Point-and-Click Adventure Games, Today.

[Horticulture Tycoon]

Most of those late LEC adventure games still used the concepts behind iMuse well after the actual iMuse system had been phased out, I think. Curse of Monkey Island is the perfect example, like for example in the barber shop there's a single piece of music that has all these different variations that can play depending on which character you're talking to. But each of those different varations is a prerecorded track, and the game is simply choosing between a set of very similar pieces of music, as opposed to iMuse which dynamically adds and removes instruments on the fly. I'm pretty sure Full Throttle has some of that faux-iMuse in there, even if technically it's not using the iMuse system.

Really for all the attention iMuse gets, it was only actually used in, what? Three games? I know it was in MI2, and then in both X-Wing and TIE Fighter. Is that it? Is there a version of Sam and Max Hit the Road that used it?

[Nappi]

Really for all the attention iMuse gets, it was only actually used in, what? Three games? I know it was in MI2, and then in both X-Wing and TIE Fighter. Is that it? Is there a version of Sam and Max Hit the Road that used it?

I was under the impression it was used in every Lucasarts adventure game from Monkey Island 2 to.. I don't know. There is an iMuse logo at the back of the Curse of Monkey Island and Grim Fandango boxes as well.

Most people here know Lucasarts better than I do though, so I'll let them clear this up.

[Shakesbeard]

All I know is that iMuse is listed in the credits at the beginning of FT and I've noticed it on several occasions while playing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMUSE

[syntheticgerbil]

Really for all the attention iMuse gets, it was only actually used in, what? Three games? I know it was in MI2, and then in both X-Wing and TIE Fighter. Is that it? Is there a version of Sam and Max Hit the Road that used it?

But what's important is that it was used so well in Monkey Island 2.

[Chris]

Just want to chime in on this topic since it's pretty damn timely in my case, I've never really played adventure games but last night I spent about two hours playing what I have to guess is a fantastic introduction to the genre -

MOTHERFUCKIN' FULL THROTTLE

Oh hell yes. My favorite adventure game ever, and probably my favorite narrative ever in a video game.

Full Throttle is so goddamn good. The writing, artwork, and music in that game are so completely top-notch. And it's short enough that you can play through it again pretty easily. Man, so great.

Most of those late LEC adventure games still used the concepts behind iMuse well after the actual iMuse system had been phased out, I think. Curse of Monkey Island is the perfect example, like for example in the barber shop there's a single piece of music that has all these different variations that can play depending on which character you're talking to. But each of those different varations is a prerecorded track, and the game is simply choosing between a set of very similar pieces of music, as opposed to iMuse which dynamically adds and removes instruments on the fly. I'm pretty sure Full Throttle has some of that faux-iMuse in there, even if technically it's not using the iMuse system.

Really for all the attention iMuse gets, it was only actually used in, what? Three games? I know it was in MI2, and then in both X-Wing and TIE Fighter. Is that it? Is there a version of Sam and Max Hit the Road that used it?

Those later adventures didn't just use the "concepts behind iMuse," they used iMuse itself. You're just talking about the difference between MIDI and prerecorded tracks, not whether the audio engine was powered by iMuse. It supported both MIDI and recorded tracks. It was also used in X-Wing and TIE Fighter.

[Cheetohands]

Full Throttle... man I loved that game! Everything about it was just perfect. The atmosphere, art, story, characters, puzzles, everything! OK, now I need to go play it.

[syntheticgerbil]

Full Throttle... man I loved that game! Everything about it was just perfect. The atmosphere, art, story, characters, puzzles, everything! OK, now I need to go play it.

Be sure to put those yellow bunnies in the fan at the front of the semi!

[Horticulture Tycoon]

Those later adventures didn't just use the "concepts behind iMuse," they used iMuse itself. You're just talking about the difference between MIDI and prerecorded tracks, not whether the audio engine was powered by iMuse. It supported both MIDI and recorded tracks.

Okay then, I was always under the impression iMuse worked with MIDI only. My mistake.

Regardless, it seems to me just from a fan of these games that the switchover from MIDI to recorded audio fundamentally changed the way in which interactive music was used. That's all I meant.

[Chris]

Okay then, I was always under the impression iMuse worked with MIDI only. My mistake.

Regardless, it seems to me just from a fan of these games that the switchover from MIDI to recorded audio fundamentally changed the way in which interactive music was used. That's all I meant.

It's less impressive than in MI2 for sure, but there are a couple factors to bear in mind. One, MI2's soundtrack required an incredible amount of time and money for a result that is awesome but also not likely to pay off significantly or, in all honestly, be noticed by your average person who isn't aware of it or paying close attention to the music. The irony is that the more effective it is, the more it should just blend into the overall texture of the scene.

Two, game soundtracks were undeniably moving away from MIDI as CD-ROM drives and larger hard drives allowed for full recorded tracks, and by 1995 or 1998 I think the dated sound of that style for most gamers would outweigh the gains of interactivity.

It is of course possible to simply use MIDI control to drive interactive music using individually-sampled recordings (and that's what a lot of later LucasArts games did, but not necessarily in a very granular way), but even that I think is often determined to be too much effort for the practical payoff.

[Patters]

On the subject of iMuse, the back of my KotoR box has the logo, and I wonder to what extent that game used it.

[Nappi]

On the subject of iMuse, the back of my KotoR box has the logo, and I wonder to what extent that game used it.

Mine only has the Creative EAX Advanced HD logo. I think your box might be full of shit.

[Patters]

Mine only has the Creative EAX Advanced HD logo. I think your box might be full of shit.

That's what I'm thinking unless it is different on the Xbox to PC (mines the Xbox).

[CatsPoopInShoe]

May I ask quite different question?

Isn't that nostalgia turning new games into shit? Maybe thought of "motherfucking ANYTHING-POSTED-HERE" is dropping a fog grenade and you cannot see today's adventure games?

I understand admiration for old p'n'c adventure games. I understand point of discussion. But look at this thread! All in here is babling how great were 2-3 games, bitching about Syberia, it's yata-yata-premiere and strolling to HALF-LIFE 2 as influence(sic!) for point and click games ( no examples how 'd that happen).

There are still good games in genera. Not always great like Runaway 2 etc. But still good, worth playing. Secret Files series, Art of Murder series, Undercover, Ni Bi Ru.

And if you cannot handle them. Time to wipe your ass, clean your diaper and move on granpas.

Genera is still strong, still there are players(females tho mostly). There is just not that much of budget for p'n'c adventure games. That's why they might miss a bit and lack behind "those-beloved".

I frequently see on forums where people are disappointed over and over again with new games like Runaway 3, Still Life 2, and Ankh yet still buy them all just because of the genre

Fixed. And yeah. Want know frustration? Play Still Life 2. Stopping by for a shitty-chat while you dieing from a poison is just worth it.

Please guys, I seriously don't want sound like total "douche-knows-p'n'c" but for the love of gods. We were supposed to talk about Adventure games TODAY. Oh wait, my Windows clock ain't work right.

PS. Yeah, and starting conversation with console version of a S&M if point and click adventures games "are still good/nostalgia works or not/unintuitive controls ar bad" feels to me like asking if RTS' are still good with Halo Wars as and example of awkwardness.

Peacu lovu and otheru-shitu-animu.

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[Chris]

I think nostalgia definitely has a huge impact on people's perceptions, but I played Syberia when it came out and when I was playing pretty much every major adventure game as it was coming out, because I wrote for an adventure game site, and I really just did find it very boring. It came off quite sterile and slow to me. I see where you're coming from, but it doesn't imply that newer games are also automatically good. Some are good, and some are bad, just like the old games.

Similarly, old games are not automatically good either, but we don't talk very much about the bad old games, because they are both bad and old. At least the good old games are good.

I also can't really address all your points, because you bring up a lot, but it seems like in some cases (for example, Half-Life 2) you're just picking something that one person mentioned for a couple words in the middle of one sentence in one post, and then nobody else actually discussed any further.

But it's worth noting that the original poster is saying he now thinks he might just be tired of the genre and its gameplay entirely. I don't read his post as saying "The old ones are good and the new ones are bad," he's saying that when the old ones came out, he was willing to invest himself in that style of gameplay, but now he has grown tired of it. That's just bad luck for the new games. I don't think that's nostalgia, I think that's just changing taste. Certainly the declining fortunes of the adventure game genre would suggest he's not the only one.

[syntheticgerbil]

There are still good games in genera. Not always great like Runaway 2 etc. But still good, worth playing. Secret Files series, Art of Murder series, Undercover, Ni Bi Ru.

Since I was the only person you quoted in your long post, I guess this warrants a reply. I'm sure I'm up for, "you can't talk about those games because you didn't play them" but everything you listed looks incredibly boring and I have no plans to play them ever. Maybe developers should be working harder to make interesting adventures that will attract older adventures players who've already, "been there, done that." Part of it is though, I think they are doing just fine with the niche of budget players, so why would they want to change?

And second all Runaways are crap. They are ugly, poorly written (I know it's a translation!), poorly designed, and have idiotic generic characters. You also play as a "bro" in the second Runaway with a soul patch. Why would I want to do that unless I'm playing a game where he swallows razor blades and does not solve any puzzles? I've played the first Runaway... never again. Especially since you changed my quote to only say 3 was bad.

Of course it doesn't help that most of the adventure games you listed and are released nowadays just end up in the $5-10 jewelcase bin at Office Depot a year or two later, which I'm sure is a testament to their quality as newer releases.

Please guys, I seriously don't want sound like total "douche-knows-p'n'c" ...

Oops, too late. Nice first post.

Similarly, old games are not automatically good either, but we don't talk very much about the bad old games, because they are both bad and old.

I can also agree with this because while most of the adventure games I love are all old, I can also name a bunch of terrible old ones I have played through or given up on before the predominant current dark, stale adventure game style that was started by The Longest Journey and Syberia. I'm sure I'll play more adventure games again when the inevitable style shift comes one day.

But egads, I don't want to see the game Down in the Dumps ever again!

Edited July 21, 2009 by syntheticgerbil

[CatsPoopInShoe]

Seems hitting hard will get you a cake.

I do not defend Syberia by any means. I think it was a pretty good game, but mostly, as been pointed out, due to score and set piece.

I see where he was coming from. I hit with Tsar Bomb because whole thread seemed went totally wrong way.

I 'd agree on changing taste.( As nostalgia it will have much of an impact especially on older gamers.) Although genera changed too. Attention to detail is smaller. Writing is still good, but while old games let you enjoy even stupid moves by throwing at you funny lines new p'n'c games seemed to rush story and serving "No, I cannot do that". As been said with Overclocked - they took a step back.

For me seems like it was mostly false requirement thrown by other generas. Almost all new games seem short, "casual", 15-minute play and move on. Almost every adventure game review ends with "too short". With pace and rushing the plot new games tend to even lack of good characters.

Yes, I 'd agree even on growing tired of it. Tho it seem to me other generas taught us to not invest as much time as old adventure games required. New p'n'c games gone shorter and "faster", tho they still require much more of time investment than other generas.

New adventure games lack some bits for good or bad sake. Tho they still provide me much better storyline and enjoyment then most new fps/rts/whatever releases.

Pot is almost the same as for any genera. Lot of in it. Need to dig a hand blindly hope for best or girth teeth put snags in nose, search for lego blocks and having fun from putting things together.

Time for a stroll .

EDIT

I'm sure I'm up for, "you can't talk about those games because you didn't play them"

Don't breath!

They are ugly, poorly written (I know it's a translation!), poorly designed, and have idiotic generic characters.

I'd vote for taste. It was sorth of slapstick where story is not the best part, at least imo. It landed on me well. Tho I don't like slapstick very much.

Of course it doesn't help that most of the adventure games you listed and are released nowadays just end up in the $5-10 jewelcase bin at Office Depot a year or two later, which I'm sure is a testament to their quality as newer releases.

Thing is almost every major release here ( Europe) either FPS or RTS lands in "jewelcase" series. Cheap one, in even one or half year later. While adventure games are still pretty pricey. It comes down to markets and consoles that are not so strong as in USA i guess.

I'm sure I'll play more adventure games again when the inevitable style shift comes one day.

I wouldn't count on that to be honest. It's niche as you said, and those don't change too often.

Edited July 21, 2009 by CatsPoopInShoe

[syntheticgerbil]

Pot is almost the same as for any genera. Lot of in it. Need to dig a hand blindly hope for best or girth teeth put snags in nose, search for lego blocks and having fun from putting things together.

Time for a stroll .

Is this a poem about marijuana?

[CatsPoopInShoe]

I'm doing great even without that as you see. High on oxygen.

[toblix]

I think that the reason I still love the adventure games I played in my youth (everything LucasArts, BaSS, etc) is that I completed them back when I was prepared to spend the required time figuring out all the puzzles. I would never in a million years spend so many hours on a game today, walking around and not knowing where to go next, making zero progress. I did back then, and I'm glad, because when I load up all these old games I play through them easily.

You could say I'm just going through the motions, and that it's something pathetic, but I think to me it's become more like watching a movie for the second or third time. The first time is the most challening one, where you don't know what's coming, and you have to pick up all this new information. After that first time the experience is a radically different one, to me. When I play Monkey Island now, I don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out puzzles. I enjoy trying to remember the solutions, but it's not long before I use a hint. I also see I have a much lower tolerance for watching a dude walking from screen to screen when I know where I'm going. The map in Time Gentlemen, Please should be in every game.

Thinking about it, it makes me slightly sad that if, say, Fate of Atlantis, the game I consider to be the best adventure game ever, came out today (with graphics, sound, etc. adjusted for today's standards), but with the same gameplay, I'd probably give up after a couple of hours. I would never ever play it through multiple times to try the different paths. So I start to wonder if the reason that I still consider these old adventure games to be so much more better than anything that has come out since, is not that the new ones are worse, but that I've "lost" the ability to play them, the required attention span and patience for good puzzles.

Either that, or I've played all the awesome adventure games (the Broken Sword games just came to mind, too) and they just don't make them like that any more.

[Chris]

Thinking about it, it makes me slightly sad that if, say, Fate of Atlantis, the game I consider to be the best adventure game ever, came out today (with graphics, sound, etc. adjusted for today's standards), but with the same gameplay, I'd probably give up after a couple of hours. I would never ever play it through multiple times to try the different paths. So I start to wonder if the reason that I still consider these old adventure games to be so much more better than anything that has come out since, is not that the new ones are worse, but that I've "lost" the ability to play them, the required attention span and patience for good puzzles.

Yeah, this is basically what I meant in my post as well. It would probably be the same for me.

[Erkki]

All in here is babling how great were 2-3 games, bitching about Syberia, it's yata-yata-premiere and strolling to HALF-LIFE 2 as influence(sic!) for point and click games ( no examples how 'd that happen).

I think you may have misunderstood me. I never said Half-Life 2 influenced point & click games. I said I wish Half-Life 2 *would have* influenced adventure games by now. In other words, I wish adventure games would have evolved beyond the point & click formula and find other ways to do story-focused games which don't have combat as their main gameplay mechanic. Not that point & click is bad but there are other ways to do adventure games -- Penumbra for example (it still has a little different form of point & click though).

[toblix]

I think a big part of it is that there's a pretty big gap between the technology used for traditional 2D point and click games and pretty much everything else, except puzzle games, though some of these are pretty advanced tech-wise. Maybe moving the genre "closer" to anything else is so demanding you wouldn't want to just use the new technology sparingly.

For example, adding physics simulation to a point and click game like Broken Sword would require a tremendous effort, probably to such a degree that almost every puzzle would have to be about stacking, falling and bouncing.

This may be a stupid argument and example. Thank you.

[syntheticgerbil]

I think a big part of it is that there's a pretty big gap between the technology used for traditional 2D point and click games and pretty much everything else, except puzzle games, though some of these are pretty advanced tech-wise. Maybe moving the genre "closer" to anything else is so demanding you wouldn't want to just use the new technology sparingly.

For example, adding physics simulation to a point and click game like Broken Sword would require a tremendous effort, probably to such a degree that almost every puzzle would have to be about stacking, falling and bouncing.

This may be a stupid argument and example. Thank you.

Well apparently going into 3D made every Broken Sword puzzle about pushing crates around.

But more seriously, you mention puzzle games, which aren't going to change in terms of setup. Good puzzle games usually use a tried and true formula for addiction, only making their graphics better over the years. I don't necessarily have a problem with that changing and can enjoy an old puzzle game just as much as a new one. I feel in most part the same about adventures.

Realistically, even though everyone made fun of them at the time, I think one of the few ways you could evolve an adventure was by turning them into "action-adventures" which is a stupid name for a genre and has worn out it's welcome anyway. I like to think of it merging the best parts of a thinking-man's action game like Another World or Prince of Persia (and later Oddworld) with the sensibilities of a game where you must talk to characters and have an inventory system. So you get games like Beyond Good and Evil, which in my head is basically an adventure game because it's very action light and the stealth sequences are very puzzle oriented. It would have been nice if the game used more inventory interaction and relied on conversing with characters more, but it was pretty experimental.

I'm really having a hard time of thinking of another game that balances the adventure aspects and is new like Beyond Good and Evil. Maybe someone else can name some?

The other half of adventure games that aren't 3rd person point and click where it's just 1st person doing puzzles only, or Myst-clones as some would say, are just never going to evolve. A part of me thinks that Full Throttle being lumped into the same genre as Riven has hurt the genre over the years, Gabriel Knight 3 puzzles aside. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but sometimes I'd rather call these "puzzle games" except when I think of puzzle games I think of Wario's Woods. I think a lot of new adventurers get excited about one or the other and get confused when recommended games from both classes of adventure. I see a lot of people try to distinguish what they are saying on forums by asking people to recommend "cartoon adventure games" but that's sort of selling the 3rd person aspect short.

[lobotomy42]

Well apparently going into 3D made every Broken Sword puzzle about pushing crates around.

But more seriously, you mention puzzle games, which aren't going to change in terms of setup. Good puzzle games usually use a tried and true formula for addiction, only making their graphics better over the years. I don't necessarily have a problem with that changing and can enjoy an old puzzle game just as much as a new one. I feel in most part the same about adventures.

Realistically, even though everyone made fun of them at the time, I think one of the few ways you could evolve an adventure was by turning them into "action-adventures" which is a stupid name for a genre and has worn out it's welcome anyway. I like to think of it merging the best parts of a thinking-man's action game like Another World or Prince of Persia (and later Oddworld) with the sensibilities of a game where you must talk to characters and have an inventory system. So you get games like Beyond Good and Evil, which in my head is basically an adventure game because it's very action light and the stealth sequences are very puzzle oriented. It would have been nice if the game used more inventory interaction and relied on conversing with characters more, but it was pretty experimental.

I'm really having a hard time of thinking of another game that balances the adventure aspects and is new like Beyond Good and Evil. Maybe someone else can name some?

The other half of adventure games that aren't 3rd person point and click where it's just 1st person doing puzzles only, or Myst-clones as some would say, are just never going to evolve. A part of me thinks that Full Throttle being lumped into the same genre as Riven has hurt the genre over the years, Gabriel Knight 3 puzzles aside. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but sometimes I'd rather call these "puzzle games" except when I think of puzzle games I think of Wario's Woods. I think a lot of new adventurers get excited about one or the other and get confused when recommended games from both classes of adventure. I see a lot of people try to distinguish what they are saying on forums by asking people to recommend "cartoon adventure games" but that's sort of selling the 3rd person aspect short.

Dreamfall and Indigo Prophecy / Fahrenheit immediately come to mine. Neither of these were totally successful, but they were certainly both attempts at using "newish" technology on a primarily story-driven game. (And, coming up, Heavy Rain.) I'm not sure which genre you'd label Ico other than adventure. Nintendo has consistently referred to the Zelda series as adventure. BG&E and Okami are in many ways inspired by that series - I think it would be fair to say that these are also in some sense adventure games, or at least hybrids.

For that matter, have you played any survival horror game prior to Resident Evil 4? The gameplay in Resident Evil 1, 2, 3, CV, and 0 pretty closely mirrors what one might find in, say, Grim Fandango and Escape from Monkey Island, right down to the control scheme. The only difference is the addition of shooting zombies - but even this "shooting" is not anything like a traditional shooter, and mostly just involves holding down the "aim" button and then pressing "shoot." They are also usually fairly story-heavy, even if it may not be a particularly good story.

Additionally, although these aren't exactly what you describe, there are other attempts at doing adventures that aren't just re-hash of the point-n-click formula.

The Phoenix Wright series is essentially adventure - parts of it are p'n'c, but the meat of it is in the courtroom, which is really about listening to testimony and thinking carefully about the logic of what people are saying.

Hotel Dusk and Another Code (now with a Wii version I haven't played) both integrate some 3D exploration with dialogue, story-telling and puzzles.

Finally, there's also been a push in the other direction towards the more casual market - the hidden object and puzzle games that keep adding more and more story and, in at least one case, an inventory.

In general, I think the adventure genre has done a pretty good job at evolving with the times and blending its style of gameplay with the action genre and others. However, these games just seem reluctant to categorize themselves as "adventure."

[syntheticgerbil]

Dreamfall and Indigo Prophecy / Fahrenheit immediately come to mine. Neither of these were totally successful, but they were certainly both attempts at using "newish" technology on a primarily story-driven game. (And, coming up, Heavy Rain.) I'm not sure which genre you'd label Ico other than adventure. Nintendo has consistently referred to the Zelda series as adventure. BG&E and Okami are in many ways inspired by that series - I think it would be fair to say that these are also in some sense adventure games, or at least hybrids.

For that matter, have you played any survival horror game prior to Resident Evil 4? The gameplay in Resident Evil 1, 2, 3, CV, and 0 pretty closely mirrors what one might find in, say, Grim Fandango and Escape from Monkey Island, right down to the control scheme. The only difference is the addition of shooting zombies - but even this "shooting" is not anything like a traditional shooter, and mostly just involves holding down the "aim" button and then pressing "shoot." They are also usually fairly story-heavy, even if it may not be a particularly good story.

Additionally, although these aren't exactly what you describe, there are other attempts at doing adventures that aren't just re-hash of the point-n-click formula.

The Phoenix Wright series is essentially adventure - parts of it are p'n'c, but the meat of it is in the courtroom, which is really about listening to testimony and thinking carefully about the logic of what people are saying.

Hotel Dusk and Another Code (now with a Wii version I haven't played) both integrate some 3D exploration with dialogue, story-telling and puzzles.

Finally, there's also been a push in the other direction towards the more casual market - the hidden object and puzzle games that keep adding more and more story and, in at least one case, an inventory.

In general, I think the adventure genre has done a pretty good job at evolving with the times and blending its style of gameplay with the action genre and others. However, these games just seem reluctant to categorize themselves as "adventure."

Thank you, I completely forgot about Ico which is also in the same vein. I know Beyond Good and Evil is in many ways a Zelda clone, but it feels much closer to adventure than any Zelda game, even though Wind Waker was definitely further in that step. I guess there's too many of the systematic things that Chris talked about a few podcasts ago as representing an RPG for me to completely feel like I'm playing an adventure game when I play Zelda. I have not played Okami, but it is on my list for one day in the future. I assume it's closer to Beyond Good and Evil than a 3D Zelda?

I've played a few parts of Resident Evil 2 and 4 (and others over the years), but I've never sat down and finished them. RE2 especially felt very systematic with the constant searching for keys and ink cartridges for your typewriters in order to get to the next part. I think the strung out stuff really makes the games more suited to their genre name as survival horror even though there are adventure game elements incorporated.

I guess I think of the DS games you named as mostly just regular adventures, although tied more to a linear interactive story the way some Japanese adventures have been like Snatcher, but I'm clueless on what they are doing different or new as I have not played any you listed. When I free up some of my backlog games, I'm definitely planning to check out the plethora of DS adventures.

Definitely though, with everything you listed, to me it seems to go with my feeling that it is much more viable for the third person character oriented adventure to evolve than the likes of Myst, Riven, Lighthouse, and Amerzone. I really liked a few podcasts ago when Chris was talking about how every genre since the mid-90s has seemed to have merged traditional adventure aspects into their story. I think that has also had a lot to do with making me more open to different genres as I get older as well.