Blue sky in American games?

[Nappi]

I never actually said that only US games are the top sales actually.

I wasn't saying you had. I was making a point.

[Chris]

Janky but super hardcore games for hardcore PC gamers doesn't sound that specific, you have to be hardcore to put up with a janky game and many of them come out on 360 and/or PS3.

Also, janky but super hardcore PC games for hardcore PC gamers sounds like the definition of Touhou Project a PC bullet game series from Japan, many of the bullet hells that are coming out were originally PC games, actually.

Not really the same thing. The "jankiness" associated with these kinds of hardcore PC games is generally the result of massive numbers of player-driven systems interacting in unpredictable ways, combined with likely very lax QA procedures to often create a buggy mess.

Games like STALKER exemplify this. That game isn't hardcore because it's difficult, it's hardcore because it's so incredibly complicated in terms of the sheer amount of it there is--in terms of volume of systems, depth of systems, and straight content.

[Tanukitsune]

I haven't played STALKER yet, but I assume Risen and Gothic are good examples too? Arcanum and Fallout have the depth and complexity you speak of, but they put more time and / or resources to make them less "janky", although I think I get what you mean.

While "janky" hardcore PC games from Japan have a little depth, it's usually in the scoring system or general gameplay and all you get from this "depth" is a better score.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I'd hate to sour this thread, but the anonymous tag troll is being so derping and "Lulzy" I have to call him out....

You're seriously calling me a troll? U JELLY?

--lots of stuff deleted--

Sorry, just a note this "troll" malarkey: Firstly, I didn't add the "undercover troll" thing, and I don't think I've ever added "tanu doesn't get it" to a thread, either. But I do see why someone might think of you as trolling, the way these discussions tend to go.

A typical example, for me, seems to go like this:

Poster #1: I saw the new Die Hard at the cinema last night. It was amazing!

Poster #2: Did you see the special director's cut or the normal cut?

Poster #1: I didn't know there was a special director's cut...?

Poster #2: No, I meant: Is there one? And if there is, did you see it?

Poster #1: I just saw the version in the theater, like I said.

Poster #2: So you didn't see the special director's cut?

Or in this discussion which went something like this:

Poster #3: Why do loads of Japanese games have "blue skies"?

Poster #4: Give me an example of these Japanese games of which you speak.

Poster #3: They're too obscure to mention.

(At which point I stopped reading -- although I skimmed and saw the "troll" thing.)

Obviously this discussion has kept plenty of people here entertained (it's just reached its third page), so maybe I'm in a minority, but I can understand why someone might think you're trolling.

[Tanukitsune]

Sorry, just a note this "troll" malarkey: Firstly, I didn't add the "undercover troll" thing, and I don't think I've ever added "tanu doesn't get it" to a thread, either. But I do see why someone might think of you as trolling, the way these discussions tend to go.

A typical example, for me, seems to go like this:

Poster #1: I saw the new Die Hard at the cinema last night. It was amazing!

Poster #2: Did you see the special director's cut or the normal cut?

Poster #1: I didn't know there was a special director's cut...?

Poster #2: No, I meant: Is there one? And if there is, did you see it?

Poster #1: I just saw the version in the theater, like I said.

Poster #2: So you didn't see the special director's cut?

Or in this discussion which went something like this:

Poster #3: Why do loads of Japanese games have "blue skies"?

Poster #4: Give me an example of these Japanese games of which you speak.

Poster #3: They're too obscure to mention.

(At which point I stopped reading -- although I skimmed and saw the "troll" thing.)

Obviously this discussion has kept plenty of people here entertained (it's just reached its third page), so maybe I'm in a minority, but I can understand why someone might think you're trolling.

Well, it's mostly the obscure stuff nobody cares or hears about.

(cut)

Tokobot, Gurumin, Brave Story, Adventures to Go, Hexyz Force, Half Minute Hero, Gensan...

I actually did mention them...

If people think I'm trying to be a "hipster", I wouldn't say "you don't care", I'd say "you wouldn't get it" and if I was hipster, I'd set myself on fire.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I actually did mention them...

As I said, I stopped reading when you wrote they were too obscure to mention.

If people think I'm trying to be a "hipster", I wouldn't say "you don't care", I'd say "you wouldn't get it" and if I was hipster, I'd set myself on fire.

This is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Who mentioned "hipsters"??

[Ben X]

This is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Who mentioned "hipsters"??

Tanu does not seem to get it.

I wonder when he will.

[Tanukitsune]

As I said, I stopped reading when you wrote they were too obscure to mention.

This is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Who mentioned "hipsters"??

You didn't, but if you stop reading when I say "too obscure" what else am I supposed to think?

I'm not the only one here who misread others posts here, but I do seem to be the only one called out for it...

Tanu does not seem to get it.

I wonder when he will.

No, I don't....

I don't think I want to.

[ThunderPeel2001]

You didn't, but if you stop reading when I say "too obscure" what else am I supposed to think?

The point wasn't that you would said they were too obscure (and therefore imply you were being pretentious), the point was that [it seemed] as though you weren't prepared to follow up your own initial question, and instead wanted to take it somewhere else, in a different direction.

You may as well have said, "I've forgotten their titles" or "No, I don't want to". It's got nothing to do with you saying they were obscure.

I've gotten so used to seeing this that I didn't even bother to finish reading your post. Of course, as it turns out, I was very wrong in this instance. Apologies.

You often ask why you get a lot of crap, and sarcastic responses, and so I'm trying to explain to you why, as I see it.

[Tanukitsune]

The point wasn't that you would said they were too obscure (and therefore imply you were being pretentious), the point was that [it seemed] as though you weren't prepared to follow up your own initial question, and instead wanted to take it somewhere else, in a different direction.

You may as well have said, "I've forgotten their titles" or "No, I don't want to". It's got nothing to do with you saying they were obscure.

I've gotten so used to seeing this that I didn't even bother to finish reading your post. Of course, as it turns out, I was very wrong in this instance. Apologies.

You often ask why you get a lot of crap, and sarcastic responses, and so I'm trying to explain to you why, as I see it.

No need to apologize, I can see what people might have thought I was being pretentious, I guess the troll only read the first line too...

I'm at fault too, I guess I might feel like people don't care about Japanese games when people actually don't seem to care. I can't help but to say things like "you wouldn't care", specially when I made a post or two that was basically "Tanu is overly excited about Japanese games" and the overall reaction was "Whatever"...

A pretentious person or a hipster doesn't want you to play, let's say... Silhouette Mirage? They think you don't deserve it, or that you wouldn't get it, I really REALLY would like you guys to check it out... (Seriously guys, GET THIS GAME! )

[ThunderPeel2001]

No need to apologize, I can see what people might have thought I was being pretentious, I guess the troll only read the first line too...

I'm at fault too, I guess I might feel like people don't care about Japanese games when people actually don't seem to care. I can't help but to say things like "you wouldn't care", specially when I made a post or two that was basically "Tanu is overly excited about Japanese games" and the overall reaction was "Whatever"...

A pretentious person or a hipster doesn't want you to play, let's say... Silhouette Mirage? They think you don't deserve it, or that you wouldn't get it, I really REALLY would like you guys to check it out... (Seriously guys, GET THIS GAME! )

Are you being serious? Are you genuinely attempting to troll here? Because it reads like a giant troll dump.

I just said it had nothing to do with you being seen as pretentious.

[Tanukitsune]

Are you being serious? You just said why people might think I was being pretentious!

The point wasn't that you would said they were too obscure (and therefore imply you were being pretentious), the point was that [it seemed] as though you weren't prepared to follow up your own initial question, and instead wanted to take it somewhere else, in a different direction.

EDIT: It looks like I didn't read your post right.... My mistake...

[Ben X]

Fuuuuuucking hell. I just had to add a 'tdngi' tag in response to that. Tanu, either you're trolling or your reading comprehension skills are absolutely dire.

[Tanukitsune]

Fuuuuuucking hell. I just had to add a 'tdngi' tag in response to that. Tanu, either you're trolling or your reading comprehension skills are absolutely dire.

Half the posts here are people "not getting" what the others said or misreading, misjudging, etc, etc...

I'm not the only one who makes mistakes here, and I'm not the only one to admit them, but why are you only calling me out on them?

Also, you practically just admitted that you are trolling me, that TDNGI wasn't there 5 seconds before!

If you so seriously think I'm mentally handicapped, then why do you point and laugh instead of pointing and correcting?

[ThunderPeel2001]

If you so seriously think I'm mentally handicapped, then why do you point and laugh instead of pointing and correcting?

Just to offer some mediation:

Tanu, he never said anything about being "mentally handicapped" he said, "reading comprehension". The second does not imply the first. Plus, I'm pretty sure you've said in the past that English is a second language to you, right?

[Twig]

I'm going to do something incredibly out of character for me and pretend this whole hilarious tangent isn't happening.

Weren't you trying to say that Europe has influence on other developers, even Japan?

No. I'm saying that "Western" games as a whole include BOTH American AND European games, and that you can't just say Japanese developers, when attempting to cater to Western audiences, are exclusively emulating American games.

The other point that I am trying to get across is that American and European games are not so different as to be necessarily separately categorized, with some exceptions - such as the previously-mentioned jankcore, which Chris did a pretty good job of describing.

For simplicity's sake, I am going to consider those hardcore PC games a different "genre" from what a Japanese developer would typically emulate. They might go after GTA or Gears of War or what-have-you (though I can't think of any specific examples), but they won't necessarily go after Madden.

Similarly, you can find plenty of Japanese genres that Western developers never try to emulate (most notably the visual novel nonsense that are so popular over there), and plenty that they do emulate, or at least draw inspiration from.

[Tanukitsune]

Just to offer some mediation:

Tanu, he never said anything about being "mentally handicapped" he said, "reading comprehension". The second does not imply the first. Plus, I'm pretty sure you've said in the past that English is a second language to you, right?

I actually just made the same mistake you did, my brain switched off when you said "and therefore imply you were being pretentious" and then I made the post, and then I realized what I stupid mistake I made and edited the post...

And I was born in Canada, although I moved to Spain when I was very little, so I might actually have the reading skills of a 5 year old.

If I am actually making mistakes laughing at me won't help, I don't think I have problems reading, I can make mistakes when I skim instead of reading thoroughly, but everybody here has made that mistake at least once!

I'm going to do something incredibly out of character for me and pretend this whole hilarious tangent isn't happening.

No. I'm saying that "Western" games as a whole include BOTH American AND European games, and that you can't just say Japanese developers, when attempting to cater to Western audiences, are exclusively emulating American games.

The other point that I am trying to get across is that American and European games are not so different as to be necessarily separately categorized, with some exceptions - such as the previously-mentioned jankcore, which Chris did a pretty good job of describing.

For simplicity's sake, I am going to consider those hardcore PC games a different "genre" from what a Japanese developer would typically emulate. They might go after GTA or Gears of War or what-have-you (though I can't think of any specific examples), but they won't necessarily go after Madden.

Similarly, you can find plenty of Japanese genres that Western developers never try to emulate (most notably the visual novel nonsense that are so popular over there), and plenty that they do emulate, or at least draw inspiration from.

I'm pretty sure someone said something like that before and I agreed, but with this mess of a thread who knows.

Yes, I can see that both sides have "genres" they know don't appeal to the other side and I can see that European and American games are similar enough to be considered the same...

[CaptainFish]

I agree that I would be hard pressed to determine the country/region of origin of most Western games by how they play alone.

I'm wondering how gore factors into this. When I think of gore I think of excessive blood, guts and bones appearing in response to some violence. However, this is often used to create a silly effect. When a character is gibbed in TF2, DeathSpank or Splosion Man it's for a cartoonish effect. This is in opposition to the idea of grit, or realistic trappings in games. Save for key moments in Dead Space 2 and Kane & Lynch 2 games rarely attempt to reach Un Chien Andalou's use of gore, where it is grounded in realism and disturbing as a result. (Maybe a lot of games try for the Black Hawk Down approach, but I don't play military shooters very often)

In terms of depressing worlds, that can appear in Japanese games as well. Dragon Quest 8 was a huge example of this for me. Despite the bright colours inherent to the animé style, most of that game is your characters following in the murderous wake of the villian, unable to save his victims. Even the beautiful Odin Sphere deals with loss and sadness in a very up front way. I think it's important to differentiate aesthetics from world building. I don't think Borderlands counts as more of a "blue sky" game than Fallout because it uses a more cartoony art style.

I don't play most of them, but from the outside it seems there is significant "blue sky" development in the MMORPG genre. Champions, City of Heroes, World of Warcraft, Star Trek Online, Guild Wars and Rift seem to marry bright art and hopeful world design.

Other games that spring to mind include Civilization 4 and 5 and Torchlight.

[elmuerte]

You're examples all aim for the cartoonish look. Most games that go for photorealism do resort to diarrhea skies rather than blue skies.

But luckily we have games like Enslaved or Bulletstorm that go for photorealism, but include colors.

At least the game industry hasn't reached the current low of the movie industry with their Orange & Teal crap.

[Ben X]

Half the posts here are people "not getting" what the others said or misreading, misjudging, etc, etc...

I'm not the only one who makes mistakes here, and I'm not the only one to admit them, but why are you only calling me out on them?

Also, you practically just admitted that you are trolling me, that TDNGI wasn't there 5 seconds before!

If you so seriously think I'm mentally handicapped, then why do you point and laugh instead of pointing and correcting?

The answer is troll, then...

Edited March 27, 2011 by bbX1138

[CaptainFish]

You're examples all aim for the cartoonish look. Most games that go for photorealism do resort to diarrhea skies rather than blue skies.

But luckily we have games like Enslaved or Bulletstorm that go for photorealism, but include colors.

At least the game industry hasn't reached the current low of the movie industry with their Orange & Teal crap.

That's true. In terms of just art, Assassin's Creed, Kane & Lynch 1 & 2, Cryostasis, Lead & Gold, Bully, and Alpha Protocol have more realistically depicted settings that aren't afraid to have color.

[Orv]

At least the games industry hasn't reached the current low of the movie industry with their Orange & Teal crap.

Tanu, I would like to say that, you make very odd debates, at times. Not to be mean, mind you. You just stick to odd points, or have very specific regulations for an idea. Again, not to be a dick, you just seem to have very odd criteria for some of your ideas, which is why I've sort of avoided voicing an opinion here. I don't quite get what you're looking for.

[Twig]

Lead & Gold is a surprisingly pretty game, in no small part due to its willingness to have color, instead of being the stereotypical brown 'n' dusty Western wasteland. It's a shame it never caught. I really like that game, and I'm beyond sick of TF2, which I never thought would happen. ):

Part of it, I suppose, is that it's got only 12 people per server, and didn't have dedicated servers to begin with, and even now, the server browser kind of sucks. It's got a kind of jank to it, but in a different way from the Eastern European games discussed earlier. Jank in a multiplayer game is so much worse than jank in a singleplayer game. Ahh.

Jank is a fun word to say. U:

But that has nothing to do with blue skies or whatever. So ends this tangent.

[Tanukitsune]

You're examples all aim for the cartoonish look. Most games that go for photorealism do resort to diarrhea skies rather than blue skies.

But luckily we have games like Enslaved or Bulletstorm that go for photorealism, but include colors.

At least the game industry hasn't reached the current low of the movie industry with their Orange & Teal crap.

Are you talking about the games at the site or the Japanese games I mentioned?

I did mention before that by "blue sky games" I meant more happy and positive? Blue sky is just the slogan the site uses to promote these kind of games.

I haven't played Enslaved, so I wouldn't know if it counts, but Bulletstorm definitely does not.

Hmm, I can't think of any Japanese game that does photorealism in general, unless you count the Metal Gear 4 game, all the rest has at least some anime in their look.

The site does mention Prince of Persia, which some think shouldn't be there, but I think that since the transformation the Prince goes through, if we ignore the emo one, gives a very positive message, he stops being a jerk, learns to care more for his people than his revenge and in the end, he learns that sometimes you have to learn from you mistakes instead or erasing them.

The answer is troll, then...

You really think I'm making mistakes on purpose just to upset people? That's utter nonsense! Why wouldn't anybody find that humorous!

"HA HA! I did that mistake on purpose and now everybody thinks I'm a dullard! But I'm not! HILARIOUS!"

Then why the hell am I asking for help? Is that part of what the sick little game trolls play?

"OMG! They actually feel bad and want to help me! THE IDIOTS!"

If you seriously think I'm that sick, I SERIOUSLY demand an apology!

Of course, I'm sure the sick little monsters game includes asking for an apology, right? Everything to a troll is trick or a ploy to confuse, annoy and anger the others, do really think I'm that sick and devious? Do you really think I find such things amusing?

Then why are you constantly picking on me for my mistakes? Is calling me out on my mistakes and at the same time saying I'm doing them on purpose to be a troll another sick troll game?

Tanu, I would like to say that, you make very odd debates, at times. Not to be mean, mind you. You just stick to odd points, or have very specific regulations for an idea. Again, not to be a dick, you just seem to have very odd criteria for some of your ideas, which is why I've sort of avoided voicing an opinion here. I don't quite get what you're looking for.

The only mistake I made here was thinking people would actually check the site before forming an opinion.

I'm not here saying "this is fact", I'm here saying "what's this all about? What do you think?"

The reason this thread seems so odd is because we are dealing with concepts that might not actually exist in any place by my mind or yours.

Some think there is a European style of gaming, some think it's just mostly Western and Eastern and considering the fact that we're having so much trouble pinning down what the European style is, I'm now in the Western and Eastern side.

If anything seems odd it's because we haven't pinned down the concept of "happy blue sky game", I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but I'm not here saying "THIS IS WHAT A HAPPY GAME IS!", I'm here saying "Let's try to figure out what a happy game really is!".

At this moment, I'm debating whether a "happy game" is just a "kids" game or if more adult games can be "happy" too.

[elmuerte]

Are you talking about the games at the site or the Japanese games I mentioned?

No, I was responding to the list of games CaptainFish mentioned.

I haven't played Enslaved, so I wouldn't know if it counts, but Bulletstorm definitely does not.

What do you mean it does not? Bulletstorm has blue skies and is overall quite colorful (but it's not an American game, as PCF is Polish). Or did I miss some part of the discussion?