon and desert and do another thing first, you'll be fine. Talking to a particular individual in that area more than once breaks it.

[Sno]

This is a weird game.

There are a lot of little things that feel like legitimate modernizations that the series has needed. Some things as simple as being able to disable the incredibly garish "WE'RE GOING TO MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHAT THESE BUTTONS DO" portion of the UI, but also having save points in the middle of the dungeons.

For all of those things though, there's still shit like the game forcing you to read each and every item description once per gameplay session, and the continued absence of text scrolling options.

I am enjoying this though, i like Skyward Sword.

The overworld also reminds me quite a lot of Minish Cap and some of the older 2d games, being not so much a wide open hub space, but in many ways an outward extension of the dungeons.

[miffy495]

I have one dungeon left in this game. I should really finish it before school starts again.

[Sno]

I am enough hours into this game that i am at the point where i would have been finished with Wind Waker or Twilight Princess, but it looks like i'm only a little ways past the half-way point in this game. It is definitely one of the longer Zelda games.

So, as the game gradually starts asking for more precise and demanding actions out of its control, there is a point where it starts feeling kludgy. The game is still really good about quietly reorienting the control, i've actually had to recalibrate the wii-remote only once, which is something i absolutely cannot say about other wii motionplus games. Still, when it loses tracking in the middle of a long and difficult fight, that completely sucks. (What seems to trip it up is holding the wii-remote at an angle for extended periods of time.)

I mean, and there's still just all of the ambiguity about that input. It wants you to carefully time your attacks and defense, but as the window closes in on that stuff, it still comes back to feeling like the kind of stuff that waving a controller through the air can't be offering the kind of precision you need.

I'm still pretty on board on with game though, it mostly works, and it's trying really, really hard to justify its control scheme. The problem i had with Twilight Princess was that it so clearly would have been a better game with the control scheme it had been designed for, because on the Wii version there are a lot of basic inputs that are totally unreliable. Skyward Sword never gets there, it's never missing inputs. (Except for when it is obviously my fault and i am trying to do something else in the middle of another animation.) It's also a design that i don't think could work without the motion control, and its uses of the motion control are interesting enough that i am not soured on the game by its failings.

I mean, it's also one of the most genuinely challenging Zelda games in ages, and i have not died to motion control hiccups or anything. (Not to say that it's actually all that difficult, i think it's just about right. Twilight Princess and Wind Waker were particularly effortless games.)

Actually, my biggest issue with the control in the game has nothing to do with motion control. I hate that the aiming modes orient to the camera instead of the player facing, fuck that. (Though the underwater dash is really finicky, i feel like you could sigh in the general direction of the wii-remote and trigger that.)

The constant load screens are also a big bummer, it's a huge game environment, but it ends up feeling incredibly small. Loading into the market, loading into the town, loading into the sky, loading into the map screen to select a drop location, loading into the area below, loading through the doors, loading into the dungeon. If it streamed through all of that stuff, the game would seem massive.

I also wish they went further with their impressionistic art style. When you catch a hint of it, it looks amazing, but it's so subdued.

I realize now that i am not saying anything nice about this game.

I really like Skyward Sword.

[tegan]

I was never big on this game to begin with, but I'm interested in seeing how the second half of the game goes for you, since that was where the spiraling abyss that is my hatred for this game truly began.

[Sno]

Oh god, are you fucking kidding me? I've walked right into the sequence of events that leads to the game-breaking bug.

People kept saying that it would happen at a point where i had a choice to explore the three areas at will, but but the game doesn't ever make it clear that you can.

It tells you to go to the forest first, and then to the desert. Blaaaah.

Whatever, there's that save fix utility on WiiShop. Still, holy shit, that is a bad bug. That is a serious issue.

Edit: Or is it? I don't know, i think i may have misinterpreted descriptions of where the bug occurs.

Dammit, i hate having a game-breaking bug looming on the horizon when i play a game.

[Sno]

Okay, i thought i was near the end of the game, i was definitely not.

I think it was another fifteen to twenty hours or so, but i am finished Skyward Sword. That was a seventy hour game for me. (Most of the other 3D Zeldas are games i have finished in around 40-50 hours with a modestly completist mindset, so this is definitely quite a long game.)

I guess i really enjoyed it, I thought they did a lot of really fucking cool stuff all throughout the desert area. A lot of the later dungeons in the game too, some really cool stuff, i thought. Some really fantastic boss fights as well, maybe some of the best in the series, i'm not sure.

I still really appreciate save points in dungeons, having to bail out of your progress through an elaborate interlocking environment puzzle was one of the worst things for the Zelda series to hang onto for so long.

I think the game seriously underutilizes certain items. I mean, the whip is a lot of fun to use, but they don't really give you very many reasons to use it.

I like what they did with crafting and the potion brewing thing, but those fucking once-a-session item descriptions for the crafting objects are such a downer.

I cannot fucking figure out why this game decided it had to go with this weird motion-controlled pointer thing, it is so much more unreliable and finicky than the Wii remote's normal led/camera pointer. When you start having to use the bow a lot later in the game, constantly having to manually recenter the aim detection is just completely a pain in the ass. Like, and sometimes when you're staring a puzzle or a menu for a while, the pointer starts drifting off center and going just completely sideways. That shit is busted, and that part of the control became a serious nuisance towards the end.

I don't feel like the sword combat ever completely breaks down though, it's always a bit fidgety, but I think Nintendo pretty well found the limit of what that interface can do. They ask you to do interesting things without ever asking too much of it. (Though there's a couple gnarly fights where they throw large groups of enemies that, each on their own, require complex interactions. So admittedly, during those fights, i was kind of just flailing around.)

I'm still really bummed out by how much the world is broken up into all these tiny little pieces, it makes the game feel so much smaller than it actually is.

I think Fi might be the dullest companion in the entire series, but probably not the most annoying.

Tegan, where did the game fall apart for you? There wasn't really anything that stood out to me as awful about the last parts of the game.

At the end there, it definitely feels like it's contriving just a few more reasons for you to go back into those environments, but i was pleasantly surprised by how involved and elaborate that stuff actually ended up being. To me, It definitely doesn't feel like the last chunk of Wind Waker, but it was still maybe one step too far for the game.

Maybe i enjoyed it so much because i wasn't expecting to like it much at all, that's definitely a possibility, but after being really disappointed witht he last few Zelda games, i thought Skyward Sword was pretty damn great. Definitely not my new favorite game in the series or anything, but i think it is a fine game and one i certainly wouldn't hesitate to recommend.

[tegan]

Tegan, where did the game fall apart for you? There wasn't really anything that stood out to me as awful about the last parts of the game.

Off the top of my head:

• Collecting music notes a la Banjo Kazooie in the flooded forest
  
• The escort mission with the goddamned flying robot
  
• "You seem to be low on hearts, master"
  
• They tried to put a non-linear segment in this game. It caused a game-breaking bug. This is the ultimate joke about modern Zelda
  
• Surprisingly few enemies, and almost all of them are fought in the exact same way. Darknuts are curiously absent despite being the only Zelda enemies that are traditionally faced in a sword duel
  
• A lot of the mechanics of the game feel like unnecessary cruft. For example, the clawshots are only really used as a glorified key now, but they retain the vestigial mechanics of the Ocarina of Time all-purpose supertool the Longshot. In this game, to use the clawshots, I always followed the pattern of:
  

1) hold down button to enter ring menu

2) select clawshots from ring menu

3) press button to enter clawshot mode

4) lock onto designated clawshot target because I always forget that Z-targetting doesn't actually lock you onto things in this game but

you can still do it anyway

5) manually point clawshot at designated clawshot target

6) press button to fire and get pulled toward clawsot target.

Now that it's not a feasible combat item, why bother? Just make it a passive item like the Link to the Past Zora Flippers and parse it down to:

1) lock onto designated clawshot target and automatically fire and get pulled toward clawshot target.

It would at least make clawshot movement feel fluid if you could easily chain actions together without cumbersome control methods

• Having to do the Silent Realm thing four times
  
• Instead of just finding a secret, you now have to find a secret in one spot and hit it with a sword beam, then find it in another spot. It feels like that mechanic only existed to justify having an enormous, completely empty sky world
  
• Having to fight Moldarach and Scervo a second time for no discernable reason, which just kind of made fights that I did enjoy feel less special
  
• Having to fight Ghirahim, my second most-hated boss, three times
  
• Having to fight The Imprisoned, my most hated boss, three times
  
• Getting to fight Koloktos, the most amazing boss, only once
  
• The "didn't I see some scissors back there?" issue of the very late-game fetch quests. I spent the entire game wondering when I would get to use the one-eyed statue in Skyloft and the little patch of grass near the Gate of Time
  
• The final dungeon being a sliding block puzzle
  

To top it all off, the sword controls just plain never worked properly for me and it was really beginning to grate by the end of the game. Just to avoid pooping all over the game, here are some things that I really liked:

• Basing a dungeon on a Buddhist parable of all things is probably the most inspired thing a Zelda game has ever done. Most of the dungeons in general did a very good job of avoiding the usual Fire Dungeon, Water Dungeon, etc pattern
  
• KOLOKTOOOOOS! Admittedly, fighting this guy twice probably wouldn't have improved the game, but he's easily my favourite Zelda boss
  
• I thought the final fight against Demise was frustrating and unfair until I finally beat him. It took all of my ~vidya game chops~ and I was absolutely drained and exhausted by the time I finished it. It ended up being perhaps the most satisfying final boss I've ever fought
  
• Focusing on a small inventory and attempting to make them as useful as possible rather than expanding to a massive cornucopia of one-use items is a step in the right directions
  
• The game semi-frequently giving me more options besides the sword in combat was relieving since I disliked using it. I predominantly used the Beetle, the Bow, or my environment (ie: dropping beehives on enemies or tricking them into running outside of Timeshift Zone areas so that they age 2000 years and die like that dude from Last Crusade)
  
• Although I didn't actually enjoy any of it, making swordplay more involved has potential
  
• I really liked sprinting and parkour, though I don't know how to feel about the stamina meter. I find it hard to believe that the Goddess wold choose a hero who gets tired after fifteen seconds of indoor jogging. Maybe it would help if you could upgrade it
  
• I didn't know how to feel about upgrading weapons and potions, but it never felt particularly grindy and it adds some much-needed depth
  
• The Woodtick-in-Monkey-Island-2 music fading the the Skyloft bazaar.
  
• turning the whole surface of the world into a sort of pseudo-dungeon that needs to be solved in sequence is a genius move
  
• dousing, while clunky to use, is functionally very useful
  

In conclusion, The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword is a land of many contrasts. I'll probably replay it again eventually for the parts that I enjoyed, but my overall experience with the game felt fundamentally soured.

[Sno]

Off the top of my head:

• Collecting music notes a la Banjo Kazooie in the flooded forest
  
• The escort mission with the goddamned flying robot
  
• "You seem to be low on hearts, master"
  
• They tried to put a non-linear segment in this game. It caused a game-breaking bug. This is the ultimate joke about modern Zelda
  
• Surprisingly few enemies, and almost all of them are fought in the exact same way. Darknuts are curiously absent despite being the only Zelda enemies that are traditionally faced in a sword duel
  
• A lot of the mechanics of the game feel like unnecessary cruft. For example, the clawshots are only really used as a glorified key now, but they retain the vestigial mechanics of the Ocarina of Time all-purpose supertool the Longshot. In this game, to use the clawshots, I always followed the pattern of:
  

1) hold down button to enter ring menu

2) select clawshots from ring menu

3) press button to enter clawshot mode

4) lock onto designated clawshot target because I always forget that Z-targetting doesn't actually lock you onto things in this game but

you can still do it anyway

5) manually point clawshot at designated clawshot target

6) press button to fire and get pulled toward clawsot target.

Now that it's not a feasible combat item, why bother? Just make it a passive item like the Link to the Past Zora Flippers and parse it down to:

1) lock onto designated clawshot target and automatically fire and get pulled toward clawshot target.

It would at least make clawshot movement feel fluid if you could easily chain actions together without cumbersome control methods

• Having to do the Silent Realm thing four times
  
• Instead of just finding a secret, you now have to find a secret in one spot and hit it with a sword beam, then find it in another spot. It feels like that mechanic only existed to justify having an enormous, completely empty sky world
  
• Having to fight Moldarach and Scervo a second time for no discernable reason, which just kind of made fights that I did enjoy feel less special
  
• Having to fight Ghirahim, my second most-hated boss, three times
  
• Having to fight The Imprisoned, my most hated boss, three times
  
• Getting to fight Koloktos, the most amazing boss, only once
  
• The "didn't I see some scissors back there?" issue of the very late-game fetch quests. I spent the entire game wondering when I would get to use the one-eyed statue in Skyloft and the little patch of grass near the Gate of Time
  
• The final dungeon being a sliding block puzzle
  

To top it all off, the sword controls just plain never worked properly for me and it was really beginning to grate by the end of the game. Just to avoid pooping all over the game, here are some things that I really liked:

• Basing a dungeon on a Buddhist parable of all things is probably the most inspired thing a Zelda game has ever done. Most of the dungeons in general did a very good job of avoiding the usual Fire Dungeon, Water Dungeon, etc pattern
  
• KOLOKTOOOOOS! Admittedly, fighting this guy twice probably wouldn't have improved the game, but he's easily my favourite Zelda boss
  
• I thought the final fight against Demise was frustrating and unfair until I finally beat him. It took all of my ~vidya game chops~ and I was absolutely drained and exhausted by the time I finished it. It ended up being perhaps the most satisfying final boss I've ever fought
  
• Focusing on a small inventory and attempting to make them as useful as possible rather than expanding to a massive cornucopia of one-use items is a step in the right directions
  
• The game semi-frequently giving me more options besides the sword in combat was relieving since I disliked using it. I predominantly used the Beetle, the Bow, or my environment (ie: dropping beehives on enemies or tricking them into running outside of Timeshift Zone areas so that they age 2000 years and die like that dude from Last Crusade)
  
• Although I didn't actually enjoy any of it, making swordplay more involved has potential
  
• I really liked sprinting and parkour, though I don't know how to feel about the stamina meter. I find it hard to believe that the Goddess wold choose a hero who gets tired after fifteen seconds of indoor jogging. Maybe it would help if you could upgrade it
  
• I didn't know how to feel about upgrading weapons and potions, but it never felt particularly grindy and it adds some much-needed depth
  
• The Woodtick-in-Monkey-Island-2 music fading the the Skyloft bazaar.
  
• turning the whole surface of the world into a sort of pseudo-dungeon that needs to be solved in sequence is a genius move
  
• dousing, while clunky to use, is functionally very useful
  

In conclusion, The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword is a land of many contrasts. I'll probably replay it again eventually for the parts that I enjoyed, but my overall experience with the game felt fundamentally soured.

• Regarding the section with the notes, it just didn't bother me. I thought it was fun seeing the forest flooded and i finished the sequence in about a half hour. A friend later told me that it was the one part of the game they hated more than any other, and i was actually a bit surprised.
  
• Likewise with the escort sequence, i just didn't have any issue with it. Finished it in one go, didn't give it a second thought. Scouted ahead, cleared out enemies with a bow, robot had a clear path.
  
• Did you find those sequences frustrating, or was it merely the presence of an item hunt and an escort mission?
  
• Of course, the reality is that most of the Zelda games have had pretty serious game-breaking issues. (Twilight Princess has two quite severe scripting breaks, and there are more in the series, all the way back to Link's Awakening.) There's a question to ask about why this keeps happening to one of Nintendo's flagship franchises, but the issue with Skyward Sword is only notable because it happens so extremely late in the game.
  
• I did find the low hearts thing annoying, but still not as annoying as "HEY LISTEN" once was.
  
• I suppose it is true that there wasn't as much enemy variety in this game as there has been in past games. The patterns and interactions for each individual enemy type are much more involved than any previous Zelda game though, i think i would call it even.
  
• I didn't even consider this, but it's absolutely true that the hook shot was completely reduced to a navigational tool in Skyward Sword. This perhaps goes with my comments towards feeling that the game seriously underutilized some of its toolbox.
  
• I thought the Silent Realm sequences were really very cool, though I wish they were contextualized in a more interesting manner than simply being "a trial".
  
• The Goddess Cubes feel an awful lot like some of the more unpopular elements of Wind Waker, and l wish they could have conjured up a better reason to explore the skybox.
  
• I enjoyed both of those bosses, so... eh. (Though, I will certainly agree that Koloktos was the best boss fight in the game.) The only boss in the game that bothered me was Demise's second form and that it was dependent on a trick. (A kind of clever trick that i felt dumb for not figuring out right away, there are definitely things you can read into during that fight that reveal the solution, but it still felt like a bit of a cheat to introduce this new and unexplained mechanic for the very final battle of the game.)
  
• I have a hard time being bothered by that when that is kind of what adventure games are about. Seeing something interesting, moving along, and then trying to figure out how you apply new information and abilities to that interesting thing you saw earlier. Those fetch quests certainly do not direct you to those locations, it is left for you to puzzle out.
  
• I thought it was a really fucking cool sliding block puzzle. *Shrug*