Blue sky in American games?

[Tanukitsune]

No, I was responding to the list of games CaptainFish mentioned.

What do you mean it does not? Bulletstorm has blue skies and is overall quite colorful (but it's not an American game, as PCF is Polish). Or did I miss some part of the discussion?

Yes, you did. The whole "blue sky games" this is a reference to a campaign I linked to, many people seemed to have missed it, I guess I should have made the hyperlink stand out more?

The campaign is about happier and more positive games it's called "Blue Sky in Games" because a blue sky is usually always in these kind of games. The campaign is not just colorful "kiddy" games since they mention Prince of Persia, which I think has a pretty positive message and feel to it if you ignore the emo one.

It's the "nerd's curse" I guess, I always assume people know what I'm talking, since I discovered the site here, I assumed most people here would know it. Sorry about that, I explained it later but by then the thread was flooded with screenshots of blue skies.

[ThunderPeel2001]

At this moment, I'm debating whether a "happy game" is just a "kids" game or if more adult games can be "happy" too.

As you get older you get more of a taste for more complicated things, that aren't so straight forward. So instead of "goodies beat baddies", it's "who is this baddie? is he really so bad? what makes him bad?" or "how do I get over this broken relationship?" or "who am I?". This has got nothing to do with how "happy" a story is.

There are plenty of "happy" things enjoyed by adults. Look at the film world. Monty Python, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, The Big Lebowski, Singing in the Rain, Knocked Up, Clerks, The Life Aquatic, Team America. None of these are "kids" films, but they're "happy" in the sense that they're "feel good". They're not dark or gritty. Their tones are light and fun.

Something being dark and gritty for the sake of it, is actually very childish, and appeals to a simplistic appreciation of things. Grand Theft Auto is a perfect example of this, if you ask me, although I think they've attempted to make the stories more subtle, nuanced and realistic (and therefore appeal more to adults).

I'm so turned off by games that are "dark" for the sake of it, that I'm sure there's many better examples I don't know about.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Yes, you did. The whole "blue sky games" this is a reference to a campaign I linked to, many people seemed to have missed it, I guess I should have made the hyperlink stand out more?

The campaign is about happier and more positive games it's called "Blue Sky in Games" because a blue sky is usually always in these kind of games. The campaign is not just colorful "kiddy" games since they mention Prince of Persia, which I think has a pretty positive message and feel to it if you ignore the emo one.

It's the "nerd's curse" I guess, I always assume people know what I'm talking, since I discovered the site here, I assumed most people here would know it. Sorry about that, I explained it later but by then the thread was flooded with screenshots of blue skies.

It's got nothing to do with the "nerd's curse" (whatever that is), you've just changed your original question, which was:

It seems that when a Japanese company tries to make a game that should appeal to the West they make dark, gritty and gory, some people would call it offensive, but... Isn't it what most American games are?

[Ben X]

You really think I'm making mistakes on purpose just to upset people?

Yes, I think you enjoy creating or getting into arguments. You either set up these nonsensical debate threads and then stamp your feet when people give a different answer to the one you wanted or point out the problems with your question/argument, or you jump into discussions and stir them up. You misinterpret or invent things people have said and endeavour to keep arguments going in a big circle for as long as possible.

Your only reaction to the gentle teasing of the tags, any light admonishments or diplomatic highlighting of your actions, which have come from various people, has been to get aggressive, shouting "derpy trolls" rather than wondering if they are fair criticisms and you are in fact the root of the problem.

The extent and regularity of all this can't be put down to any language barriers, as your English is fine. At first I reminded my self that Thumbs' surge in popularity means younger members are bound to come in and be a bit YouTube commenty, but then I checked your profile and saw that apparently you're 34. I can only see it as being either willful trolling, or extreme self-delusion.

I'm not going to bother giving any examples - perhaps you can look through your posts in the last couple of months and try to identify them all yourself - or respond any further because it will give you further opportunity to do the stuff I've listed above.

If you decide to keep on going the way you are, then I'll simply ignore it as other, more sensible, members do. But it's a shame because I feel like it's causing a general vibe of aggression across the forums and bringing the place down.

[Tanukitsune]

As you get older you get more of a taste for more complicated things, that aren't so straight forward. So instead of "goodies beat baddies", it's "who is this baddie? is he really so bad? what makes him bad?" or "how do I get over this broken relationship?" or "who am I?". This has got nothing to do with how "happy" a story is.

There are plenty of "happy" things enjoyed by adults. Look at the film world. Monty Python, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, The Big Lebowski, Singing in the Rain, Knocked Up, Clerks, The Life Aquatic, Team America. None of these are "kids" films, but they're "happy" in the sense that they're "feel good". They're not dark or gritty. Their tones are light and fun.

Something being dark and gritty for the sake of it, is actually very childish, and appeals to a simplistic appreciation of things. Grand Theft Auto is a perfect example of this, if you ask me, although I think they've attempted to make the stories more subtle, nuanced and realistic (and therefore appeal more to adults).

I'm so turned off by games that are "dark" for the sake of it, that I'm sure there's many better examples I don't know about.

I've only seen Monty Python and Singing in the Rain, I vaguely remember Clerks and Team America. I'm not sure if I've heard the expression "feel good", but I think it "feels right" to what I'm trying to explain?

As for the other thing, this was in my first post:

Can you really blame Japan for making "dark n' gritty" games for the West? Can you really think of a "blue sky" game made by a big company recently? If you can was it was actually developed by an American team?

Yes, I think you enjoy creating or getting into arguments. You either set up these nonsensical debate threads and then stamp your feet when people give a different answer to the one you wanted or point out the problems with your question/argument, or you jump into discussions and stir them up. You misinterpret or invent things people have said and endeavour to keep arguments going in a big circle for as long as possible.

Your only reaction to the gentle teasing of the tags, any light admonishments or diplomatic highlighting of your actions, which have come from various people, has been to get aggressive, shouting "derpy trolls" rather than wondering if they are fair criticisms and you are in fact the root of the problem.

The extent and regularity of all this can't be put down to any language barriers, as your English is fine. At first I reminded my self that Thumbs' surge in popularity means younger members are bound to come in and be a bit YouTube commenty, but then I checked your profile and saw that apparently you're 34. I can only see it as being either willful trolling, or extreme self-delusion.

I'm not going to bother giving any examples - perhaps you can look through your posts in the last couple of months and try to identify them all yourself - or respond any further because it will give you further opportunity to do the stuff I've listed above.

If you decide to keep on going the way you are, then I'll simply ignore it as other, more sensible, members do. But it's a shame because I feel like it's causing a general vibe of aggression across the forums and bringing the place down.

You seem to be the only person here who thinks this thread is trolling, people are only getting upset because YOU claimed this was a troll thread.

And if the forums feel more tense it all started when YOU started to pick on ME!

And don't you dare say I'm the only person who makes mistakes, there are threads where I haven't even made a post where the exact same mistake YOU claim I only make, on purpose, and the only person who seem to get upset on my threads are YOU AND ME! And I only get upset because YOU PICK ON ME! You seem to see a incoming flame war in every time I post, and yet when a thread I haven't touched is actually getting heated, you don't say a thing? What hypocrisy!

The forum was never puppies and rainbows, but it was pretty damn peaceful until YOU started with your damn anonymous tags!

So.. I think you're a despicable monster troll and I think you're the reason the forum is in turmoil, you think the same of me... What do we do now?

[Chris]

Something being dark and gritty for the sake of it, is actually very childish, and appeals to a simplistic appreciation of things. Grand Theft Auto is a perfect example of this, if you ask me, although I think they've attempted to make the stories more subtle, nuanced and realistic (and therefore appeal more to adults).

I fully disagree with this. I think that since its inception, the GTA series has had a strong sense of self-awareness. I also think that if you're making a game about crime in a modern urban city, a relatively high degree of "dark and gritty" is utterly intrinsic to the setting, and not there simply for its own sake. I mean if there's any setting imaginable that actually deserves to be dark and gritty, it's the one in which the player is a criminal living in an impersonal urban metropolis.

Hell, just walking down the street in some parts of New York in real life can be a dark and gritty experience.

[elmuerte]

Yes, you did. The whole "blue sky games" this is a reference to a campaign I linked to, many people seemed to have missed it, I guess I should have made the hyperlink stand out more?

The campaign is about happier and more positive games it's called "Blue Sky in Games" because a blue sky is usually always in these kind of games. The campaign is not just colorful "kiddy" games since they mention Prince of Persia, which I think has a pretty positive message and feel to it if you ignore the emo one.

oh, I didn't get that from the linked article. The way I read the article Bulletstorm is almost a perfect fit. Even the red shoes guideline.

[Tanukitsune]

oh, I didn't get that from the linked article. The way I read the article Bulletstorm is almost a perfect fit. Even the red shoes guideline.

I haven't really played the game, I will when the price drops, so the story is more light? How do they deal with the revenge thing? Is everything over the top and not taken seriously? The action and the dialogue seem to fit , but you've played the game recently, right?

[Ben X]

but it was pretty damn peaceful until YOU started with your damn anonymous tags!

I'll respond just to clarify this: I didn't start those tags. I did a couple of the 'tdngi' and 'wwtgi?' tags but not the first ones, and the 'undercover troll' tag but not the 'why do you feed?' one. Someone else started it and at least one other person apart from me carried it on.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I fully disagree with this. I think that since its inception, the GTA series has had a strong sense of self-awareness. I also think that if you're making a game about crime in a modern urban city, a relatively high degree of "dark and gritty" is utterly intrinsic to the setting, and not there simply for its own sake. I mean if there's any setting imaginable that actually deserves to be dark and gritty, it's the one in which the player is a criminal living in an impersonal urban metropolis.

You do understand (especially given my previous examples of "happy" things) that I wasn't talking about aesthetics, right?

When I said I was turned off by games being "dark and gritty" for the sake of it, that includes choosing to set a game in a deliberately violent, OTT universe.

The fact that DMA Design deliberately chose gang crime as the subject of their game, is what I was trying to get at. It was not a realistic or complicated look at "crime in a modern urban city", it was a deliberately, self-aware, OTT representation of crime. The type of "dark and gritty" crime as represented in Hollywood movies (i.e. entertainment), but turned up to 11. It was not a mature exploration of such things, it was a base and childish cash-in.

That said, it's probably not the best example, because they did have their tongue in their cheek, even if they were hoping people would buy it because of how "controversial" it was.

[Tanukitsune]

But you admit you are one of them, right?

Haven't you noticed that the only people yelling at each other are you an me? Where is this turmoil you claim I started?

The only turmoil that arises is when I react to the tags and get upset and then others get upset and feel bad.

So maybe this is the the other anonymous troll who started this all's fault, but you can't say I'm a troll for getting upset over getting troll when the trolling is real and you can't say I'm trolling from making mistakes others are making constantly, Thunderpeel has replied to me claiming I didn't say thing I actually did it's getting annoying, you yourself put the tag because you didn't bother to read the full post where I probably sounded like a douche if you half read it.

Stop being so biased!

[ThunderPeel2001]

The extent and regularity of all this can't be put down to any language barriers, as your English is fine.

Can't say I'd agree his English is fine!

Haven't you noticed that the only people yelling at each other are you an me? Where is this turmoil you claim I started?

I certainly understand BBX's and Orvidos's points, Tanu. I don't think it's fair to just point at BBX and blame it all on him.

[Chris]

You do understand (especially given my previous examples of "happy" things) that I wasn't talking about aesthetics, right?

When I said I was turned off by games being "dark and gritty" for the sake of it, that includes choosing to set a game in a deliberately violent, OTT universe.

The fact that DMA Design deliberately chose gang crime as the subject of their game, is what I was trying to get at. It was not a realistic or complicated look at "crime in a modern urban city", it was a deliberately, self-aware, OTT representation of crime. The type of "dark and gritty" crime as represented in Hollywood movies (i.e. entertainment), but turned up to 11. It was not a mature exploration of such things, it was a base and childish cash-in.

That said, it's probably not the best example, because they did have their tongue in their cheek, even if they were hoping people would buy it because of how "controversial" it was.

Do you have any evidence of this whatsoever? You're making accusations about motive, not simply commenting on actual content.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Do you have any evidence of this whatsoever? You're making accusations about motive, not simply commenting on actual content.

Sure. Which part? (I hope you're not asking me to prove that a game called Grand Theft Auto was deliberately centered around crime? ) It's very well documented how they marketed the game here, and how they were going for maximum controversy (even if it wasn't intended in the original game design -- I've no idea whether it was or not).

You've skipped my other points, though.

Edited March 27, 2011 by ThunderPeel2001

[Tanukitsune]

Can't say I'd agree his English is fine!

I certainly understand BBX's and Orvidos's points, Tanu. I don't think it's fair to just point at BBX and blame it all on him.

Once again, you skimmed the thread, now that he's admitted he's not the only person trolling me, I can blame only him anymore, can I?

Think of it this way, as a simple psychology 101 thing, what happens when a person is being trolled? Is this person calm or nervous? If this person is getting nervous do you think he's more or less likely to make mistakes?

The trolling is getting to me, my hands are shaking, I'm trying to be as reasonable and rational as I can, but I am kinda being attacked by an anonymous troll I can't do nothing about, I'm trying to be calm, but if every post I make gets trolled anonymously, you can understand I feel a little hunted and nervous?

I've been here for years and nobody has complained about my lack of understanding before, if this is about sarcasm and "joking around" then the troll should know you can't read sarcastic tones or a joking tone of voice.

The rest I've done are simple mistakes everybody else has made, once again stop being biased! You just made a mistake the troll would have eaten me alive for how is my understand of the English language worse for making mistakes that don't really have to with English? Skimming a topic, misinterpreting and misjudging is universal, not only to every language but to all mankind!

[ThunderPeel2001]

Once again, you skimmed the thread, now that he's admitted he's not the only person trolling me, I can blame only him anymore, can I?

Think of it this way, as a simple psychology 101 thing, what happens when a person is being trolled? Is this person calm or nervous? If this person is getting nervous do you think he's more or less likely to make mistakes?

The trolling is getting to me, my hands are shaking, I'm trying to be as reasonable and rational as I can, but I am kinda being attacked by an anonymous troll I can't do nothing about, I'm trying to be calm, but if every post I make gets trolled anonymously, you can understand I feel a little hunted and nervous?

I've been here for years and nobody has complained about my lack of understanding before, if this is about sarcasm and "joking around" then the troll should know you can't read sarcastic tones or a joking tone of voice.

The rest I've done are simple mistakes everybody else has made, once again stop being biased! You just made a mistake the troll would have eaten me alive for how is my understand of the English language worse for making mistakes that don't really have to with English? Skimming a topic, misinterpreting and misjudging is universal, not only to every language but to all mankind!

I'll ignore the bits I didn't understand and just say: There's no need to let it get to you so much. I think as long as everything is out in the open, and it's calm and people aren't attacking each other, then there's no reason why mutual understanding can't be reached. Right?

[Chris]

Sure. Which part? (I hope you're not asking me to prove that a game called Grand Theft Auto was deliberately centered around crime? ) It's very well documented how they marketed the game here, and how they were going for maximum controversy (even if it wasn't intended in the original game design -- I've no idea whether it was or not).

You've skipped my other points, though.

Any part that isn't self-evident. I specifically referred to your accusations about the developers' motives. You're obviously being deliberately obtuse by asking if I'm demanding evidence that Grand Theft Auto is about crime. Don't accuse people of being childish, and then act childish.

There's a difference between claiming something is "about crime" (an objective fact) and that something is a "base and childish cash-in" (a presumably speculative accusation about motive).

[Tanukitsune]

I'll ignore the bits I didn't understand and just say: There's no need to let it get to you so much. I think as long as everything is out in the open, and it's calm and people aren't attacking each other, then there's no reason why mutual understanding can't be reached. Right?

Well, we all seem to be in more agreeable and in a sensible state now, but the fact is there is still an anonymous troll, I can try the whole ignoring him and I hope it will actually work this time... I was doing quite well ignoring him until now.

(How childish would it be to abuse the tag limit to prevent tag abuse?)

[CaptainFish]

I finally read the Blue Sky link (I thought I could pick up what it meant through context).

It doesn't seem to be a great metric because it just focuses on anti-urban setting games. Their manifesto decries games like Saint's Row, but doesn't really comment on homogeneous shooter design. I understand that it's old, but it doesn't actually describe the position in a useful way. It reads like the kind of statements that try to discredit one style of game in favour of others. The music statement is incredibly troubling, especially with the way hip hop is dismissed as a music form by many game enthusiasts. Hip hop didn't make the first Tony Hawk games less "happy".

I don't like that page as a basis for discussion.

[Orv]

Ah, hmm, I think I see what you're driving at now Tanu.

That said, having read the link, I don't entirely believe that the things he wants are possible for 'adult' video games. His choice of PoP:TtT kind of derails his argument fairly badly, I think, because yes, it ends up alright (how could it not?), but unlike Warrior Within, it's 'dark' without being 'emo'. And now I'm talking in circles.

Look at his list of "helpful suggestions"

- Change everything that's grey into blue.

- From now on, everyone wears red shoes.

- Make everything happen at midday or sunset.

- Replace gun textures with banana textures.

- Turn all cars into pink convertibles that wobble and only do 15mph.

- If you get 100 of anything, a little tune plays.

- Instead of saying "crew" say "your buddies".

- Instead of saying "hood" say "zone".

- Make the female characters something other than prostitutes.

- Make the black characters something other than drug dealers.

What? Would anyone on this board honestly play this game for any length of time, based solely on this criteria? (Mind you, not all of the criteria has to be in a single game.)

I'm almost tempted to say the fellow who made the page is either a troll or out of his gourd. I really can't agree with anything he's saying. I like a bit of grit and nuance to my games these days. And if I play something generally cheerful (Majesty 2 for instance) it's generally for nostalgia purposes or a break from "Murder-Death-Kill" games. Which don't bother me unless the story is appropriately gritty to make me think about what my character is doing, therefor debasing the whole idea.

Sorry Tanu, I can't say that an adult game can be purely happy. TP had a good point in that we want more nuanced and thoughtful stories/worlds to muck about in as we grow older. L.A. Noire probably would have bored our socks off as children, for instance.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Orvidos

[Twig]

I would argue that Bulletstorm is kind of "feel good" and/or "blue sky" in that it (intentionally) goes so far beyond grimdark/offensive/whatever that it becomes humorous.

Duke Nukem is kind of the same, but much less so, oddly. Although I've only ever seen previews of either game. Haven't played 'em.

[miffy495]

I think it's important to remember in all of this that UK Resistance is/was (haven't checked it in a couple of years now) a comedy site and that though the "Why aren't games happier?" question was probably meant in earnest, the specifics of the article were intended to induce chuckles/make people think of Sonic the Hedgehog.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Any part that isn't self-evident. I specifically referred to your accusations about the developers' motives. You're obviously being deliberately obtuse by asking if I'm demanding evidence that Grand Theft Auto is about crime. Don't accuse people of being childish, and then act childish.

There's a difference between claiming something is "about crime" (an objective fact) and that something is a "base and childish cash-in" (a presumably speculative accusation about motive).

I wasn't being deliberately obtuse. I had no idea what you were referring to. By saying the "developers motives" you could have been talking about anything from my post.

For example; Did DMA deliberately choose "crime" as the subject of their game? I can easily say that that's what the game turned out to be about, but it crossed my mind that you might be saying to me that I couldn't be sure that's what their original motives for making the game were.

Especially when you had made statements like: "[The developers decided to make] a game about crime in a modern urban city."

Then I thought you were referring to the marketing of the game, where I said it was the developers' hope that they were going to sell copies based on how "controversial" it was. Again, I wasn't sure if you were asking me to prove that the UK marketing had that motive.

I honestly didn't know, so I asked.

It turns out you were talking about something else. Apparently what you were hung up on was the following sentence:

"It was not a mature exploration of ["crime in a modern urban city"], it was a base and childish cash-in [of Hollywood-style crime]."

To be honest I'm still not completely sure where the point of contention lays. Are you trying to say that Grand Theft Auto wasn't an attempt at giving players the chance to partake in things they'd only seen in movies? And in a very base way. Things like; Bank robberies, assassinations, car chases, and organized crime syndicates.

I think it's self-evident from the marketing and gameplay that that's precisely what they were trying to do.

Edited March 28, 2011 by ThunderPeel2001

[miffy495]

Hey look, DMA's original intent.

Sorry, I know this is kind of glib, but this thread is turning into two separate and increasingly personal arguments occurring simultaneously and I feel the need to deflate things a bit. Nobody hates anybody here, dig? Let's all take a deep breath folks.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Hey look, DMA's original intent.

I don't even think DMA's original intent was what he was referring to. I've tried to steer my response away from personal attacks, at least.