Sony NGP (PSP 2)

[pabosher]

The PS3 wa affordable too, don't forget. You just had to get a second job - isn't that right, Kaz?

[miffy495]

Explanation by example. Let's compare two handheld games: GTA Liberty City Stories (PSP), GTA Chinatown Wars (DS/PSP).

LCS was basically GTA3 on a handheld (different city layout, story, but same mechanics). Playing it involved 5 minutes of boot up time. Then you'd walk to a mission... loading... watch a 2 minute cutscene... loading... play the mission for 5 minutes, and upon completing it, you'd have to go back to your safe house, GTA3 style, to save the game ... another 5 minutes. My commutes would involve almost finishing a mission.

CW boots up instantly & you can save whenever. The cutscenes are short and punchy. The missions cut away all the fat. If you drove from x to y once, you don't need to do it again. Larger missions are split up by checkpoints. There's plenty going on in the streets, so even if you have 2 minutes, you can advance a bit.

Is LCS a deeper game than CW? Nope. Is CW dumbed down? No, in fact, it probably has more content than LCS. The difference is that CW cuts away all the filler, gets you in the game quickly, and lets you get out whenever. It's not about a 5-10 minute experience. It's about an experience that can scale from 5 minutes to a couple of hours.

This. Also, what I said about the differences in design between Persona 3 Portable and Final Fantasy IV on the DS. Both are huge JRPGs which I have put more than 20 hours into at this point, but one is much more portable-friendly. It's not a question of whether the game is huge and engrossing or not, it's a question of allowing your players the chance to put it down when real life calls. Presumably real life will call now and then when you're playing a portable game.

[syntheticgerbil]

That price quote makes me pretty uncomfortable Kolzig. I'm guessing what is going to happen here for me will be like the first PSP. I'm not keen on paying a bunch of money for handheld devices. The cost has really gotten ridiculous where a handheld is rivaling the price for a current console.

I only just bought a PSP last year while snapping up games I knew I wanted to play about 3 years before that during sales. The main reason I finally bought a PSP is I was had a 20% off of anything coupon at a local video game store and bought a PSP-2000 used (which should have better screens anyway), making it somewhere around the balpark of $75 from what I remember. Expensive hardware sucks and I believe it keeps a certain amount of the general population from ever experiencing good games... well, except in the case of the 3DO.

So I imagine this release will be some ludicrous pricepoint and in order to play Uncharted, I may have to wait 3 years for a deal of something.

But yeah, it should be a nice experience. I have no complaints about the original PSP myself. I think it's a nice visual treat in terms of handhelds as well as what it can handle.

[Cigol]

Honest question here, do you own a PSP? I ask because I know it sounds like a good idea, but as I'm a part of the same niche and I play tonnes of handheld games, I can tell you that it's not a good idea.

Yeah I own a PSP. It's a good idea with good games.

Design-wise, it doesn't make sense to port PS3-esque games to the NGP. Just like it didn't make sense to port PS2-esque games to the PSP.

I think it makes even more sense this time around thanks to the abundance of control inputs. They still don't have like for like but depending on the game in question they should be able to get around that by using one of the new inputs. A portable Demon Souls, Noby Noby Boy.... Whatever... to me that sounds great when you couple it with the traditional fare.

This. Also, what I said about the differences in design between Persona 3 Portable and Final Fantasy IV on the DS. Both are huge JRPGs which I have put more than 20 hours into at this point, but one is much more portable-friendly. It's not a question of whether the game is huge and engrossing or not, it's a question of allowing your players the chance to put it down when real life calls. Presumably real life will call now and then when you're playing a portable game.

It's called sleep mode, I use it all the time. Now if you're talking about certain games not having appropriate saving mechanisms then fair enough, but it's worth noting how people complained about the saving mechanism in the original Persona 3 on PS2 only for P3P to actually improve upon it. I can't say I've ever come stuck myself since as I said I usually just hit the sleep button but then I'm also the sort of person if he's going to play games, whether it's on the handheld or big screen, I'm going to really play them. I don't get this need for gaming sessions that last only 5 minutes or so since I personally just wouldn't bother (or would use my phone). This argument against games which are perhaps better suited to a proper dedicated session is flawed in my opinion. The PSP caters for both.

I also don't take the argument comparing CW and LCS - to begin with GTA used to be widely criticised for it's control scheme and formula on the bigger consoles, and you have to give some leeway in expecting them to take advantage of the PSP's ability to render the game in full 3D and port the 'real experience'. It would be better instead to consider games like God of War which made an almost flawless transition to the small screen. Success stories like that might be dwarfed by the amount of lazy porting, but they aren't to be ignored. There are some good ports of bigger games - and if you don't have a console other than the PSP I'm sure they are appreciated far more.

In truth I'm more interested in games of the Nippon Ichi variety, but the PSP and the PSP2 by extension will be capable of all sorts - the increased performance and new control inputs can potentially make it even more interesting and varied too. Price will obviously be a factor but it's probably best to wait anyway since then you have a greater selection of games to choose from.

[syntheticgerbil]

It's called sleep mode, I use it all the time. Now if you're talking about certain games not having appropriate saving mechanisms then fair enough, but it's worth noting how people complained about the saving mechanism in the original Persona 3 on PS2 only for P3P to actually improve upon it. I can't say I've ever come stuck myself since as I said I usually just hit the sleep button but then I'm also the sort of person if he's going to play games, whether it's on the handheld or big screen, I'm going to really play them. I don't get this need for gaming sessions that last only 5 minutes or so since I personally just wouldn't bother (or would use my phone). This argument against games which are perhaps better suited to a proper dedicated session is flawed in my opinion. The PSP caters for both.

Well, I've actually had problems with the sleep mode as sometimes you might find the PSP has died too quickly as you didn't get back to the game in time, making your progress lost. This doesn't happen often and I'm pretty aware of it now, but it's not exactly akin to a quicksave or short bursts.

[Cigol]

Well, I've actually had problems with the sleep mode as sometimes you might find the PSP has died too quickly as you didn't get back to the game in time, making your progress lost. This doesn't happen often and I'm pretty aware of it now, but it's not exactly akin to a quicksave or short bursts.

Are you on about leaving it in sleep mode and then coming back to find its battery charge has gone? Because I've left mine in sleep mode for about a week and come back to it with charge enough to resume the game. Besides if you make a point of topping it up each night I don't see how you can fall foul of that. Not to say that more effort from developers in tailoring the games to the platforms strengths and weaknesses wouldn't be appreciated, of course.

[SiN]

Yeah I own a PSP. It's a good idea with good games.

Sorry, you misunderstood. I think the PSP is a good platform overall. What I think is a bad idea is dual analog sticks.

It's called sleep mode, I use it all the time.

On my PSP-1000 sleep mode wouldn't survive a work day. I seem to recall playing 20 mins of LCS on the subway, going to work, and then coming home on a dead battery.

I don't get this need for gaming sessions that last only 5 minutes or so since I personally just wouldn't bother (or would use my phone). This argument against games which are perhaps better suited to a proper dedicated session is flawed in my opinion. The PSP caters for both.

Sure, 5 mins is a bit short. But again, I used my PSP on 20 minute subway rides on a near-daily basis, and found it wasn't up for the challenge. The old joke used to be, "I can turn on the DS and play a full game of Meteos in the time it takes the PSP to load a Wipeout level" When 5-7 minutes of your 20 minute commute are consumed in loading & cutscenes, that's a bit fail.

I also don't take the argument comparing CW and LCS - to begin with GTA used to be widely criticised for it's control scheme and formula on the bigger consoles, and you have to give some leeway in expecting them to take advantage of the PSP's ability to render the game in full 3D and port the 'real experience'. It would be better instead to consider games like God of War which made an almost flawless transition to the small screen. Success stories like that might be dwarfed by the amount of lazy porting, but they aren't to be ignored. There are some good ports of bigger games - and if you don't have a console other than the PSP I'm sure they are appreciated far more.

Two points: (1) There's no reason why GTA on the PSP couldn't do both: render the game in full 3D for the 'real experience' AND have features to make the game more portable friendly. I wouldn't call CW a stripped down game by any means.

(2) I haven't played GoW, but I'll take your word for it. It's a good port. But if I'm buying a system, there better be an abundance of good games for it. Comparing my DS collection to my PSP collection, it's no contest. Even at this point, if you're not into JRPGs (I'm not), I wouldn't call the selection of great PSP games huge.

[Tanukitsune]

No contest? What does the DS have that's so great? Mine has been collecting dust for ages!

The PSP would be the system I'd take to a desert island! (Unless they'd let me take a PC with a ton of "NOT" emulators)

[miffy495]

It's called sleep mode, I use it all the time. Now if you're talking about certain games not having appropriate saving mechanisms then fair enough, but it's worth noting how people complained about the saving mechanism in the original Persona 3 on PS2 only for P3P to actually improve upon it. I can't say I've ever come stuck myself since as I said I usually just hit the sleep button but then I'm also the sort of person if he's going to play games, whether it's on the handheld or big screen, I'm going to really play them. I don't get this need for gaming sessions that last only 5 minutes or so since I personally just wouldn't bother (or would use my phone). This argument against games which are perhaps better suited to a proper dedicated session is flawed in my opinion. The PSP caters for both.

I too use sleep mode all the time. As I said P3P is on sleep mode all the fucking time because it doens't have a good save system that will let me actually turn the system off. In fact, my PSP is asleep in my pocket as I type this. It will probably need to remain asleep until Monday, as my girlfriend is picking me up from work and I don't play portables when I'm talking to her. I do however, have a 40 minute bus commute to work, and the PSP is what I mostly do during that. It is infuriating to get to work and have to put the thing to sleep instead of being able to turn it off. I have a PSP1000, and on the original battery it would not last through the work day like this. I later replaced the battery with the longer lasting one when Sony made those available. It will probably last until Tuesday or so thanks to this. I also don't have the chance to charge it every night. It's kind of a cop-out to say that poorly designed games are ok just because the console has a sleep function. That's not to say that all PSP games are like this, but I do notice it FAR more frequently on the PSP than the DS, and it seems symptomatic of the design mentality I described earlier. You're not entirely wrong in saying that the PSP caters to both, with things like GTA:CW and Half Minute Hero on there, but those are pretty much the only two that spring to mind from the last while, whereas the DS has a wealth of games of that type.

I believe the argument for portable games to be portable is a pretty valid one. As was said on the podcast at one point, if I'm sitting on my couch for a long gaming session and have the choice between (for example) playing the full-on PS3 Uncharted games or the PSP2/NGP Uncharted, why would I opt for the one which has to make sacrifices to get it to fit on a portable? That's not to say that those games can't be great. In the past 3 months I've played both God of War Ghost of Sparta and God of War 3, and vastly preferred the former, but I also played that on the bus (using sleep mode liberally again, as it too falls victim to the "not really that portable" thing) and didn't care to do so on my couch. You say later that success stories like God of War "aren't to be ignored" and I agree. There are some really fantastic games. I also think they fail at being portable experiences. I play them on my PSP begrudgingly, thinking of how nice it would be to chill on my couch and see it on my big screen. DS games I just love as DS games, without ever having to think about that.

The crux of my argument remains: Nintendo caters to the portable market with games that are designed to actually be portable. Sony caters to the hardcore crowd by making excellent hardcore games that aren't necessarily portable. As a transit commuter, I much prefer the ability to be able to actually turn off my system when my bus reaches the destination than to have to put it into sleep mode. There is also the issue of designing your games so that don't make you feel like you're missing out when you have to turn it off while still rewarding you when you turn it on. The games that make up the majority of the PSP's catalogue are great, but don't fit those needs. They also constantly make me think about how much nicer it would be on a PS3 or 360 rather than a portable, which would not be a problem if they were actually good portable games.

[Tanukitsune]

I don't think I get the concept of "portable" games... Why are Nintendo games more portable? Because they let you save whenever you want... They don't, so that's not it...

Because you can just close the lid to make it go to sleep mode? Like it's been said before, the PSP has a sleep mode too?

[Sully907]

I don't think I get the concept of "portable" games... Why are Nintendo games more portable? Because they let you save whenever you want... They don't, so that's not it...

Because you can just close the lid to make it go to sleep mode? Like it's been said before, the PSP has a sleep mode too?

Yea I agree with you man, it doesn't really make sense exactly what people want from these games. What's the problem playing a console style uncharted game on PSP2, because what, you'll only be able to make it through one or two checkpoints before you have to put the device away, instead of a whole level?

[miffy495]

Both have a sleep mode, but one feels much more necessary than the other. I'm not talking about every game on each system, but in general I'd feel much less slighted if the DS didn't have a sleep mode than I would if the PSP didn't. I use the DS's only very rarely, in most cases I'm able to power down whenever I need to and lose little to no progress, and also not feel like I'm going to have any difficultly coming back to it. On the PSP, if I couldn't put the system to sleep I would absolutely hate the thing because the games are just not designed to be playable in short bursts. That's not to say I haven't had marathon sessions on both systems, it's just that on the PSP they needed to be, whereas on the DS it was only because I was having too much fun to put them down. 10 minute cutscenes are also far more prevalent on one system. Guess which? Again, I really do like my PSP, and both types of games have their place. I just believe that the place of most PSP games would ideally not be on a portable system. It's not any one thing I can name as being what makes a game "portable," but when you compare the libraries of the two system it does start to become apparent that the games are designed with different people in mind. One goes for the larger, epic-sized experiences. The other for the short bursts of fun that I'm generally looking to a potable for. If you don't mind that PSP games aren't great at being bite-sized, that's a different issue. I'm certainly willing to look past it in order to have played a bunch of really great games on the system. Still, as I said, most of the really great games on the PSP I would have preferred to have played on a console, while the really great games on the DS I can't really imagine playing on anything else.

[Tanukitsune]

I can't think of any DS that could be played in "short" bursts... And the DS would have longer cutscenes if the system could handle them... Although I'm pretty sure modern DS JRPGs have long cutscenes...

I just don't get the "DS has less cutscenes and shorter times between save points and can be played in shorter bursts"... what are you playing? That doesn't sound like any of the games I've played on my DS!

[Noyb]

I can't think of any DS that could be played in "short" bursts...

Just on my shelf...

Manageable puzzles + quicksave: Picross, Picross 3D

Manageable puzzles + save between puzzles: Professor Layton series

Manageable levels + save between levels: Rhythm Heaven, Mario 64, New Super Mario Bros., Elite Beat Agents

Quicksave anywhere, tangible subgoals in larger context: Phoenix Wright

Manageable battles + quicksave in battle: Final Fantasy Tactics A2

[Tanukitsune]

Um, define "manageable"?

Because if you consider Mario 64 and New Super Mario Bros. "quick burst" games, then just most of my PSP shelf counts....

[Sully907]

not to mention naming a game like phoenix wright, where it takes you a good 30 seconds to navigate to and save, isn't a great example either. I could save just as easily on some PSP shooter game for "quick burst" play

[Noyb]

It's been so long since I've played it that I totally forgot you can't save after every level on NSMB.

Mario 64 felt like the average star time shouldn't be more than a half an hour, although this is coming from someone who has played the original before.

[Tanukitsune]

If half an hour is a "manageable" chunk, then yes, almost every game I have for PSP is more than "manageable"...

What on Earth do you play on PSP? Did they post Metal Gear Solid 4 for it and I never heard of it?

[syntheticgerbil]

Yea I agree with you man, it doesn't really make sense exactly what people want from these games. What's the problem playing a console style uncharted game on PSP2, because what, you'll only be able to make it through one or two checkpoints before you have to put the device away, instead of a whole level?

It's just the idea of a handheld system, as something that should have games that can be picked up and played during a car ride or on a lunch break, it's kind of odd to play it at home in long bursts when you might as well be playing a console. I can only think of illustrating it this way as a most recent example I encountered:

Metal Gear 2 for MSX is meant to be played at home. It's nonlinear in terms of exploration, meaning you can go anywhere to an extent from the beginning, but still linear in that nearly the whole game has tasks that must be done in order. The game allows a save at certain restore points, at least on the Subsistence version, but probably needs to be played more at a constant rate to fully grasp everything you need to complete, making it nice for at home play.

Metal Gear Solid for Game Boy Color is almost the same game system except with some minor control improvements. It is completed in a different manner though, split up into 13 stages that don't allow going back or forward once a stage is complete. While limiting, this makes the game ideal for handheld play because you are allowed a "reset" of your brain with each stage, no longer having to worry about traversing back to things you may have missed or having to remember a bunch of areas. So if you don't get back to the game in maybe a week or two weeks time, it won't be completely stressful.

Of course, I think Zelda games are the most glaring series that doesn't follow the handheld rules (I haven't played the last two on DS though, just all of the ones before), sort of needing you to keep track of large amount of areas that can make on the go playing very stressful if you don't maintain a constant rate of playing.

On the other hand, Locoroco shows exactly how to do this sort of handheld game on the PSP.

Both the DS and PSP have sleep functions though, I don't think either becomes a saving grace since it should be temporary. Quicksave helps for something more permanent and substantial.

[miffy495]

I'm away from home right now, so I can't look at my library, but I think the contrast between FFIV for DS and P3P for PSP is a pretty good look at the distinction. FFIV lets you quicksave any time that you're not in a battle, and with the exception of boss fights, battles typically resolve in under a minute. P3P only lets you save at specifically ordained points that, especially during a dungeon run, are at least a half hour of play apart. I actually don't think Mario 64 is a great portable game, but because it's a console port, I don't mind as much.

What's in my bag right now for the DS is Tetris (it's tetris, you can put it down whenever), Super Scribblenauts (1-5 minute levels that autosave whenever you complete them), FFIV (like I said, save anywhere that isn't in a battle), and Pokemon Gold (also save anywhere that isn't a battle). Contrast this with the last few games I played on PSP, which are Ghost of Sparta (save at predetermined checkpoints which are often placed right in the middle of doing something, leaving you feeling like you should have finished your task before stopping), Metal Gear Solid Portable Ops (20-30 minute levels with long cutscenes around them, no saving mid-mission), GTA Vice City Stories (GTA style, running from missions to safehouses and back, very unforgiving to quick plays), and now P3P (as described earlier). All of those are great games, but I think I would rather have played each of them on my PS3. That's not to say that the PSP does not have great portable experiences. Particularly the more indie stuff that you seem to go for, Tanu. But those are not the banner titles for the system. The titles that get associated with it by the gaming press and mainstream audiences. The ones that I named for both systems are games that are commonly thought of when thinking of the system, and I definitely think that the difference in design approaches is clear when you look at them like that.

[Tanukitsune]

I'm still not getting you? Do you just want Angry Birds 3D for the 3DS or what?

It's not "portable" if you half to remember too many things? Doesn't Pheonix Wright require you to remember EVERYTHING to solve the case? While Layton doesn't require you to remember anything, if you do, you can probably figure out the mystery before the game tells you...

If you just want brainless fun, then there are plenty of arcade/retro collections for the PSP that you probably beat on your lunch break or commute...

[miffy495]

I think the fact that I've said many times now that I'm playing Final freaking Fantasy on my DS speaks to my not just wanting Angry Birds. I've been using it as an example of how one could design a huge RPG to fit into the portable mentality. As in, I'll play for a bit, run a few levels of the dungeon I'm on, and then quicksave and turn off the system. It's a great way to condense the super-epic game experience into a portable constraint, and I've put over 20 hours into the game at this point by doing just that. Long, epic games can work fine, provided that they are compartmentalized. As long as I'm not feeling like I'm leaving some urgent task unfinished when I save and quit, I'm happy. God of War did that all the time, which was what I was trying to get at in the parentheses where I described its save system. It felt like every save point in that game was right before something important, and that the game was almost chiding me for not being hardcore enough to get to that bit right away. It's not that I feel I should be done everything when I save and put the system away, it's that I don't want anything immediate hanging over my head. It can be as simple as putting the save right after a boss fight rather than right before it, letting me feel like I've accomplished something and can take a break now.

As I've said, while there are plenty of Arcade/Retro things on the PSP, they're not the banner titles that represent the system to the world. The games that do that are not, as I take them, portable games.

[Tanukitsune]

So, the banner titles for the PSP like God of War and Monster Hunter aren't portable, but... Nintendos banner titles Super Mario and Zelda aren't portable either! Most "banner" titles are more "epic" and less portable and that even includes many iPhone games!

[pabosher]

I'm still not getting you? Do you just want Angry Birds 3D for the 3DS or what?

It's not "portable" if you half to remember too many things? Doesn't Pheonix Wright require you to remember EVERYTHING to solve the case? While Layton doesn't require you to remember anything, if you do, you can probably figure out the mystery before the game tells you...

If you just want brainless fun, then there are plenty of arcade/retro collections for the PSP that you probably beat on your lunch break or commute...

PW doesn't really require you remember EVERYTHING. Just play it regularly enough so that you don't FORGET everything.

[Tanukitsune]

PW doesn't really require you remember EVERYTHING. Just play it regularly enough so that you don't FORGET everything.

That still makes not as portable as you guys claim it is, you have the clues, but YOU have to remember why the clue is important.